The Emperor knew of the Horus Heresy?

[TorvaldTheMild]

When the Emperor went to Molech to make the deal with the Chaos Gods, I think one of the deals was that he'd get the Primarchs that he wanted but he'd only get half and the other half would go to Chaos.  If you think about it, the only Primarchs that he treated badly or with distain were the traitor Primarchs, especially if you think about Angron and how he whimsically decided not to save Angrons brothers and sisters when he saved and let Russ' and Lorgars human brothers and sisters become either astartes or at least part of their legions.  There is no logic behind how he treated Angron and Lorgar (you might say Magnus but the Emperor only wanted to chastise Magnus not kill him or destroy his legion, so many people forget that fact).  Yes Horus was his favourite son but maybe he didn't know which would be loyal and which would turn, Angron, Cruze and Mortarion would be obvious in knowing they'd turn.  Maybe the Emperor treated them so badly to push them to turn to chaos as they were the most broken of Primarchs and he wanted to keep what he saw as the greatest Primarchs. Also the way he always said that Russ was his most loyal and would never turn.  Its food for thought.

Edited December 11, 2020 by TorvaldTheMild

[SkimaskMohawk]

Mortarion and his desire to block sorcery was catered to by the emperor.

 

Fulgrim was highly honored.

 

Horus was the favorite.

 

Magnus wasn't meant to be killed and was the most likely candidate for the throne.

 

 

Pretty sure the dropsite massacre was a thing because they thought the reinforcements were loyal.

[TorvaldTheMild]

Mortarion and his desire to block sorcery was catered to by the emperor.

 

Fulgrim was highly honored.

 

Horus was the favorite.

 

Magnus wasn't meant to be killed and was the most likely candidate for the throne.

 

 

Pretty sure the dropsite massacre was a thing because they thought the reinforcements were loyal.

I don't know what you are asking or suggesting.

[Scribe]

Unfortunately, there is no good argument for the treatment of Angron. ADB touches on this at least twice.

 

My one remaining hope for the HH series, is that the deal with Chaos is confirmed, and exposed.

[DarkChaplain]

The reasons for why he treated Angron the way he did are implied in various stories, including Ghosts of Nuceria by Ian St. Martin.

 

It's a combination of needing to be expedient about the Crusade, political problems with Compliance, disgust at how broken Angron became - and how his gifts were taken; Angron used to be highly empathic and able to soothe his companions psychically, which was utterly destroyed by the Nails, and replaced with sheer agony when psychically interacted with, resulting in Angron suffering when even just being in the Emperor's presence.

 

The Emperor couldn't fix him, Angron was broken and his original purpose probably lost. Whether that's all there is to it is highly debatable, but it seems likely that the Emperor just gave up actively engaging with him after trying to find ways to remove the Nails and restore him - and failing - and seeing how Angron turned his Legion into suicidal butchers, before forcing the Nails on them, too.

 

Either way, there was no "whimsy" about him not saving Angron's companions. By the time Angron was teleported out, he was literally about to be obliterated, and most of his brothers and sisters were already dead. He was almost alone on the field, and his retrieval was a clutch measure when he refused to listen.

The difference between his case and Russ's is that the Emperor was at liberty to visit Russ in person, like he did with many others, and Russ welcomed him into his hall. They had a brawl about joining up, but there was no malice involved, no war going on, no danger to Russ or the Emperor. Besides, Russ was the second to be found, and the Emperor was really excited about finally finding him - even as Horus wasn't thrilled.

 

Mortarion was given honors at multiple occasions, including right at the start when he was granted free pickings from the Emperor's archaeotech. He also spent significant time at Terra, and was introduced to the Webway Project, likely as the only one among his brothers. The worst the Emperor did to him would be letting him run at the Overlord by himself / challenging him to it, as a means to teach Mortarion his own limits and blunt his arrogance.

 

Curze wasn't left to rot either. He just continued breaking and going down a path that wasn't palatable. It wasn't even the Emperor who ultimately tried reining him in, but Horus. Curze was attached to the Salamanders and White Scars, as well as the Sons of Horus, after they apprehended him in the wake of Nostramo getting blown up. This was after Curze had a fit / vision of the Heresy and nearly killed Dorn. Horus simply decided, after Davin, when his turn came (after the Scars and Sallies had Curze under their wings) that he prefered the Night Haunter, and accelerated his fall.

