Grey Knights/Space Marine Force Structure Compare/Contrast

[Skywrath]

 

Are people expecting the 1 Grand Master per detachment rule coming our way?

 

 

Definitely. I wonder if generic foot GM will ever become a viable option. 

 

 

If that happens, then Grand Masters should gain the ability to re-roll all failed hits, like Draigo, and BC's can re-roll ones. Give GM's also Cast 2, Deny 2. Comparing BC's to regular marines, they would be captains, and the GM's would be pretty much Chapter Masters. This holds even more true when you consider that Grand Masters of the Dark Angels re-roll all failed hits for either Deathwing if Belial, and Ravenwing if Sammael. Sure, we aren't Dark Angels, but just a parallel there. I wonder whether we will also get the equivalent of a Lieutenant where you would re-roll wounds of one? Sure we have an arguably more powerful version in the sense of the Tide of Fury, but those might be for a re-work, especially considering how many updated factions have way to ignore cover, which "breaks" our tide of shadows. But yeah, fully expecting that as well, although I wonder whether that would include Draigo, so we can't include Draigo + Voldus together.

 

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Please note that this post is #1 of 14 posts moved to this newly created topic. The introductory post is #15. Please read post #15 before posting here. If you have any question please contact me via PM. 

 

Brother Lunkhead

 

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Edited December 16, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[Waking Dreamer]

Isn't it:

 

1. Chapter Master = Supreme Grand Master = Azrael = Draigo = re-roll failed hits aura

2. Captain = Grand Master = Belial = Voldus = re-roll hit rolls of 1s aura

3. Lieutenant = Brother Captain....? 

 

 

 

 

Definitely. I wonder if generic foot GM will ever become a viable option. 

 

 

What rules would it require for you to see the generic GM a fair alternative over Voldus?

 

Eg. What combinations of brand new WLTs and Relics put on GM would make you want to use him?

[Gnomeo]

Walking dreamer is correct.

 

Space marine captains are the leader of a company. Which is the same as a grand master (but we have a cooler name) this would lead a brother captain to be more like a lieutenant. However I feel he is kinda filling that role with his special ability as it is

[Skywrath]

Isn't it:

 

1. Chapter Master = Supreme Grand Master = Azrael = Draigo = re-roll failed hits aura

2. Captain = Grand Master = Belial = Voldus = re-roll hit rolls of 1s aura

3. Lieutenant = Brother Captain....? 

 

 

 

 

Definitely. I wonder if generic foot GM will ever become a viable option. 

 

 

What rules would it require for you to see the generic GM a fair alternative over Voldus?

 

Eg. What combinations of brand new WLTs and Relics put on GM would make you want to use him?

 

By that logic, then why aren't our BC re-rolling 1's to wound and are instead of re-rolling 1's to hit? Our BC's are the equivalent of Captains, it says so in the name, Brother-Captain. 

 

My understanding is that:

 

Kaldor = Azrael = Voldus = Grand Master (re-roll all failed hits), Chapter Master. Then there is the fluff angle to consider with Draigo being MIA for most of the 41st millenium and that task designates to the other 8 GM, them being effectively Chapter Masters, as all brotherhoods work independently for most of the time. 

 

Brother-Captain = Space Marine Captain (re-roll all 1's).  

 

We don't have the equivalent of a Lieutenant - we have our tide of fury for that. 

 

Walking dreamer is correct.

 

Space marine captains are the leader of a company. Which is the same as a grand master (but we have a cooler name) this would lead a brother captain to be more like a lieutenant. However I feel he is kinda filling that role with his special ability as it is

 

That is an interesting point, actually, but as how the rules are playing out, BC's are the copy-paste of a Captain with a "psuedo-lieutenant" ability thrown in, that is specific to us. I do think that GM's are pretty much the Chapter Masters by the above logic. 

[Waking Dreamer]

 

 

By that logic, then why aren't our BC re-rolling 1's to wound and are instead of re-rolling 1's to hit? Our BC's are the equivalent of Captains, it says so in the name, Brother-Captain. 

 

My understanding is that:

 

Kaldor = Azrael = Voldus = Grand Master (re-roll all failed hits), Chapter Master. Then there is the fluff angle to consider with Draigo being MIA for most of the 41st millenium and that task designates to the other 8 GM, them being effectively Chapter Masters, as all brotherhoods work independently for most of the time. 

 

Brother-Captain = Space Marine Captain (re-roll all 1's).  

 

We don't have the equivalent of a Lieutenant - we have our tide of fury for that. 

 

 

 

You are confusing hierarchy equivalents between different SM Chapters...by expecting the distinct nuance in naming/title choices - to mean exactly the same thing in very different SM Chapters. 

