The Emperor knew of the Horus Heresy?

[bluntblade]

Skimask is right. Also, look at everything in the story. It's meant to sell us on the bond that everyone believed unbreakable. It ends with the Emperor entrusting His favoured son to undertake what will be the greatest campaign of the whole Crusade.

[Medjugorje]

The main problem in this discussion could be that GW changed their view. The Horus Heresy never used to be a worked out story. 

 

Then the Horus Heresy game everything changed. Even the current status of 40k would have never been going into this direction. The focus into the Legions and the primarchs in the game for example. As it started many ideas from earlier sources were taken as fact. Now they create it all new and so much books with lore make it difficult to stay uniformly while giving every character more depth

 

To say what correct and what is not is to watch which informations were written at last.

Edited December 14, 2020 by Medjugorje

[Marshal Rohr]

The Black Library series began a decade before the game came out.

[Bung]

The Black Library series began a decade before the game came out.

But the problem is, it wasnt really planned to the end.

In Germany there is a Long running sci fi series called Perry Rhoden which started in 1961 and rund till today with a weekly short novel (around 60-70 pages).

They had an author planning the Story for years in advance which worked even after He dies for the overall story.

 

And thats lacking with the Heresy novels from GW. They should have planned an exact number of novels with an plan whats happening when and then maybe bring additional stuff like the primarch series.

But for me some novels Look like WE need to get stuff out to make money.

Same with the black books.

[Scribe]

So the argument is that the pivotal characters and plot points have been made up on the fly?

 

I think as poorly of GW/BL as the next guy, but that's a stretch even for me.

[MegaVolt87]

So the argument is that the pivotal characters and plot points have been made up on the fly?

I think as poorly of GW/BL as the next guy, but that's a stretch even for me.

Only the 8 book seige arc seems to be planned out. The rest feels very off the cuff. Buried Dagger is a poor capstone to the overal arc. It's one book that should be three- knights.errant, Morties primarch book and a DG legion one.

[Jareddm]

I believe Bung is right to an extent.  From my understanding, management essentially gave up on the Horus Heresy in 2013-2014, after their plan to flood the community with limited edition novellas and micro-shorts was met with negativity and poorer sales.  The short period in which BL and the Studio were merged also meant that priority was shifted away from Horus Heresy series development and on to codex tie-ins.  It was only after BL was separated  from the studio again that the Horus Heresy was pulled back on track.

[Bung]

So the argument is that the pivotal characters and plot points have been made up on the fly?

 

I think as poorly of GW/BL as the next guy, but that's a stretch even for me.

My argument is that the overall plot is badly planned and more than a few novels read like fillers just to sell novels.

Combined with some authors questionable quality in writting you end up with inconsistencys and other stuff that makes the series lacking.

Edited December 15, 2020 by Bung

[Scribe]

 

So the argument is that the pivotal characters and plot points have been made up on the fly?

 

I think as poorly of GW/BL as the next guy, but that's a stretch even for me.

My argument is that the overall plot is badly planned and more than a few novels read like fillers just to sell novels.

Combined with some authors questionable quality in writting you end up with inconsistencys and other stuff that makes the series lacking.

 

 

All of that is extremely fair. I just would find it difficult to believe they had no plan for the major arc of the story, and the plan of the Emperor. I mean it had to have come up at some point.

 

Again, I agree the series (if you want to call it that) is terrible. I've said as much many times, you could slash 60-75, hell 80% of it maybe and lose NOTHING of central value to the story of the primary 'meta' plot line.

 

I just have to believe that they at LEAST had the Emperor's part in all this figured out...I hope. 

[Bung]

The story as an overall arc was there for years with stuff like Phall etc. partially fleshed out but i doubt they had much planed out for their caracters and their stories or the authors had to much of freedom or you wouldnt have something like Sons of the Selenar wrapping up that arc.

[Karhedron]

The HH series was not planned out clearly at the beginning. After the initial trilogy proved a hit, it grew in a very haphazard way. Initially there was an attempt to do a book focusing on each Legion and its Primarch. You can see this in early entries such as Fulgrim, Legion, A Thousand Sons etc but there were also efforts to bring in other factions such as the Mechanicum. However this mono-faction approach made it harder to tell big picture stories so things started to get a bit hazy. Certain books were written to tie in with particular releases such as Nemesis and Vengeful Spirit.