 

Perturabo, for completion's sake, had a massive martyr complex combined with a superiority complex. He wasn't necessarily assigned the hard, meatgrinder tasks - he basically forced himself upon them in an attempt to prove something to himself and the others. He was upset, too, that his skills for warfare were more relevant to the galactic crusade than his skills as a builder of art.

 

Lorgar, meanwhile, was being allowed to do his thing for decades before the Emperor called it enough and Monarchia happened - fun fact, Guilliman wasn't happy about his involvement there, either. He had been warned about his faith nonsense countless times but thought he knew better, that the Emperor was a God anyway, and he had to enlighten the galaxy. Was Monarchia harsh? Yes. But Lorgar had it coming in some capacity, due to his own choices.

 

Magnus was one of the Emperor's favorites and closest sons. He had many special privileges, including years of psychic communion before being found. The Emperor probably taught him the most of all his sons. It was, again, Magnus' own choices and arrogance that led him down his path - and even by the end, during the Siege, he was offered forgiveness and a return to the fold, if only he was willing to let go of his sins.

 

 

There are plenty of angles you could look at regarding the Heresy being predicted, foreseen, planned, but frankly, no, the Emperor might have planned for obsolescence at some point, but it certainly wasn't supposed to give Chaos a complete stranglehold on the galaxy after taking it back only halfway.

[Karhedron]

The short story "Wolf of Ash and Fire" confirms that the Emperor knew Horus would turn on him but went ahead anyway.

 

There is a short story where Malcador talks to a dying friend near the end of the Heresy and explains that the Heresy was engineered. The Emp knew the Primarchs had been compromised. With the Great Crusade nearing its conclusion and the Webway project proceeding, he needed a way to weed out those most likely to cause trouble if the Legions were downsized. Horus was given the authority, tools and information to turn traitor. He would take whichever of his brothers were most troublesome with him. The Emperor would then be able to use Imperial Webway to outmaneuver the traitors and eliminate them when they showed their true colours.

 

The trouble is that it was supposed to be a strictly secular rebellion. The Emperor didn't forsee Chaos getting involved or quite so many Legions turning. Fulgrim had no reason to turn and was seduced by the daemon sword. Alpharius knew about Chaos and should have known better than to start playing both sides. Magnus was going to be brought to Terra, not killed. But then Chaos tricked Magnus into sabotaging the Webway, the influence of Chaos allowed Horus to turn more Primarchs than the Emperor anticipated, the Istvaan massacre devastated 3 Legions the Emperor had been counting on the Ruinstorm cut off the Ultras, Blood Angels and Dark Angels in Ultramar.

 

Malcador reassured his friend that whilst things had gone a bit off-kilter, it was still within the parameters of the plan and the situation could be salvaged. After the friend died though, Malcador wished he had not had to lie so we don't really know for sure how much of what he said was true.

[TorvaldTheMild]

The reasons for why he treated Angron the way he did are implied in various stories, including Ghosts of Nuceria by Ian St. Martin.

 

It's a combination of needing to be expedient about the Crusade, political problems with Compliance, disgust at how broken Angron became - and how his gifts were taken; Angron used to be highly empathic and able to soothe his companions psychically, which was utterly destroyed by the Nails, and replaced with sheer agony when psychically interacted with, resulting in Angron suffering when even just being in the Emperor's presence.

 

The Emperor couldn't fix him, Angron was broken and his original purpose probably lost. Whether that's all there is to it is highly debatable, but it seems likely that the Emperor just gave up actively engaging with him after trying to find ways to remove the Nails and restore him - and failing - and seeing how Angron turned his Legion into suicidal butchers, before forcing the Nails on them, too.

 

Either way, there was no "whimsy" about him not saving Angron's companions. By the time Angron was teleported out, he was literally about to be obliterated, and most of his brothers and sisters were already dead. He was almost alone on the field, and his retrieval was a clutch measure when he refused to listen.