 

Can you explain what you think a Chapter Master is in charge of? Im not talking table rules, strictly the lore. It's not just because the word "Master" is in Chapter Master, and also in Grand Master so that means they are equivalent in leadership hierarchy. Because they are not. Same thing for Company Captain and Brother Captain, game rules aside their leadership hierarchy is not the same. 

[Gnomeo]

 

 

Walking dreamer is correct.

 

Space marine captains are the leader of a company. Which is the same as a grand master (but we have a cooler name) this would lead a brother captain to be more like a lieutenant. However I feel he is kinda filling that role with his special ability as it is

nah not correct, that's What the Brother captain does for us. Our GM's are essentially a Chapter Master else where, remember we don't follow the Index Astartes that Gman set up after the heresy. Sure, in comparison to the rules, our GMs and BCs look different to a generic SM with similar rules. But in the fluff, that's exactly what they are.

 

I was also thinking about how to get the lieutenant's reroll wounds rule into our codex and the logical choice would be to give it to the BC seeing as he doesn't currently have an aura like that. Only psychic locus. And this would further add to the assumption that a BC = Lieutenant's rank in other chapter's. But it could also be given to the Brotherhood champion, as he used to have auras and needs a buff or two to make him think about being taken.

I would recommend you check your lore. Correct we do not follow the codex we were founded by malcador. Which as we constantly talk about marines here I am just gona say. Yes we are changed genetically the same way but in terms of everything else we are completely different to marines and I think a lot of comparisons should be ignored. Lore wise we act completely differently. We deal with :cuss a space marine wish's they could handle.

 

Despite me saying not to compare. The structure does share some similarities with space marines.

Single leader draigo --- chapter master.

 

A chapter is broken in to 10 compaines each led by a captain

 

We are broken in to companies as well. Each led by a grand master.

 

Traditionally a brother captain for grey knights was the leader of. A terminator squad. And could also lead the army on the field of battle. And if you want to go really deep in to the lore normally strike forces 2-4 units were led by a justicar

[Waking Dreamer]

@Reskin @Skywrath

 

You guys do know that their is only ONE Chapter Master per SM Chapter right? That is why he is titled "Master" of the (entire) Chapter. Why would there be EIGHT Chapter Masters for just ONE Chapter....?

 

A GK Grand Master is only in charge of one Brotherhood not the entire GKs Chapter. The only one that could be considered in charge of the entire Grey Knights Chapter is Supreme Grand Master Draigo. Voldus (Grand Master) =/= Draigo (Supreme Grand Master). Voldus is not leader of the entire GK Chapter, he is only 1 of 8 leaders for the Brotherhoods, so he is NOT a Chapter Master ---> Grand Master =/= Chapter Master.

[Skywrath]

@Reskin @Skywrath

 

You guys do know that their is only ONE Chapter Master per SM Chapter right? That is why he is titled "Master" of the (entire) Chapter. Why would there be EIGHT Chapter Masters for just ONE Chapter....?

 

A GK Grand Master is only in charge of one Brotherhood not the entire GKs Chapter. The only one that could be considered in charge of the entire Grey Knights Chapter is Supreme Grand Master Draigo. Voldus (Grand Master) =/= Draigo (Supreme Grand Master). Voldus is not leader of the entire GK Chapter, he is only 1 of 8 leaders for the Brotherhoods, so he is NOT a Chapter Master ---> Grand Master =/= Chapter Master.

 

Yes, I am aware of that, and on from the perspective of the table-top, you are probably right (as far as previous 8th edition rules are concerned). But, let's play devil's advocate here for a moment and open our minds.  

 

As I pointed out before, the brotherhoods work (for the most part) independently, with again Draigo being missing for most of the millennium. That's our Supreme Grand Master gone. Where does that leave us? With the Grand Master. Let's assume the 3rd Brotherhood went into battle alone. The leader would be the Grand Master of that Brotherhood, or a BC, no? So for all intents and purposes the Grand Master is acting like a supreme commander of that brotherhood. This is even more ironic, from the perspective that again, Draigo is missing, so the leadership of the Grey Knights is ALWAYS assigned to the meritocratic council of eight. So those eight come to a unanimous decision which then is taken as if it was the command/decision from Draigo. So the 8 GM's come to a single conclusion, without the input of Draigo, effectively making the council equivalent to a Supreme Grand Master. 

 

My point? Draigo doesn't have an input, fluff-wise, because he is busy kicking demon-hide, everything is done by the Grand Masters, except on those two-three occasions he popped up. I haven't read any fluff yet that says that everything is run past Draigo when he is in the warp, that reinforces his position as a Supreme Grand Master.

 

So, translating this into the TT Mechanics, that makes the effective command structure like this:

 

Supreme/Grand Master > Brother-Captain > Justicar. Or to put loosely into perspective:

Chapter Master > Captain > Sergeant. 

 

Realistically, I just thought I would inject a perspective into this conversation in light of the no more than one captain can be included into a detachment due to a technicality.

