New Blightlord Terminators

[L30n1d4s]

There has been some intense debate on this board in the last 24 hours about the new version of Disgustingly Resilient, especially in terms of how it impacts Plague Marines, but I will try and side-step that a little here to talk about what I think is almost guaranteed to be one of the biggest winners in the new Codex: Blightlord Terminators.

 

 

Even though we still don't know a whole lot about the changes in the Death Guard book, including how they impact almost all the Strats, Relics, WL Traits, Psychic powers, unique units, etc., I think it is almost a lock that Blightlord Terminators are going to be EXTREMELY competitive.

 

I say this, even with the solid possibility that they have their Cataphractii 4++ brought down to a 5++ (just like the "Relic Terminators" in the Space Marine book). Why am I so hot on Blightlord Terminators? Well, just look at the things we DO know about them:

 

 

-Going up to 3 Wounds

-Still can Deep Strike

-Still have the same weapons options (so Combi-Weapons of all flavors, plus options of Bubonic Axe, Bale Sword, and for every 5 models, a Flail of Corruption and a DG Terminator Heavy Weapon option)

-Still Toughness 5

-Still at least 2+/5++ (maybe even get to keep the 4++, but I am not holding my breath)

-They get the new Contagions of Nurgle rule, along with lots of the DG army

-They can always Rapid Fire their Combi-Bolters at 24" (thanks to Malicious Volleys) and they can move/shoot their Reaper Autocannons at no penalty)

 

 

So, taken all together, what does this mean? Well, in terms of durability (which, of course, is the Death Guard's signature characteristic), it is going to be very difficult to kill Blightlord Terminators (again, this is not taking into account any durability buffs from Strats, Relics, WL Traits, Psychic Powers, or special rules from other DG units/characters).

 

 

For example, it takes an average of the following to kill a single Blightlord Terminator (assuming they have a 5++ here):

 

-108 x BS4+ Lasgun shots 

-81 x BS3+ Bolter shots (so, the equivalent of 4 full Tactical Squads rapid-firing all at the same target)

-10 x BS3+ Plasma Shots (overcharging doesn't matter, since Dmg 2 becomes Dmg 1 and S7 vs S8 is the same against T5)

-39 x WS3+ Chainsword attacks

-27 x WS3+ PF attacks

-18 x WS3+ TH attacks

 

 

With this kind of durability (which would be even better if they do retain their 4++ save), they will be extremely challenging to deal with, I think. Even more importantly, because of their potential damage output, they can't be simply ignored, especially now with the Contagions of Nurgle rule making them even more dangerous. 

 

For example, against Astra Militarum, all types of Eldar, Sisters, horde style Tyranids and Genestealer Cults, most Daemon horde units, Tau infantry, and anything else that is normally T3, Contagions of Nurgle bring them down to T2, which in turn means that Blightlord Comb-Bolters are wounding them on 2+s... with 40 shots from a squad of 10, they can easily clear out a large squad of any of the types of units each turn just with shooting, followed up by wounding on 2+s in melee will all their weapons against the now T2 enemy forces.

 

 

Against T4 MEQ armies, reducing them to T3 means that their Combi-Bolters are wounding on 3+s, their S6 Bubonic Axes are wounding on 2+, and even against T5 Gravis units (which become T4), their rapid-firing Combi-Plasmas can now wound on 2+s.

 

 

The one thing left to see, besides what other parts of the DG Codex can buff them even more, is how much their points end up being. As long as they are reasonably point-costed, I think they will defiantly be seeing lots of time on the tabletop in the near future.

Edited December 12, 2020 by L30n1d4s

[jgascoine011]

It depends on points, wargear and other stratagems/rules combos.

Right now white scars TH/SS terminators and deepstrike in, get a 7" charge on a best 2 out of 3D6, and hit on 2's at S8 AP-3, D4...while having a 1+ save, and able to bring a guy back to life.

 

Currently, the cheapest blight lord terminators can be is 43 points, which is ok. However their issue has always been they either sit on an objective and do nothing all game, or you end up trying to roll a 9 on 2D6 and if they make the charge then great, and if not they do nothing.

SM can get around the 9" charge if they want to, and grey knights have terminators that can put out a lot of high S/D dakka.

 

While yes you can give them all plasma, you have to ask your self why are you then playh DG and not CSM which can do that better and for half the points.

 

So in the end, the answer to your question, will Blight lord terminators be competitve?

Well possible, but gaining an extra wound is not what will make them competitve.

[Emicus]

I think he wrote a bit more than 'just 1 more wound' there.

 

-1 dmg, being t5 and having a -1toughness aura is a big toolbox

[Marshal Loss]

Too much up in the air to know for sure yet, but Blightlords do appear to be one of the biggest winners based on what we've seen so far.

[Plague _Lord]

Blightlords seem great, however we don't know their rules yet.

 

I think possessed might be the big winners, depends on costs though. If we can still buff their strength with nurgle daemons, then they could be potentially wounding marines on a 2+ rerollable.

