Tyberos the Red Wake as a BA Successor....

[L30n1d4s]

Per the new FW books, the Carcharodons are an unknown founding Chapter (most of the other fluff on them supports this as well), but in the book GW RECOMMENDS (this is key, as they do not require you to do this) that players make them a Raven Guard successor and use the "Stealthy" and "Whirlwind of Rage" traits to represent them.

 

I have been thinking, though, what about using Carcharodons as a Blood Angels Successor instead (remember, Chapter Tactics are recommended, not required)? If you give them Inheritors of the Primarch, then they get +1" to advance and charges, and also +1 to Wound on charge/being charged/Heroic Interventions, which pretty accurately captures the Charcharodon way of war, as a Crusading, fleet-based chapter that roams the outer void like deadly sharks and shows up, brutally devastates its target, and then leaves.

 

Even more significantly, Tyberos the Red Wake (their Chapter Master, and the only unique unit for them) gives all Core and Character Carcharodon units around him +1 strength. Combined with all the other Blood Angel combat buffs (i.e. +1A in super doctrine, +1 to Hit from Quake Bolts, exploding 6s to Hit from Psychic Power, BA Chapter Tactics, etc.), you can turn a unit of even basic Assault Intercessors into absolute monsters.

 

For example:

 

-On the charge, with Assault Doctrine active and Tyberos within 6", a 10 man Assault Intercessor squad gets 50 x S5 AP-2 Dmg1 attacks.... use Tyberos' Chapter Master re-rolls on them and "Honor the Chapter" to fight twice and that single squad can put out 100 attacks, about 88 hits, about 44 wounds against T6-T8, 59 wounds against T5, and 73 wounds against T3-T4 units.

 

With AP-2 from their chainswords in Assault Doctrine, this single Assault Intercessor squad (which is an Obsec Troop choice, remember) could kill a full 6 man Thunderwolf Calvary (TH/SS load out) squad or Mortarion or an Imperial Knight or a phalanx of 20 Necron Warriors or 30 Ork Boyz or even a 5 man unit of T6 4W Custodes Bikers in a single round of combat with average rolls (and that's not counting what Tyberos himself can do, with his 7 x S7 AP-4 Dmg2, re-roll to Wound attacks).

 

 

Another classic Carcharodon unit is Assault Terminators with dual Lightning Claws... 5 of these with Tyberos nearby put out 31 x S5 AP-3 Dmg1 attacks in Assault Doctrine, with +1 to wound and full re-rolls to wound... throw in the "Fury of the First" Strat to make them hit at WS2+ and Tyberos' Rites of Battle aura to re-roll 1s to Hit and they are basically hitting with all their attacks, wounding with a very large number of those, and bringing down their enemies with the sheer number of AP-3 wounds that they can generate.

 

 

I guess the point here is that Tyberos and his +1S aura is quite potent in an assault-based army like BA successors, especially when bumping up baseline attacks from S4 to S5, which is one of the key "breaking points" in the game.

Edited December 11, 2020 by L30n1d4s

[Gederas]

They recommend them being Raven Guard because they are a Raven Guard successor.

 

Or at least MOSTLY a Raven Guard successor. Read Red Tithe and Outer Dark, those go into detail.

[L30n1d4s]

Well, perhaps, but according to both the fluff in the new FW book AND the descriptor of the Carcharodons in the actual Space Marine Codex (see pages 72-73, where they are listed in the "Unknown Founding" section, not the Raven Guard successor section on page 69), we don't actually know for sure where they come from.

 

Add into this the explicit part of GW saying that they "Recommend" using RG rules, not require that you use them (which they would do if they were confirmed as one, like they do with Raptors, Revilers, Knights of the Raven etc.), I think there is enough legitimate ambiguity to use them as successors of another chapter (and, by the way, the ferocity with which they fight in the fluff could easily be explained by the Red Thirst or even th Black Rage, so that makes sense as well).