 

Authors were given a very broad license to tell their stories. I remember one or two authors commenting that they were surprised when controversial story elements they proposed were accepted with very little push-back. While this sort of creativity is a great thing, it also explains some of the inconsistencies contradictions that would eventually lead to threads like this. The Horus Heresy series was not planned out very well at the start. I believe they had a notion of 10-12 books when they released the original trilogy. Once they realised they had a hit series on their hands, they started churning them out and it grew organically without a clear master plan.

[MarineRaider]

I've read every HH book, short story and novella. Probably forgot much of it but the idea that E knew or planned that 1/2 of his Primarchs would betray him would make him even more incompetent than he appeared at the end of MoM.

 

He engineered them down to the last cell, if he knew this could happen or planned after his power-up by Chaos ( which is glossed over in the book or how he doesn't need a ship anymore so there is a gate obviously there to Terra) then why didn't he have a kill-switch engineered into them where he just sends out a word and they are dead? I mean that's what I would do if I were him and I knew 1/2 would betray him but not knowing which half...He obviously didn't know Magnus would as he tried to warn him. Then there is that pesky two lost legions arc, what happened there? if two Primarchs had to be killed for going against the wishes of the E you would think he would be even more wary of his " sons"

 

It has been stated and I totally agree, BL had a no plan but a hit and they just made it up as they went along. They added some editors that had their own take of the setting and turned E even more down a path that took away some of the mystery but added what looks like human hubris and ineptness combined.

 

If the E knew this could all go down then I doubt he would be seated on a time bomb with one of his sons with the kill switch to end it all. Of course...the two of them should be reincarnated somewhere else in the galaxy and he can start all over again.

[MegaVolt87]

 

If the E knew this could all go down then I doubt he would be seated on a time bomb with one of his sons with the kill switch to end it all. Of course...the two of them should be reincarnated somewhere else in the galaxy and he can start all over again.

 

I hope not. The charm of the setting is the fact mankind blew their shot at supremacy and safety of humanity, even with the greatest leader, plan + military at the time and had been limping along ever since then, just surviving day to day. 

[Bung]

The HH series was not planned out clearly at the beginning. After the initial trilogy proved a hit, it grew in a very haphazard way. Initially there was an attempt to do a book focusing on each Legion and its Primarch. You can see this in early entries such as Fulgrim, Legion, A Thousand Sons etc but there were also efforts to bring in other factions such as the Mechanicum. However this mono-faction approach made it harder to tell big picture stories so things started to get a bit hazy. Certain books were written to tie in with particular releases such as Nemesis and Vengeful Spirit.

 

Authors were given a very broad license to tell their stories. I remember one or two authors commenting that they were surprised when controversial story elements they proposed were accepted with very little push-back. While this sort of creativity is a great thing, it also explains some of the inconsistencies contradictions that would eventually lead to threads like this. The Horus Heresy series was not planned out very well at the start. I believe they had a notion of 10-12 books when they released the original trilogy. Once they realised they had a hit series on their hands, they started churning them out and it grew organically without a clear master plan.

I rather thought it was like the old pre-Disney Star Wars stuff when anyone could write anything as Georg Lucas got his share.

[Arendious]

Well, not *anything*.

 

Or we would have learned what the Squat Homeworlds were doing while the Imperium imploded...

[Pacific81]

I've read every HH book, short story and novella. Probably forgot much of it but the idea that E knew or planned that 1/2 of his Primarchs would betray him would make him even more incompetent than he appeared at the end of MoM.