[Debauchery101]

Blightlords seem great, however we don't know their rules yet.

 

I think possessed might be the big winners, depends on costs though. If we can still buff their strength with nurgle daemons, then they could be potentially wounding marines on a 2+ rerollable.

would be great to finally get the daemonkin units...at least the possessed will be getting the plague weapon tag

[jgascoine011]

I think he wrote a bit more than 'just 1 more wound' there.

 

-1 dmg, being t5 and having a -1toughness aura is a big toolbox

Well they have always been T5.

But my point was more that it makes 0 difference if they still dont kill anything.

 

The best comparison would be to grey knights paladin terminators, but thei big difference between blight lords and paladins is paladins are scary in multiply phases, while Blight lords are only decent in one, and even then it requires them to get the charge off, which paladins dont need to do.

[Special Officer Doofy]

Blightlord's are kinda meh in my opinion. They are going to 3W, sure, but they lost 5+++ in exchange for the slightly weaker -1 damage and going to lose 4++ for 5++ most likely. They are getting the -1T aura, but losing 1S on the flail. Overall I don't know how much of a buff I would call the changes for them.

[Debauchery101]

Blightlord's are kinda meh in my opinion. They are going to 3W, sure, but they lost 5+++ in exchange for the slightly weaker -1 damage and going to lose 4++ for 5++ most likely. They are getting the -1T aura, but losing 1S on the flail. Overall I don't know how much of a buff I would call the changes for them.

if they could deep strike in range of it to use for shooting the same turn it would make these guys have a solid lane to play in.

 

Or allow one of the elite characters be taken in the squad..DG...the ultra boots on the ground faction....has only 5 infantry options that aren't characters...their terminators can't have fists or hammers...you know those 2 weapons that are really good at busting down bulkheads and blast doors which DG specialize in.

[Hathor42]

Eh the gifts of nurgle eminated from them do a good job of rusting or eating away at doors enough for their axes and flails to knock them down.

[L30n1d4s]

Looks like Blightlord Terminators now have M 5" (so probably down to a 5++ as well) and 3A base (4A on the Champ).

[Special Officer Doofy]

Is Hateful Assault not a thing anymore? All the DG units look like they got an extra attack on the datasheets.

 

Edit: It might not be. That might be why everything got the +1A. Mortarion got +1A and does not have Hateful Assault on his data sheet they showed.

Edited December 15, 2020 by Putrid Choir

[WickedJester1013]

I think the extra attack is to put use on par with primaris troops. I hoping we don’t lose the hatful assault but who knows at this point. Edited December 15, 2020 by WickedJester1013

[Ishagu]

I think the extra attack is to put use on par with primaris troops. I hoping we don’t lose the hatful assault but who knows at this point.

But they are far tougher than Primaris. They can be better in some ways, worse in others.

[Dark Legionnare]

Is Hateful Assault not a thing anymore? All the DG units look like they got an extra attack on the datasheets.

Edit: It might not be. That might be why everything got the +1A. Mortarion got +1A and does not have Hateful Assault on his data sheet they showed.

  

I think the extra attack is to put use on par with primaris troops. I hoping we don’t lose the hatful assault but who knows at this point.

 

My assumption is that like SM, it's probably going to be rolled under the umbrella of "bubonic astartes" to keep sheets clean and neat.

[Jings]

 

Is Hateful Assault not a thing anymore? All the DG units look like they got an extra attack on the datasheets.

Edit: It might not be. That might be why everything got the +1A. Mortarion got +1A and does not have Hateful Assault on his data sheet they showed.

  

I think the extra attack is to put use on par with primaris troops. I hoping we don’t lose the hatful assault but who knows at this point.

 

My assumption is that like SM, it's probably going to be rolled under the umbrella of "bubonic astartes" to keep sheets clean and neat.

 

 

Yeah I've been wondering why the worries about losing Hateful Assault are so prevalent. Hateful Volleys have been confirmed to still be a thing, it'd be odd for them to scrap the Assault side of things as well. I reckon it's just not been mentioned because the Death Guard aren't exactly a melee army. 

[Special Officer Doofy]

It's not so much a worry as much as an observation. They showed Malicious Volleys on the 5 day rule tease but not Hateful Assault. I don't think it's a thing anymore for DG. Which is fine. I rather just have the extra attack.

[Waking Dreamer]

 

Is Hateful Assault not a thing anymore? All the DG units look like they got an extra attack on the datasheets.

Edit: It might not be. That might be why everything got the +1A. Mortarion got +1A and does not have Hateful Assault on his data sheet they showed.

  

I think the extra attack is to put use on par with primaris troops. I hoping we don’t lose the hatful assault but who knows at this point.

 

My assumption is that like SM, it's probably going to be rolled under the umbrella of "bubonic astartes" to keep sheets clean and neat.

 

 

That's interesting because there was a new keyword for Grey Knights in one of it's FW unit profiles, "Sanctic Astartes".