Edited December 11, 2020 by L30n1d4s

[Hintzy]

Found a fellow AoWDU listener

[Arkangilos]

Well, perhaps, but according to both the fluff in the new FW book AND the descriptor of the Carcharodons in the actual Space Marine Codex (see pages 72-73, where they are listed in the "Unknown Founding" section, not the Raven Guard successor section on page 69), we don't actually know for sure where they come from.

 

Add into this the explicit part of GW saying that they "Recommend" using RG rules, not require that you use them (which they would do if they were confirmed as one, like they do with Raptors, Revilers, Knights of the Raven etc.), I think there is enough legitimate ambiguity to use them as successors of another chapter (and, by the way, the ferocity with which they fight in the fluff could easily be explained by the Red Thirst or even th Black Rage, so that makes sense as well).

I don’t think there is, as ferocity is not the same as either of those. The red thirst is literally a blood thirst, and the black rage is a psychic induced trip. None of which they have.

[Iron Lord]

Found a fellow AoWDU listener I'm not well acquainted with the rules for successor chapters, especially named ones. If one were to run Carcharodons as a Blood Angels successor would they be able to field SangGuard and DC?

Yes, if you declared them a Blood Angel Successor, you would gain access to those. Even without Inheritors of the Primarch.

[Gederas]

Well, perhaps, but according to both the fluff in the new FW book AND the descriptor of the Carcharodons in the actual Space Marine Codex (see pages 72-73, where they are listed in the "Unknown Founding" section, not the Raven Guard successor section on page 69), we don't actually know for sure where they come from.

 

Add into this the explicit part of GW saying that they "Recommend" using RG rules, not require that you use them (which they would do if they were confirmed as one, like they do with Raptors, Revilers, Knights of the Raven etc.), I think there is enough legitimate ambiguity to use them as successors of another chapter (and, by the way, the ferocity with which they fight in the fluff could easily be explained by the Red Thirst or even th Black Rage, so that makes sense as well).

I don’t think there is, as ferocity is not the same as either of those. The red thirst is literally a blood thirst, and the black rage is a psychic induced trip. None of which they have.

Yeah this. The Carcharodons are described as having violent ferocity. In the novels and fluff about them, observers liken it to explosive butchery like the Night Lords or World Eaters (the other two Legions that their geneseed is thought to come from), counterbalanced by their extreme discipline.

[Iron Lord]

It's worth remembering that back when the Badab War rules first came out, their Chapter Tactics gave them the Rage universal special rule. The Death Company also got that.

 

Khorne Berserkers didn't get that.

 

So "more violent than Berserkers" and "as violent as Death Company" were true. At least, mechanically speaking.

 

Since then, they have been toned down. But a case could be made that ruleswise, the Blood Angels rules may fit to a degree, even if fluffwise they don't.

[Spinsanity]

Didn’t someone around here recently come up with the theory that the Black Rage was caused by the blood of Sanguinus that the Angels all consume, eventually overloading their Omophagea because of the overpowering smpsychic strength of the Primarch’s blood? One could argue the reason the Carcharodon don’t suffer from the flaw could be because they never shared the ritual...

 

But fluff aside, rules-wise I do think it could fit

[Iron Lord]

According to the new codex, the Flesh Tearers has not used the Exsanguination process when making marines, for centuries. It's left unclear whether this has made their version of the Flaw worse, or prevented it from getting any worse than it already is.

 

So "not using Sanguinius's blood" might not actually help.

[Gederas]

Didn’t someone around here recently come up with the theory that the Black Rage was caused by the blood of Sanguinus that the Angels all consume, eventually overloading their Omophagea because of the overpowering smpsychic strength of the Primarch’s blood? One could argue the reason the Carcharodon don’t suffer from the flaw could be because they never shared the ritual...

 

But fluff aside, rules-wise I do think it could fit

That was me, yes :lol:

[Arkangilos]

Didn’t someone around here recently come up with the theory that the Black Rage was caused by the blood of Sanguinus that the Angels all consume, eventually overloading their Omophagea because of the overpowering smpsychic strength of the Primarch’s blood? One could argue the reason the Carcharodon don’t suffer from the flaw could be because they never shared the ritual...