The difference between his case and Russ's is that the Emperor was at liberty to visit Russ in person, like he did with many others, and Russ welcomed him into his hall. They had a brawl about joining up, but there was no malice involved, no war going on, no danger to Russ or the Emperor. Besides, Russ was the second to be found, and the Emperor was really excited about finally finding him - even as Horus wasn't thrilled.

 

Mortarion was given honors at multiple occasions, including right at the start when he was granted free pickings from the Emperor's archaeotech. He also spent significant time at Terra, and was introduced to the Webway Project, likely as the only one among his brothers. The worst the Emperor did to him would be letting him run at the Overlord by himself / challenging him to it, as a means to teach Mortarion his own limits and blunt his arrogance.

 

Curze wasn't left to rot either. He just continued breaking and going down a path that wasn't palatable. It wasn't even the Emperor who ultimately tried reining him in, but Horus. Curze was attached to the Salamanders and White Scars, as well as the Sons of Horus, after they apprehended him in the wake of Nostramo getting blown up. This was after Curze had a fit / vision of the Heresy and nearly killed Dorn. Horus simply decided, after Davin, when his turn came (after the Scars and Sallies had Curze under their wings) that he prefered the Night Haunter, and accelerated his fall.

 

Perturabo, for completion's sake, had a massive martyr complex combined with a superiority complex. He wasn't necessarily assigned the hard, meatgrinder tasks - he basically forced himself upon them in an attempt to prove something to himself and the others. He was upset, too, that his skills for warfare were more relevant to the galactic crusade than his skills as a builder of art.

 

Lorgar, meanwhile, was being allowed to do his thing for decades before the Emperor called it enough and Monarchia happened - fun fact, Guilliman wasn't happy about his involvement there, either. He had been warned about his faith nonsense countless times but thought he knew better, that the Emperor was a God anyway, and he had to enlighten the galaxy. Was Monarchia harsh? Yes. But Lorgar had it coming in some capacity, due to his own choices.

 

Magnus was one of the Emperor's favorites and closest sons. He had many special privileges, including years of psychic communion before being found. The Emperor probably taught him the most of all his sons. It was, again, Magnus' own choices and arrogance that led him down his path - and even by the end, during the Siege, he was offered forgiveness and a return to the fold, if only he was willing to let go of his sins.

 

 

There are plenty of angles you could look at regarding the Heresy being predicted, foreseen, planned, but frankly, no, the Emperor might have planned for obsolescence at some point, but it certainly wasn't supposed to give Chaos a complete stranglehold on the galaxy after taking it back only halfway.

No it isn't, not in the slightest.  Angrons behaviour or lack of expediency is completely irrelevant.  The Emperor treated Angron with unfairness and from the get go, before he knew anything about Angron.  He never knew how broken he was.

 

There was whimsy about the Emperor not saving Angron, like in betrayer the Emperor had a full legion and the custodes and chose not to deploy them to help Angrons brothers and sisters.  Most of his brothers and sisters were not dead, he was not almost alone on the field you are just making that up.

 

There was no danger to the Emperor on Nuceria, he never set foot on Nuceria and the Nucerians were no danger at all to the Emperor, the custodes or the war hounds.

 

As for Mortarian the Emperor didn't show him the webway, he knew about it because he was imprisoned on Terra when the Emperor did no such thing to any other Primarch.  He knew it was a gate but had no idea what it was:

 