 

He engineered them down to the last cell, if he knew this could happen or planned after his power-up by Chaos ( which is glossed over in the book or how he doesn't need a ship anymore so there is a gate obviously there to Terra) then why didn't he have a kill-switch engineered into them where he just sends out a word and they are dead? I mean that's what I would do if I were him and I knew 1/2 would betray him but not knowing which half...He obviously didn't know Magnus would as he tried to warn him. Then there is that pesky two lost legions arc, what happened there? if two Primarchs had to be killed for going against the wishes of the E you would think he would be even more wary of his " sons"

 

 

The not having a kill-switch is kind of understandable. There is a really terrifying 'true life' parallel example here; those ICBM missiles that are ready to launch and would effectively end civilisation? No kill-switch on those either apparently. Once they are up they are up, and that's that. The reason being apparently that you couldn't engineer a 'kill switch' into them and risk the enemy getting their hands on them, effectively neutering your weapon. 

 

So you could understand the Emperor not wanting to do the same with his most powerful weapons. 

 

Knowing that they would turn and start a civil war is a bit of a stretch however.. I imagined that, had the galaxy ever been completely conquered the Imperium would have done what the Romans did with their retired soldiery; they became governors, farmers, workers etc. You would have needed some to reign some of them in that had gone too far (the Night Lords, World Eaters etc.) and that's when the Space Wolves came in. Saying that, it's a shame that they didn't ever make more of the planned 'retirement' of the marines being one of the reasons Horus started the Heresy, as it would have been a good emotional hook. 

[MegaVolt87]

Nah, NL, WE, DA, WS etc could have just kept operations up outside Imperial space, no need for such legions to be delt with or "settle" within the Imperium. They would be perfect for dealing with external thteats, any new expansion. A stagnant empire is a declining empire.

[Moonreaper666]

Wasn't it stated in the Board is Set that the Heresy is 100% inevitable because Chaos would be involved somehow and that the roles of Lorgar and Horus were interchangeable with other Primarchs?

 

Wasn't sure if Malcador and the Emperor knew that at least half of the Primarchs would turn traitor

 

One thing is for sure the Emperor didn't know how the Heresy would pan out and what would the final outcome be:

 

-Didn't know that Magnus would ironically save the Imperium more than once (Telling Artellus Numelon to trade his life to bring back Vulkan, heping Shattered Legions steal the Primaris formula from Traitor-held Luna and one other thing that is in the SPOILER)

 

-Did not know about the Tyranids and the fact that the Heresy is the sole reason they invaded in the first place

 

-Did not know about Eldrad's involvement (which is actually good since he is one of the main reasons why Horus lost the Heresy)

 

-Did not know that Sanginius almost fell to the temptations of Chaos at Signus Prime (join Chaos in return for the cure of the Red Thrist/Black Rage)

 

Does the Emperor know the full details about the Unforgiven-Paradox/Time-Loop?

 

He did not know about the Silent King or his interactions with Sanginius during the Great Crusade

 

He did not knew Magnus' secret goal would derail the Traitors during the Siege of Terra

 

While he defeated the Void Dragon I doubt he would beat the Deceiver at full power or even the Nightbringer. It's clear that the Deceiver is much smarter and has more precognition than the Emperor

[Uberlord Gendo]

I really think 40k plays by Dune rules here, which are sort of like quantum rules.

In Dune, prescient agents can't directly observe each other in futures. The quantum bit is that observation is itself an act that impacts timelines. Because information is the key factor here, events can end up retrocausal, like how the thing that caused Cruze's death was his clear knowledge of his death. If you will, once Cruze fixated on this end, things began to match from both sides, the state collapsed. With other kinds of observation, the possibilities remain open, think of counterfactual measurement, which doesn't cause state collapse.

Now, if looking certain ways has an impact and you can't clearly see other prescient agents, there's a lot of scope for uncertainty and possibility.

[tikhunt]

I really think 40k plays by Dune rules here, which are sort of like quantum rules.

In Dune, prescient agents can't directly observe each other in futures. The quantum bit is that observation is itself an act that impacts timelines. Because information is the key factor here, events can end up retrocausal, like how the thing that caused Cruze's death was his clear knowledge of his death. If you will, once Cruze fixated on this end, things began to match from both sides, the state collapsed. With other kinds of observation, the possibilities remain open, think of counterfactual measurement, which doesn't cause state collapse.

Now, if looking certain ways has an impact and you can't clearly see other prescient agents, there's a lot of scope for uncertainty and possibility.