 

But fluff aside, rules-wise I do think it could fit

The problem is that there are chapters that don’t do that that didn’t even know they were BA successors that fell to the flaw, despite not having the same rituals. They only found out they were BA successors when Astorath showed up.

[smileyjim]

That idea for the shark heads is awesome, you can make a case for it lore wise, and rukes wise you can totally do it plus those rules fit the fluff nicely.

 

Post pictures when you do it!

[Charlo]

The reccomended CT thing really irks me, as it opens up some real windows of abuse - this being one of them 

 

It sounds like a damn nasty army though and certainly would represent the savage butchery of the Charcaradons. 

 

It's certainly one of those things that will probably be rules one way or the other at tournmanets. When GW official tourneys come back I'd be interested to see their rulings.

 

OR I expect it to be clarified in an FAQ when the book gets one.

Edited December 15, 2020 by Charlo

[Arkangilos]

That idea for the shark heads is awesome, you can make a case for it lore wise, and rukes wise you can totally do it plus those rules fit the fluff nicely.

 

Post pictures when you do it!

You cannot make a case for it lore wise.

 

Maybe rules wise, but even then there are others rules that would fit better.

[Closet Skeleton]

Didn’t someone around here recently come up with the theory that the Black Rage was caused by the blood of Sanguinus that the Angels all consume, eventually overloading their Omophagea because of the overpowering smpsychic strength of the Primarch’s blood?

 

That's the original main theory stated in the 2nd edition codex, so there has to be something more to it than that.

[smileyjim]

 

That idea for the shark heads is awesome, you can make a case for it lore wise, and rukes wise you can totally do it plus those rules fit the fluff nicely.

 

Post pictures when you do it!

You cannot make a case for it lore wise.

 

Maybe rules wise, but even then there are others rules that would fit better.

Sure you can, just depends how much you want to argue with someone over a chapter with an ambiguous history in the law.

I can justify an alpha legion army maskerading as the ultramarines chapter in some far corner of their bit of space. 40k is a sandbox, don't let grumpy kids kick over your sandcastles.

[Arkangilos]

 

 

That idea for the shark heads is awesome, you can make a case for it lore wise, and rukes wise you can totally do it plus those rules fit the fluff nicely.

 

Post pictures when you do it!

You cannot make a case for it lore wise.

 

Maybe rules wise, but even then there are others rules that would fit better.

Sure you can, just depends how much you want to argue with someone over a chapter with an ambiguous history in the law.

I can justify an alpha legion army maskerading as the ultramarines chapter in some far corner of their bit of space. 40k is a sandbox, don't let grumpy kids kick over your sandcastles.

It’s the difference between objective truth and subjective preferences.

 

You objectively cannot make good lore to say they are a BA successor for two reasons:

There is enough real lore to know they don’t suffer from the flaw.

Reason would say that because they do not have a real desire to drink blood, or psychic backlashes where they are screaming to Horus, and other BA lore things like Astorath, they cannot be blood angel successors.

 

Now if you want to ignore objective truth that is on you, they are your toys, but there is a difference.

Edited December 16, 2020 by Arkangilos

[Charlo]

 

 

 

That idea for the shark heads is awesome, you can make a case for it lore wise, and rukes wise you can totally do it plus those rules fit the fluff nicely.

 

Post pictures when you do it!

You cannot make a case for it lore wise.

 

Maybe rules wise, but even then there are others rules that would fit better.

Sure you can, just depends how much you want to argue with someone over a chapter with an ambiguous history in the law.

I can justify an alpha legion army maskerading as the ultramarines chapter in some far corner of their bit of space. 40k is a sandbox, don't let grumpy kids kick over your sandcastles.

It’s the difference between objective truth and subjective preferences.

 

You objectively cannot make good lore to say they are a BA successor for two reasons:

There is enough real lore to know they don’t suffer from the flaw.

Reason would say that because they do not have a real desire to drink blood, or psychic backlashes where they are screaming to Horus, and other BA lore things like Astorath, they cannot be blood angel successors.

