Did the Scorpius get the WHIRLWIND keyword back?

[The Unseen]

I don't have a copy of the FW compendium yet, and need to know if the Scorpius can use the Suppression Fire stratagem.

 

I know in a previous FaQ they removed the keyword because of the interaction with the shoot again strat, but that strat no longer exists, and it lost the native shoot twice rule as well, so I'm hoping they made it a WHIRLWIND again.

 

Otherwise it seems very sub-par, paying almost 50% more pts for a marginally improved gun and no rerolls, land speede4 buff, or strat support.

[Mandragola]

Nope. It has the keyword "Whirlwind Scorpius".

[CCE1981]

It has Whirlwind Scorpius as a keyword, but no Whirlwind keyword.

[Debauchery101]

Most space marine options in FW now are just not favorable. The FW chapter characters, Relic Contemptor(the cp cost does kinda suck) and the land speeder tempest are the best things

[highwind]

Well, RAW there is no rule interaction that requires "WHIRLWIND" (alone, between commas) when it already has "WHIRLWIND SCORPIUS"

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Is definitely not the same so that’s a no go .

[highwind]

I didnt say it is the same - I said there is not a single rule interaction where it would make a difference

 

 

Take Sgt Chronus for example:

 

His rule says he can command a vehicle "that has one of the following keywords"

• RHINO
• RAZORBACK
• PREDATOR
• VINDICATOR
• WHIRLWIND
• HUNTER
• STALKER
• LAND RAIDER

 

The Scorpius has one of those Keywords: "WHIRLWIND" - it is the fourth word in keywords-column of its datasheet

 

 

Blame GW for sloppy rules writing... just saying one "keyword" and not clearly defining what that is (as one can assume they actually mean "key-expression" instead of "keyword") leads to one keyword being one (key)word. "Whirlwind" is one (key)word - "Whirlwind Scorpius" is not one (key)word... it is two (key)words.

Edited December 18, 2020 by highwind

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There’s no comma .

[highwind]

Right - and Chronus rule doesnt ask for "WHIRLWIND," - it asks for "WHIRLWIND" (no comma)

Edited December 18, 2020 by highwind

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You should really post this in sub forum for discussing official rules .

[highwind]

Honestly, there isnt really anything to "discuss"...

 

If GW would like to have their keywords treated as "one / a single keyword is a term, that can potentially consist of more than one (physical) words. As long as two or more words in the keyword column are not seperated with a comma, they count as one keyword." then they should have written this as a rule in the keyword section of the rulebook - but they didnt (neither last edition nor this edition) so it is like it is: one keyword is one keyword

 

Funny thing is, they did it correct with the chapter keywords, as they basically define a chapter keyword as anything that is written between < >

They could have done this with normal keywords aswell: -WHIRLWIND- and -WHIRLWIND SCORPIUS- for example

 

But jeah... as long as this isnt changed/erratad Chronus is legal to drive a Whirlwind Scorpius or a Vindicator Laser Destroyer (because both have the required keyword listed in their datasheets) and a Whirlwind Scorpius is a legal target for the Suppression Fire stratagem (because it has the required keyword listed in its datasheet aswell)

Edited December 18, 2020 by highwind

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Say what you like you’re wrong. No one here agrees with you.

[Dracos]

Listed under the Redemptor Dreadnought

 

Keywords: . . . Dreadnought, Redemptor Dreadnought.

 

 

Don’t argue with people who only read the rules they want to see. Just saying.

Edited December 19, 2020 by Dracos

[highwind]

Say what you like you’re wrong. No one here agrees with you.

Well, it is acutally (just) YOU not agreeing with me - and thankfully rules are not about you (or anyone else) agreeing with me or saying I am wrong without having a logical argument, so feel free to keep "not agreeing with me" all day

 

 

Listed under the Redemptor Dreadnought

 

Keywords: . . . Dreadnought, Redemptor Dreadnought.

 

 

 

So? It has the (key)word "Dreadnought" listed twice in its keyword column - how does that change the Scorpius having the word "Whirlwind" written in its keyword column?

 

 

Don’t argue with people who only read the rules they want to see. Just saying.

Dont argue with people who make up interpretations and take those for rules - instead of the actual rules. Just saying.

 

 

As said:

Its not my fault that GW is unable to write their own rule(s) to act like what they intend.

Edited December 20, 2020 by highwind

[Dracos]

OMG 

 

You should really post this in sub forum for discussing official rules

 

Mods please make  ^THIS^  happen . . . before this turns into the kind of conversation no one who belongs on this site wants to have. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Agreed Dracos.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

=][= Thread moved to appropriate rules forum.  Please continue to play nice. =][=

 

 

Now, that being said, I have to agree with BBF and Dracos, highwind.  GW's keywords are not always single words.  ADEPTUS ASTARTES for example is one keyword, not two; if it were two, then you could technically play all kinds of trickery using ADEPTUS ASTARTES and ADEPTUS SORORITAS stratagems on units from entirely different armies (because, to follow from your argument, they both have the "ADEPTUS" keyword).

 

So no, the Scorpius does not have the WHIRLWIND keyword.  Sorry.