Malcador took Mortarion back up to his personal chambers, high up on the slopes overlooking the vast sprawl of the palace’s grand halls and spires. The Sigillite had spent more than a mortal lifetime making it a place of beauty and sanctuary, but Mortarion seemed barely to notice what had been placed there. The primarch simply stood on the polished marble, exuding vapours, his breathing a coarse scrape. ‘I would see my father now.’ ‘The Emperor is not available,’ Malcador replied. ‘Where is he?’ ‘I do not know.’ Mortarion snorted. ‘You know his every movement. You know his every thought.’ ‘No. No man knows those things.’ Mortarion started pacing, kicking aside priceless pieces of antique furniture as he went. ‘He cannot keep me here for much longer. He tries my patience.’ ‘Your Legion awaits you, and the last preparations are being made. You will join them soon enough.’ Mortarion turned on him, his eyes flashing with frustrated anger. ‘Then why imprison me here? Did he do this to any of my brothers?’ Malcador noticed the edge of unreason in his guest’s face, and wondered if it was getting worse. All the gene-progeny of the Great Project had been damaged by the scattering, but Mortarion’s wounds ran deeper than most. Angron had been physically damaged, and Curze’s mind had sunk into darkness, but Mortarion seemed to have been inherited something of both as heck lictions. The Emperor’s desire to keep him a while on Terra prior to joining the Crusade had been motivated from the highest intentions, just as all the decisions they had jointly made had been. That did not mean that it was the right decision, nor that the poisons could all be extracted… ‘You were all given dif erent gifts,’ explained Malcador patiently. ‘You have all had dif erent trials.’ ‘None had more than I,’ muttered Mortarion. ‘I know you believe that.’ Mortarion turned back to the view, wrinkling his grey skin against the glare. ‘You have done nothing but preach at me since I was brought here. You talk of the Imperial Truth, and yet you are neck-deep in witchery.’ He grimaced beneath his rebreather, making the skin around his temples wrinkle. ‘I can smell it on you. As soon as I leave your presence, you will be back at your spellbook.’ Malcador suppressed a sigh. This again. ‘There are no spells, Mortarion. You know that.’ ‘What is the gate you are building down there?’ ‘I did not say it was a gate.’ ‘It has eight sides. It is surrounded by numerological symbols. I could smell the incense.’ ‘Your father has many projects.’ The primarch nodded. ‘He does. He starts many things, and discards them when they no longer keep His interest. There are times when I think He may have started too many, and that they will come back to haunt Him.’ ‘There is a purpose,’ Malcador replied. ‘A design. Some things He is able to explain now, and some He will explain later. All we ask – all we have ever asked – is for a little trust.’ When Mortarion made his move, it was surprisingly quick. He whirled, his gauntlet flashing out, catching the frail lord by the neck and gripping tight. Malcador struggled for breath, looking up into the mask of sudden hatred now looming over him. The primarch still bore the stench of Barbarus upon his armour. ‘Trust?’ Mortarion hissed. ‘I see your foulness before me, as plain as the sun. You are a sorcerer, old man, and the stink of it makes me wish to vomit.’ For once, Malcador struggled for the right words. He could have used his art to defend himself, but that would only enrage the primarch further. There was so much subtlety at stake – the nature of the psyker, the proper use of the human mind – but such arguments were hard to formulate with a geneforged fist around one’s throat. Then Mortarion let go as suddenly as he had grasped him and snorted contemptuously as Malcador only barely found his feet. ‘You must think me stupid,’ he snarled. ‘A peasant of Barbarus, not fit to walk the same paths as my illustrious brothers. But I see through you, old man. I see what you are, and I tell you this – I will never serve in your Crusade while there are witches among us.’ Mortarion’s toxin-spoiled voice shook with fervour, but Malcador composed himself. At one time or another, all of the primarchs had exerted their strength in his presence. They seemed to enjoy demonstrating their physical prowess over him, as if perpetually resentful of his privileged place at their father’s side. He had gotten used to letting the slights pass. ‘Do you… really mean… that?’ Malcador managed to ask, and Mortarion’s glower was all the confirmation he needed. ‘Very well. I had hoped to show you this later… when matters were at a greater stage of readiness… but perhaps now will serve.’ He brushed down his robes, trying not to show just how much Mortarion’s choking grip had pained him, and gestured towards a pair of mahogany doors that led to a chamber normally of -limits to all but himself and the Emperor. ‘After you. I think you will find this… interesting.’

Cruze did not have a good relationship with the Emperor and was chastised by him.

 

Lorgar was not allowed to spread his faith the Emperor was a secularist and chastised him a plenty before he raised Mornarchia to the ground.  (you are just arguing for the sake of arguing and making up :cuss)

 

I never said that Magnus wasn't, you have to re-read my OP.