I like this, it might be the best way to handle prescience in fiction

[Indefragable]

Personally I find “the Emperor knew about it or planned it all along” lazy writing.

 

It feels like a manufactured “gotcha!” move meant to be surprising and edgy just for the sake of being surprising and edgy. It doesn’t add anything to the setting or story.

 

And as @MarineRaider points out, the Emperor is even more of a blatant* idiot if he did plan it all along and it turns out this way. There’s a difference between burning down your own house for the insurance money and burning down your house while your locked inside and asleep and you nailed your door shut and deactivated the smoke detectors and threw out all your fire extinguishers.

 

I can buy into the idea that Big E guessed that it could happen...the very concept of 20 Primarchs that compete with each other is as much protection against rebellion as it is an enabler. And it’s fun to speculate that the disappearance of one or both of the missing Primarchs somehow ties into that. But the Horus Heresy is precisely what he wanted to happen? Yea, that weakens things greatly on so many levels

 

*part of the gratification of the story is that no matter how powerful you are, you can still pull off some spectacularly boneheaded moves. Like @MegaVolt87 said the catharsis of sorts is that the best laid plans of mice men off go awry, no matter what the scale. That feeling is created by having a brilliant leader still fail, while having an idiot fail doesn’t have the same effect, outside of slapstick

Edited December 24, 2020 by Indefragable

[Scribe]

*part of the gratification of the story is that no matter how powerful you are, you can still pull off some spectacularly boneheaded moves. Like @MegaVolt87 said the catharsis of sorts is that the best laid plans of mice men off go awry, no matter what the scale. That feeling is created by having a brilliant leader still fail, while having an idiot fail doesn’t have the same effect, outside of slapstick

 

Thats why my personal theory is that even if it was intended, or understood to be a potential result of it all, he pushed through with it anyways not because it was the only option, but because of his fundamental flaw, being his towering arrogance.

 

It reflects on the Tragedy of the setting/series not being the fall of the Imperium, not the loss of the dream that was the Crusade. The Tragedy is in the classical sense. The failure of the Emperor to ever learn, ever grow beyond his own cosmic level conceit and self belief, despite error, and consequence, over and over and over.

 

The result, is the reward for all his failures. His dream cast down, His realm shattered, His body ruined, imprisoned on the Throne for eternity, while everything he fought against, comes to pass.

 

Chaos won, He lost.

 

The whole point of it being staggering levels of arrogance, and will, cannot undo human nature.

[Arkangilos]

The reasons for why he treated Angron the way he did are implied in various stories, including Ghosts of Nuceria by Ian St. Martin.

 

It's a combination of needing to be expedient about the Crusade, political problems with Compliance, disgust at how broken Angron became - and how his gifts were taken; Angron used to be highly empathic and able to soothe his companions psychically, which was utterly destroyed by the Nails, and replaced with sheer agony when psychically interacted with, resulting in Angron suffering when even just being in the Emperor's presence.

 

The Emperor couldn't fix him, Angron was broken and his original purpose probably lost. Whether that's all there is to it is highly debatable, but it seems likely that the Emperor just gave up actively engaging with him after trying to find ways to remove the Nails and restore him - and failing - and seeing how Angron turned his Legion into suicidal butchers, before forcing the Nails on them, too.

 

Either way, there was no "whimsy" about him not saving Angron's companions. By the time Angron was teleported out, he was literally about to be obliterated, and most of his brothers and sisters were already dead. He was almost alone on the field, and his retrieval was a clutch measure when he refused to listen.

The difference between his case and Russ's is that the Emperor was at liberty to visit Russ in person, like he did with many others, and Russ welcomed him into his hall. They had a brawl about joining up, but there was no malice involved, no war going on, no danger to Russ or the Emperor. Besides, Russ was the second to be found, and the Emperor was really excited about finally finding him - even as Horus wasn't thrilled.

 

Mortarion was given honors at multiple occasions, including right at the start when he was granted free pickings from the Emperor's archaeotech. He also spent significant time at Terra, and was introduced to the Webway Project, likely as the only one among his brothers. The worst the Emperor did to him would be letting him run at the Overlord by himself / challenging him to it, as a means to teach Mortarion his own limits and blunt his arrogance.