 

Now if you want to ignore objective truth that is on you, they are your toys, but there is a difference.

 

I don't know, I'd say that maybe some Charcharadons going into a bloodthirsty rage could well be a symptom of the thirst :) 

[Spinsanity]

There is enough real lore to know they don’t suffer from the flaw.

Reason would say that because they do not have a real desire to drink blood, or psychic backlashes where they are screaming to Horus, and other BA lore things like Astorath, they cannot be blood angel successors.

I wouldn’t consider Astorath to be a valid Lore reason to dismiss the lineage, it’s flimsy as hell considering we have a canon chapter which was afflicted by the Thirst and/or Rage “for a considerable amount of time” before Astorath ever showed up... Edited December 16, 2020 by Spinsanity

[Arkangilos]

 

There is enough real lore to know they don’t suffer from the flaw.

Reason would say that because they do not have a real desire to drink blood, or psychic backlashes where they are screaming to Horus, and other BA lore things like Astorath, they cannot be blood angel successors.

I wouldn’t consider Astorath to be a valid Lore reason to dismiss the lineage, it’s flimsy as hell considering we have a canon chapter which was afflicted by the Thirst and/or Rage “for a considerable amount of time” before Astorath ever showed up...

They were a relatively new chapter, the Charchs are second founding.

 

Also their geneseed mutations match the Raven Guard mutations. Their chapter master has a raven guard HH era title, and they don’t think they are Sanguinius when they get crazy.

Do you guys have one ounce of evidence beyond “they are brutal” which is common to a lot of chapters?

 

We already have at least two that they are Raven Guard.

 

Edit:

 

Three. Their founding was mysterious but as a result of an exile. The title Shadow Lord was held by an exiled Raven Guard. That’s the title held by their commander to this day.

 

Edit 2: their flagship was also a HH Raven Guard ship.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Arkangilos

[Arkangilos]

Also, again they are brutal but not blood thirsty, meaning they don’t have the red thirst, which makes them want to drink.

 

Plus, the Astorath thing isn’t presented alone. It’s one piece of evidence among many.

 

Sorry, final edit: they have a book series and as far as I can tell there is not a single hint that they have the Flaw.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Arkangilos

[Gederas]

Also, again they are brutal but not blood thirsty, meaning they don’t have the red thirst, which makes them want to drink.

 

Plus, the Astorath thing isn’t presented alone. It’s one piece of evidence among many.

 

Sorry, final edit: they have a book series and as far as I can tell there is not a single hint that they have the Flaw.

And said book series also basically flat-out says they're descended from the Terran XIX exiles.

 

Now, it also says that their gene-seed isn't "pure" Raven Guard, as the Ashen Claws (another XIX Legion exile/Blackshield faction) refers to their geneseed as 'impure' iirc. But that just lends into the theory their geneseed is a chimeric strain of Raven Guard and something else (World Eaters or Night Lords are the front-runners).

Edited December 17, 2020 by Gederas

[The Unseen]

Fluff-wise, no, the Sharks aren't BA descended. But that doesn't mean that the rules don't match their fluff, and that's been something people have been doing for ages. I remember back in the olden days of 5th where people were running their khornate marines using the space wolf book, because they did melee marines right, and having rules for juggernaut riding bezerkers was cool.

The ultimate and final answer is *Your Dudes*

if you want to represent the Sharks utter brutality with +1 to wound in combat and +1 to advance and charge, you're free to do so.

[Arkangilos]

Fluff-wise, no, the Sharks aren't BA descended. But that doesn't mean that the rules don't match their fluff, and that's been something people have been doing for ages. I remember back in the olden days of 5th where people were running their khornate marines using the space wolf book, because they did melee marines right, and having rules for juggernaut riding bezerkers was cool.

The ultimate and final answer is *Your Dudes*

if you want to represent the Sharks utter brutality with +1 to wound in combat and +1 to advance and charge, you're free to do so.

Just to be clear I support this.

 

My only argument was against the lore part. Specifically the idea that they could be successors of the BA.

 

I might have misunderstood what was meant, though.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Arkangilos