[The Scorpion]

Unfortunately, there is no good argument for the treatment of Angron. ADB touches on this at least twice.

 

My one remaining hope for the HH series, is that the deal with Chaos is confirmed, and exposed.

 

I believe the reason for the treatment of Angron was that the Emperor found him broken. The Emperor's utilitarian mind saw no point in investing on a son that was living on borrowed time and instead tried to squeeze every last drop of utility out of him.

 

He wasn't allowed to keep a Luther or a Kor Phaeron because there was no future for Angron. At least there wasn't until Lorgar found a solution that was arguably worse than death: freedom from the nails in exchange to an eternity of slavery at the service of the Blood God.

[TorvaldTheMild]

The short story "Wolf of Ash and Fire" confirms that the Emperor knew Horus would turn on him but went ahead anyway.

 

There is a short story where Malcador talks to a dying friend near the end of the Heresy and explains that the Heresy was engineered. The Emp knew the Primarchs had been compromised. With the Great Crusade nearing its conclusion and the Webway project proceeding, he needed a way to weed out those most likely to cause trouble if the Legions were downsized. Horus was given the authority, tools and information to turn traitor. He would take whichever of his brothers were most troublesome with him. The Emperor would then be able to use Imperial Webway to outmaneuver the traitors and eliminate them when they showed their true colours.

 

The trouble is that it was supposed to be a strictly secular rebellion. The Emperor didn't forsee Chaos getting involved or quite so many Legions turning. Fulgrim had no reason to turn and was seduced by the daemon sword. Alpharius knew about Chaos and should have known better than to start playing both sides. Magnus was going to be brought to Terra, not killed. But then Chaos tricked Magnus into sabotaging the Webway, the influence of Chaos allowed Horus to turn more Primarchs than the Emperor anticipated, the Istvaan massacre devastated 3 Legions the Emperor had been counting on the Ruinstorm cut off the Ultras, Blood Angels and Dark Angels in Ultramar.

 

Malcador reassured his friend that whilst things had gone a bit off-kilter, it was still within the parameters of the plan and the situation could be salvaged. After the friend died though, Malcador wished he had not had to lie so we don't really know for sure how much of what he said was true.

Agreed but we also have to note that Malcador was stating that to a dying woman to make possibly her feel better.

[TorvaldTheMild]

 

Unfortunately, there is no good argument for the treatment of Angron. ADB touches on this at least twice.

 

My one remaining hope for the HH series, is that the deal with Chaos is confirmed, and exposed.

 

I believe the reason for the treatment of Angron was that the Emperor found him broken. The Emperor's utilitarian mind saw no point in investing on a son that was living on borrowed time and instead tried to squeeze every last drop of utility out of him.

 

He wasn't allowed to keep a Luther or a Kor Phaeron because there was no future for Angron. At least there wasn't until Lorgar found a solution that was arguably worse than death: freedom from the nails in exchange to an eternity of slavery at the service of the Blood God.

 

Again the Emperor never new he was broken, he teleported him onto the ship without knowing he was broken, he might have been able to sense it though but that is just conjecture.  Though that kind of bolsters my origional point if the Emperor knew he was broken at the time.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

Mortarion and his desire to block sorcery was catered to by the emperor.

 

Fulgrim was highly honored.

 

Horus was the favorite.

 

Magnus wasn't meant to be killed and was the most likely candidate for the throne.

 

 

Pretty sure the dropsite massacre was a thing because they thought the reinforcements were loyal.

I don't know what you are asking or suggesting.

Dark chaplain put far more effort into explaining it than I did, or that you put into understanding the emperor didn't know primarchs were going to fall to chaos and treat those specific ones badly. Edited December 11, 2020 by SkimaskMohawk

[TorvaldTheMild]

 

 

Mortarion and his desire to block sorcery was catered to by the emperor.

 

Fulgrim was highly honored.

 

Horus was the favorite.

 

Magnus wasn't meant to be killed and was the most likely candidate for the throne.

 

 

Pretty sure the dropsite massacre was a thing because they thought the reinforcements were loyal.

I don't know what you are asking or suggesting.