 

Curze wasn't left to rot either. He just continued breaking and going down a path that wasn't palatable. It wasn't even the Emperor who ultimately tried reining him in, but Horus. Curze was attached to the Salamanders and White Scars, as well as the Sons of Horus, after they apprehended him in the wake of Nostramo getting blown up. This was after Curze had a fit / vision of the Heresy and nearly killed Dorn. Horus simply decided, after Davin, when his turn came (after the Scars and Sallies had Curze under their wings) that he prefered the Night Haunter, and accelerated his fall.

 

Perturabo, for completion's sake, had a massive martyr complex combined with a superiority complex. He wasn't necessarily assigned the hard, meatgrinder tasks - he basically forced himself upon them in an attempt to prove something to himself and the others. He was upset, too, that his skills for warfare were more relevant to the galactic crusade than his skills as a builder of art.

 

Lorgar, meanwhile, was being allowed to do his thing for decades before the Emperor called it enough and Monarchia happened - fun fact, Guilliman wasn't happy about his involvement there, either. He had been warned about his faith nonsense countless times but thought he knew better, that the Emperor was a God anyway, and he had to enlighten the galaxy. Was Monarchia harsh? Yes. But Lorgar had it coming in some capacity, due to his own choices.

 

Magnus was one of the Emperor's favorites and closest sons. He had many special privileges, including years of psychic communion before being found. The Emperor probably taught him the most of all his sons. It was, again, Magnus' own choices and arrogance that led him down his path - and even by the end, during the Siege, he was offered forgiveness and a return to the fold, if only he was willing to let go of his sins.

 

 

There are plenty of angles you could look at regarding the Heresy being predicted, foreseen, planned, but frankly, no, the Emperor might have planned for obsolescence at some point, but it certainly wasn't supposed to give Chaos a complete stranglehold on the galaxy after taking it back only halfway.

What a beautiful post :’)

 

—

 

On a side note, the only “he planned for this” theme that I’ve been down was early in the series (when there were only two books), and I saw it more as the Golden Path. I figured he planned for “losing” because he would have seen the outcomes and for whatever reason the 40K universe would have had the best possible outcome when it was done.

 

In that light the inquisitor faction that wants him to die and be reborn are the right faction. XD

[Karhedron]

In that light the inquisitor faction that wants him to die and be reborn are the right faction. XD

This is an interesting one. Does even the Emperor know what would happen if he died? He actually spoke to Roboute before the start of the Indomitus Crusade and he definitely did not ask him to pull the plug. This suggests that either the Emperor does not know what would happen if he dies or he does know and knows that it will be worse than the status quo.

[Astartes Consul]

Master of Mankind provides the best explanation I think which was the Emperor was massively pressed for time. The Fall of the Eldar created a power vacuum at the top of the galactic hierarchy but there was only a narrow window of time for humanity to exploit the opportunity. If humanity was too slow off the mark some other species would have taken over the top-spot (quite possibly Orks) and humanity would be doomed to slow strangulation.

 

The Emperor had no choice. He had to launch the GC when he did and he had to use the Primarchs as they were the only leaders who could conquer the galaxy in the timeframe required. The abduction of the Primarchs put him in a no-win situation. He had to make use of them and drive them hard, even knowing that many of them had been compromised by their brush with Chaos. We know that the original plan for the Primarchs included a retirement villa for all of them on Terra so there was clearly a time when he expected them to be able to take it easy after conquering the galaxy. In this context, the idea of a planned rebellion makes some kind of sense. It was not the original plan, it was a contingency to cope with the fact gthat many of the Primarchs had been seriously compromised and would be unlikely to be able to transition to the peace-time roles he had envisaged for them. Angron was obviously broken beyond repair and he probably had serious doubts about Curze from an early stage.

 

Valdor: Birth of the Imperium also touches a bit on this - talking about the scattering of the Primarchs and the disaster that it was for the Emperor's plans. It goes on to show that, despite knowing the nature of the powers that scattered the Primarchs, the Emperor is not willing to abandon the Primarchs once he thinks that some of them are still out there.