 

Just like all of the Chaos SM Chapters/Legions, GKs don't have access to or an equivalent statline for Primaris units. I've been thinking, could these brand new keywords have a function that somewhat compensates Astartes armies who don't have the possibility of having units with the Primaris keyword?

 

Maybe it's part of the +1A for these DG units? Primaris units get +1A, but DG/TS/GK etc. don't get Primaris units so your existing units will get +1A instead...?

[Special Officer Doofy]

I think it's so you have less synergy between the two, so you can't use DG strats on another chaos legion, or use GK strats on a loyal chapter.

 

Angels of death is a rule on datasheets compromised of other rules, has nothing to do with keywords. I don't think bubonic astartes is going to have any rules associated with it like <Fly> or <Vehicle> has rules with it.

 

Otherwise why wouldn't they just attach Hateful assault to <heretic astartes> since DG still has that keyword and you would assume if it still exist normal chaos marines would get it. I could be wrong though.

Edited December 16, 2020 by Putrid Choir

[Dark Legionnare]

I think it's so you have less synergy between the two, so you can't use DG strats on another chaos legion, or use GK strats on a loyal chapter.

 

Angels of death is a rule on datasheets compromised of other rules, has nothing to do with keywords. I don't think bubonic astartes is going to have any rules associated with it like <Fly> or <Vehicle> has rules with it.

 

Otherwise why wouldn't they just attach Hateful assault to <heretic astartes> since DG still has that keyword and you would assume if it still exist normal chaos marines would get it. I could be wrong though.

Could very well be doing that to, to neaten that up like Angels of Death covers so many abilities, like you mentioned.

 

I hadn't noticed they still had that on their sheet as well as bubonic, so yeah, likely under that umbrella instead.

[Debauchery101]

The rules names and what were faction bonuses from 8th were basically fixes in 8th and under 1 title there were multiple rules like bolter discipline. How they seemed to explain it in one of the podcasts was theyre basically just adding those bonuses into the statline and the skills right to the data sheet. There was some RAW confusion and exploitation when non marine and some units like daemon engines that adopted the faction keywords were getting unintended bonuses.

[Xenith]

It depends on points, wargear and other stratagems/rules combos.

Right now white scars TH/SS terminators and deepstrike in, get a 7" charge on a best 2 out of 3D6, and hit on 2's at S8 AP-3, D4...while having a 1+ save, and able to bring a guy back to life.

 

However their issue has always been they ... sit on an objective and do nothing all game, 

 

 

 

Well they have always been T5.

But my point was more that it makes 0 difference if they still dont kill anything.

 

I think you're underestimating the power of objectives in 9th. They're sitting on an objective, yes, but not doing nothing. They're scoring each turn and winning you the game. Many missions involve holding the centre ground, and if they can do that for 5 turns and make stuff within 6" of them -1T, then they're doing a great job. 

[Dark Legionnare]

 I think you're underestimating the power of objectives in 9th. They're sitting on an objective, yes, but not doing nothing. They're scoring each turn and winning you the game. Many missions involve holding the centre ground, and if they can do that for 5 turns and make stuff within 6" of them -1T, then they're doing a great job.

 

 

Exactly. So many folks think the name of the game is about being dead-killy. (much to our local catachan player's continued dismay losing by 20+ points consistently.)

 

I like a lot of the changes so far, including the auras. I still prefer the old DR, but if it means the plague surgeon probably has a better use as being a FNP bubble generator (rather than a lackluster re-roll 1's, which I imagine he's absolutely going to have to be modified to do) I'm stoked for the overall changes, and having some Blightlords dropping near him to dakka and hold, is DG goodness.

 

With or without old DR, hardy lads.

 

Most sad to see terminator armor flavor still being axed across the board though as it seems will likely be the case. All flavors just becoming M5 5++. My least favorite casualty of 9th so far by a mile, even more than DR.

[Iron Sage]

I want to chime in and agree concerning the point concerning objectives and the theory that it's "useless to be resilient if you don't kill stuff". Anyone who has actually played 9ed knows this is false (which is incidentally one of the reasons why it was so painful with the Feel No Pain nerf combined with the probably nerf to invul, as most of us were expecting much more resilient terminators and plague marines than what we are most probably getting). But yes, being able to contest an objective and being hard to remove from an objective, is incredibly powerful in 9ed. More so than actually killing stuff (although of course, you have to be able to kill something).

[McElMcNinja]

I have recently got in a few games and the biggest issue I’ve had with Blightlords is they’re not objective secure. I charged a unit of 10 scarabs, killed half of them, he reanimated 2 bases, and at the end he’s got 7 bases to my 5 on the objective. Over the course of the game I only lost 1 BL to what equated to 15 scarabs (thanks to reanimation).

Now 5 Deathshroud in the same scenario killed all 10 bases. My opinion if you’re looking for terminators to sit on objectives, go with the DS.