Dark chaplain but far more effort into explaining it than I did, or that you put into understanding the emperor didn't know primarchs were going to fall to chaos and treat those specific ones badly.

 

Yet with all that effort he was wrong.

[Scribe]

 

 

Unfortunately, there is no good argument for the treatment of Angron. ADB touches on this at least twice.

 

My one remaining hope for the HH series, is that the deal with Chaos is confirmed, and exposed.

I believe the reason for the treatment of Angron was that the Emperor found him broken. The Emperor's utilitarian mind saw no point in investing on a son that was living on borrowed time and instead tried to squeeze every last drop of utility out of him.

 

He wasn't allowed to keep a Luther or a Kor Phaeron because there was no future for Angron. At least there wasn't until Lorgar found a solution that was arguably worse than death: freedom from the nails in exchange to an eternity of slavery at the service of the Blood God.

That works.

[mc warhammer]

 

Mortarion and his desire to block sorcery was catered to by the emperor.

 

Fulgrim was highly honored.

 

Horus was the favorite.

 

Magnus wasn't meant to be killed and was the most likely candidate for the throne.

 

 

Pretty sure the dropsite massacre was a thing because they thought the reinforcements were loyal.

I don't know what you are asking or suggesting.

 

it was probably re this

 

If you think about it, the only Primarchs that he treated badly or with distain were the traitor Primarchs,

 

 

though tbf, you're not saying that all traitor primarchs were treated badly.  but if the idea is that emps had disdain for those he knew would turn, he should probably smacked those guys on the bum a few more times.

 

i'm ok with the idea that the emperor simply made mistakes.

 

i'm also ok with the idea that the emperor knew it was all gonna hit the fan and encouraged it.

 

truth may be somewhere in the middle.

[Karhedron]

"Master of Mankind" and "The Great Work" both give hints into the workings and limits of the Emperor's precognitive abilities. In MOM, he likens it to sailing a ship, he can see where he is going and can even see distant shores and islands. But he can't see things like dangerous reefs beneath the water and even if he reaches those distant islands, he can't always see where to land the ship.

 

In TGW, he also says that the ability is not consistent. He says that particular events can be just a vague intuition for centuries at a time and then one day crystalise into clear focus. Something as big as the Horus Heresy was probably hard to miss but Chaos probably put a lot of effort into obscuring as much detail as possible.

[Marshal Rohr]

The idea the emperor intended the Primarchs to turn in him is bad fiction, just straight up and down. Unfortunately, there’s enough ‘big reveals’ and ‘plot twists’ in canon people can argue it was intentional. If you disregard Black Library and focus solely on the Horus Heresy as a game setting, it drives home Horus wasn’t thrilled about who sided with him, which is why he leaned so heavily on the dependable ones (Mortarion, Perturabo) and sent the ones he didn’t really want out on fire and forget missions across the Galaxy. It’s just cleaner and there’s no room for ‘Just as Planned’ beard stroking by a character in one novel who was earlier shocked and mortified by the Heresy. This is one of the main benefits of the Heresy being alive via different media. If you live in the Black Book world, the BL novels don’t ruin your enjoyment. If you prefer the Heresy as a big grand narrative, the Black Books don’t ruin your enjoyment. Like at this point the main thing BL books contribute is names, ranks, locations, ships, and timeline entries. Edited December 12, 2020 by Marshal Rohr

[Elzender]

Karhedron, regarding the unexpected involvement of Chaos in the rebellion, I'm not very convinced about it. From what I understood, the Emperor made some kind of deal with Chaos in Molech to gather the necessary power to create the Primarchs, and they were also scattered by the Chaos Gods. I would find it hard to believe that the Emperor engineered a rebellion, but didn't consider the possibility of Chaos interference, given that he surely knew they had already interfered at least once. It would feel like a very naive take for the Emperor, which is not something he has been shown as in this series.

[Leif Bearclaw]

The short story "Wolf of Ash and Fire" confirms that the Emperor knew Horus would turn on him but went ahead anyway.