[Quixus]

Isn't is Adepta Sororitas? But yes you could do shenanigans with Adeptus Mechanicus and Adeptus Custodes.

While I agree it is RAI is that Keyowrds can contain multiple words and only if all words conform to the condition and no other words are next to the relevant word before a comma, a rule applies, unfortunately GW never specified how keywords are supposed to be used.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Sure they have.

[MegaVolt87]

 

Say what you like you’re wrong. No one here agrees with you.

Well, it is acutally (just) YOU not agreeing with me - and thankfully rules are not about you (or anyone else) agreeing with me or saying I am wrong without having a logical argument, so feel free to keep "not agreeing with me" all day

 

 

Listed under the Redemptor Dreadnought

 

Keywords: . . . Dreadnought, Redemptor Dreadnought.

 

 

 

So? It has the (key)word "Dreadnought" listed twice in its keyword column - how does that change the Scorpius having the word "Whirlwind" written in its keyword column?

 

 

Don’t argue with people who only read the rules they want to see. Just saying.

Dont argue with people who make up interpretations and take those for rules - instead of the actual rules. Just saying.

 

 

As said:

Its not my fault that GW is unable to write their own rule(s) to act like what they intend.

 

 

It has dreadnaught twice because the intent is for its interactions with what is in the codex based on the keywords. Lack of a keyword is done on purpose to lock out units of certain rules in 9th edition. In this case, by lacking the separate WHIRLWIND keyword, the designers do not wish for the scorpius to use the Suppressive fire stratagem. Since the whole point of the thread being that the Scorpius HAD the whirlwind keyword IS NO LONGER ON THE DATASHEET, why would the FAQ/rules team bother doing that at all if it could use rules/ stratagems regardless of keyword? If they wanted the scorpius to use the stratagem, the scorpius could have retained the whirlwind keyword OR the stratagem itself could have changed to say WHIRLWIND, WHIRLWIND SCORPIUS, while deleting the whirlwind keyword as it then becomes redundant. But the keyword was deleted and the stratagem unchanged to not allow it.

 

The 9th FW design/ rules is to lock off keywords to prevent interactions with the base faction codexes. I suggest you do some homework on 8th ed, case study- at release IH and FW dreadnaught interactions to understand why its being done this way in 9th ed. FW units really need their own powerful unique stratagems that are 2-3 CP each to use for each datasheet entry. eg- a scorpius only one that wont work on anything but itself. I don't get how people don't know how keywords work... 

Edited February 8, 2021 by MegaVolt87

[Tyriks]

Honestly, there isnt really anything to "discuss"...

 

If GW would like to have their keywords treated as "one / a single keyword is a term, that can potentially consist of more than one (physical) words. As long as two or more words in the keyword column are not seperated with a comma, they count as one keyword." then they should have written this as a rule in the keyword section of the rulebook - but they didnt (neither last edition nor this edition) so it is like it is: one keyword is one keyword

 

Funny thing is, they did it correct with the chapter keywords, as they basically define a chapter keyword as anything that is written between < >

They could have done this with normal keywords aswell: -WHIRLWIND- and -WHIRLWIND SCORPIUS- for example

 

But jeah... as long as this isnt changed/erratad Chronus is legal to drive a Whirlwind Scorpius or a Vindicator Laser Destroyer (because both have the required keyword listed in their datasheets) and a Whirlwind Scorpius is a legal target for the Suppression Fire stratagem (because it has the required keyword listed in its datasheet aswell)

A keyword in common English usage need not be one word; by definition it can be a concept or phrase (particularly in technical usage), so GW does not need to specify this in the rules.

[Morticon]

For further evidence via precedent:

 

The Ball Predator from the BA has "PREDATOR" and "BAAL PREDATOR" keywords. 

You're not correct on this, I'm afriad, Highwind.  

[Quixus]

AFAIK GW has not yet clarified that a single keyword can be a term consisting of multiple words (like BAAL PREDATOR), unlike they did with the differentiation between the Faction keyword DAEMON and the regular keyword DAEMON.

 

I am of the opinion that parsing WHIRLWIND SCORPIUS as two keywords is not RAI, and you should not use them as such, the rules are far from clear and GW needs to define what a keyword is.

[Oxydo]

To hopefully put in a pin in this. The Rapid Fire strat uses the following wording.
 

Use this Strategem at the end of your Shooting phase.
Select one INTERCESSOR SQUAD or VETERAN INTERCESSOR SQUAD unit from your army; that unit can shoot again.

This distinction wouldn't be needed if you could break out certain parts of a keyword.

 

There's even more support for this in the keyword section in the CRB (page 197) where the examples given are KEYWORD BOLD, and not soley KEYWORD in bold. Furthermore, in the breakout example they clearly define <CHAPTER> as a keyword, singular, despite that you could technically put an entire novel in there.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Further proof of this fallacy is the BladeGuard Ancient. When first released he had only the keyword 'Bladeguard Ancient', this meant he was locked out of upgrades which affected other Ancients, like the relic banners and Chapter Ancient upgrade. When the Codex was released they added the keyword 'Ancient' separately. Why would they need to do that if highwind was correct?

The answer is clear. The Scorpius does not have the 'Whirlwind' Keyword.

Edited February 16, 2021 by Brother Adelard