 

There is a short story where Malcador talks to a dying friend near the end of the Heresy and explains that the Heresy was engineered. The Emp knew the Primarchs had been compromised. With the Great Crusade nearing its conclusion and the Webway project proceeding, he needed a way to weed out those most likely to cause trouble if the Legions were downsized. Horus was given the authority, tools and information to turn traitor. He would take whichever of his brothers were most troublesome with him. The Emperor would then be able to use Imperial Webway to outmaneuver the traitors and eliminate them when they showed their true colours.

 

The trouble is that it was supposed to be a strictly secular rebellion. The Emperor didn't forsee Chaos getting involved or quite so many Legions turning. Fulgrim had no reason to turn and was seduced by the daemon sword. Alpharius knew about Chaos and should have known better than to start playing both sides. Magnus was going to be brought to Terra, not killed. But then Chaos tricked Magnus into sabotaging the Webway, the influence of Chaos allowed Horus to turn more Primarchs than the Emperor anticipated, the Istvaan massacre devastated 3 Legions the Emperor had been counting on the Ruinstorm cut off the Ultras, Blood Angels and Dark Angels in Ultramar.

 

Malcador reassured his friend that whilst things had gone a bit off-kilter, it was still within the parameters of the plan and the situation could be salvaged. After the friend died though, Malcador wished he had not had to lie so we don't really know for sure how much of what he said was true.

That story only really makes sense as 100% 'Malcador lying to a dying friend to make them feel better' though. 'Set up my most powerful and successful commander to rebel with an uncertain number of my own military' is a simply idiotic plan. Especially if Chaos getting involved (despite opposing Chaos apparently being the Emperor's primary motivation) was so unexpected it broke the plan, then the plan was terrible. 'This plan will work as long as my undefeated primary antagonists don't get in the way' is not the sort of plan an individual as intelligent and experienced as the Emperor is meant to be should be implementing. 'Evil will triumph because good is dumb' is a parody line for a reason. It should not be a foundational aspect of a narrative the authors appear to want to be taken seriously.

 

If Empy was concerned that some of the Primarchs/Legions would get uppity in a post-Crusade world concentrating them together in one 'faction' is the worst possible way to address it. Far easier to do something like keep malcontents isolated, on long range deployments on the fringes and if military strikes are required you can engineer local superiority with reliable forces to catch the targets (who don't know they're for a purging) with their trousers down and mop them up in short order, preventing the formation of a united front of rebels against you. Then it doesn't matter if 9 instead of 6 Primarchs and Legions need a purging if you can take them as series of 'rebel Primarch and Legion vs 2/3 loyal Legions and the Talons' engagements. Now, this plan could of course also go off the rails, but it has less chance of sparking an Imperium-wide civil war than 'set up the Horus Heresy, but a bit weaker' does.

[Scribe]

The only angle the 'just as planned' argument makes sense with, is if the Emperor famed and noted arrogance is indeed TOWERING arrogance.

 

That he did not care if he had to plan around betrayal, because he would triumph regardless. That the Primarch's would obey without question, because he said so.

 

Its how I reconcile the 'tragedy' of the Emperor. He made all these obvious mistakes, not because of a lack of intellect, but because of his own staggering level of arrogance.

[Karhedron]

Master of Mankind provides the best explanation I think which was the Emperor was massively pressed for time. The Fall of the Eldar created a power vacuum at the top of the galactic hierarchy but there was only a narrow window of time for humanity to exploit the opportunity. If humanity was too slow off the mark some other species would have taken over the top-spot (quite possibly Orks) and humanity would be doomed to slow strangulation.

 

The Emperor had no choice. He had to launch the GC when he did and he had to use the Primarchs as they were the only leaders who could conquer the galaxy in the timeframe required. The abduction of the Primarchs put him in a no-win situation. He had to make use of them and drive them hard, even knowing that many of them had been compromised by their brush with Chaos. We know that the original plan for the Primarchs included a retirement villa for all of them on Terra so there was clearly a time when he expected them to be able to take it easy after conquering the galaxy. In this context, the idea of a planned rebellion makes some kind of sense. It was not the original plan, it was a contingency to cope with the fact gthat many of the Primarchs had been seriously compromised and would be unlikely to be able to transition to the peace-time roles he had envisaged for them. Angron was obviously broken beyond repair and he probably had serious doubts about Curze from an early stage.

[Karhedron]

The nature of the deal the Emperor made at Molech has always been unclear. In at least one version, it was that he would be able to create the Primarchs in return for spreading knowledge of "the primordial truth" (i.e. the existence and nature of the warp). Instead the Emperor tried to cut off humanity from the Warp.

 

Of course we have never heard the Emperor's side of the story. I think we have only had Chaos's side of the Molech bargain and they are not exactly known for their honesty. Also the Chaos Gods regard the souls of mortals and their food/possessions. Anything that cuts down on their food supply might be regarded by them as a betrayal, regardless of what they agreed with the Emperor.

 

What does seem clear is that the Primarchs are more than just flesh and blood. Warp sorcery went into their creation, not just genecrafting. Roboute acknowledges as much in Dark Imperium and Corax confirms it in Shadow of the Past.

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

The vibe I get from the Black Books and the Horus Heresy novels is that the Emperor saw rebellion as a possibility amongst a sea of possibilities using his precognition but couldn't exactly predict who or what would instigate it. Being that he was pressed for time he worked as fast as he could making many mistakes along the way to try and avoid unfavorable outcomes. Chaos was just too unpredictable an enemy to fight. The Emperor, like Guilliman in 40k as Lord Commander of the Imperium, had an impossible task and chose to pursue it anyway in order to save humanity from Xenos and Chaos alike.

[bluntblade]

The short story "Wolf of Ash and Fire" confirms that the Emperor knew Horus would turn on him but went ahead anyway.There is a short story where Malcador talks to a dying friend near the end of the Heresy and explains that the Heresy was engineered. The Emp knew the Primarchs had been compromised. With the Great Crusade nearing its conclusion and the Webway project proceeding, he needed a way to weed out those most likely to cause trouble if the Legions were downsized. Horus was given the authority, tools and information to turn traitor. He would take whichever of his brothers were most troublesome with him. The Emperor would then be able to use Imperial Webway to outmaneuver the traitors and eliminate them when they showed their true colours.The trouble is that it was supposed to be a strictly secular rebellion. The Emperor didn't forsee Chaos getting involved or quite so many Legions turning. Fulgrim had no reason to turn and was seduced by the daemon sword. Alpharius knew about Chaos and should have known better than to start playing both sides. Magnus was going to be brought to Terra, not killed. But then Chaos tricked Magnus into sabotaging the Webway, the influence of Chaos allowed Horus to turn more Primarchs than the Emperor anticipated, the Istvaan massacre devastated 3 Legions the Emperor had been counting on the Ruinstorm cut off the Ultras, Blood Angels and Dark Angels in Ultramar.Malcador reassured his friend that whilst things had gone a bit off-kilter, it was still within the parameters of the plan and the situation could be salvaged. After the friend died though, Malcador wished he had not had to lie so we don't really know for sure how much of what he said was true.

Where in The Wolf of Ash and Fire is any such thing confirmed? That story is there entirely to sell us on Horus' old loyalty to his father.

[Karhedron]

 

The short story "Wolf of Ash and Fire" confirms that the Emperor knew Horus would turn on him but went ahead anyway.

Where in The Wolf of Ash and Fire is any such thing confirmed? That story is there entirely to sell us on Horus' old loyalty to his father.

 

The opening paragraph has the following sentence:

 

It had been a singular moment, the Emperor and Horus shoulder to shoulder in the fiery, ash-choked depths of the scrapworld. Blood-lit in the broil of combat for almost the last time, though only one of them knew that.

Horus had not even begun to fall at this point and was completely loyal to the Emperor. The Emperor on the other hand had precognition and this shows he had some awareness of what was coming.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Ya that reads that it was right before the emperor retired from the crusade. Which it was.

 

The emperor planned to have horus mop up the almost won crusade while he finished the webway project. That was the whole point of the warmaster thing.

 

@torvald ya...he wasn't. Like usual you kind of ignore the greater plot threads to force your point.

Edited December 13, 2020 by SkimaskMohawk