 

That being said, we are again straying a bit off-topic, so let's just move on from this (all of this off-topic discussion was my fault, and I apologise)

Edited December 15, 2020 by Skywrath

[Waking Dreamer]

GW still gives us the Draigo model to use. Draigo's rules is equivalent to a Chapter Master. We can use him just like a regular Chapter Master on the table regardless of his fluff.

Giving Voldus / GM / GMNDK models the same Chapter Master "re-roll failed to hit rolls" aura as Draigo, when other SM Chapters can only have 1 model in their army do it...still doesn't make sense to me.

If it's a particular wish/desire for some, fine.

For me, the justification that has been put forward for it...I would definitely have to disagree.

Edited December 16, 2020 by Waking Dreamer

[Gnomeo]

 

 

@Reskin @Skywrath

 

You guys do know that their is only ONE Chapter Master per SM Chapter right? That is why he is titled "Master" of the (entire) Chapter. Why would there be EIGHT Chapter Masters for just ONE Chapter....?

 

A GK Grand Master is only in charge of one Brotherhood not the entire GKs Chapter. The only one that could be considered in charge of the entire Grey Knights Chapter is Supreme Grand Master Draigo. Voldus (Grand Master) =/= Draigo (Supreme Grand Master). Voldus is not leader of the entire GK Chapter, he is only 1 of 8 leaders for the Brotherhoods, so he is NOT a Chapter Master ---> Grand Master =/= Chapter Master.

Yes, I am aware of that, and on from the perspective of the table-top, you are probably right (as far as previous 8th edition rules are concerned). But, let's play devil's advocate here for a moment and open our minds.

 

As I pointed out before, the brotherhoods work (for the most part) independently, with again Draigo being missing for most of the millennium. That's our Supreme Grand Master gone. Where does that leave us? With the Grand Master. Let's assume the 3rd Brotherhood went into battle alone. The leader would be the Grand Master of that Brotherhood, or a BC, no? So for all intents and purposes the Grand Master is acting like a supreme commander of that brotherhood. This is even more ironic, from the perspective that again, Draigo is missing, so the leadership of the Grey Knights is ALWAYS assigned to the meritocratic council of eight. So those eight come to a unanimous decision which then is taken as if it was the command/decision from Draigo. So the 8 GM's come to a single conclusion, without the input of Draigo, effectively making the council equivalent to a Supreme Grand Master.

 

My point? Draigo doesn't have an input, fluff-wise, because he is busy kicking demon-hide, everything is done by the Grand Masters, except on those two-three occasions he popped up. I haven't read any fluff yet that says that everything is run past Draigo when he is in the warp, that reinforces his position as a Supreme Grand Master.

 

So, translating this into the TT Mechanics, that makes the effective command structure like this:

 

Supreme/Grand Master > Brother-Captain > Justicar. Or to put loosely into perspective:

Chapter Master > Captain > Sergeant.

 

Realistically, I just thought I would inject a perspective into this conversation in light of the no more than one captain can be included into a detachment due to a technicality.

 

That being said, we are again straying a bit off-topic, so let's just move on from this (all of this off-topic discussion was my fault, and I apologise)

I agree this is going off topic. I understand the point you are making however disagree.

Yes it is a council of grand master.

 

However normal space marine companies are ofter of buy themselves as well. Acting independently away from the chapter and led by a captain.

 

Also several companies are often together the captains again vote just like the grandmasters. However they are all still captains. I feel you and reskin are focused on rules while me and walking dreamer are focused on lore.

[Skywrath]

 

 

@Reskin @Skywrath

 

You guys do know that their is only ONE Chapter Master per SM Chapter right? That is why he is titled "Master" of the (entire) Chapter. Why would there be EIGHT Chapter Masters for just ONE Chapter....?

 

A GK Grand Master is only in charge of one Brotherhood not the entire GKs Chapter. The only one that could be considered in charge of the entire Grey Knights Chapter is Supreme Grand Master Draigo. Voldus (Grand Master) =/= Draigo (Supreme Grand Master). Voldus is not leader of the entire GK Chapter, he is only 1 of 8 leaders for the Brotherhoods, so he is NOT a Chapter Master ---> Grand Master =/= Chapter Master.

Yes, I am aware of that, and on from the perspective of the table-top, you are probably right (as far as previous 8th edition rules are concerned). But, let's play devil's advocate here for a moment and open our minds.

 

As I pointed out before, the brotherhoods work (for the most part) independently, with again Draigo being missing for most of the millennium. That's our Supreme Grand Master gone. Where does that leave us? With the Grand Master. Let's assume the 3rd Brotherhood went into battle alone. The leader would be the Grand Master of that Brotherhood, or a BC, no? So for all intents and purposes the Grand Master is acting like a supreme commander of that brotherhood. This is even more ironic, from the perspective that again, Draigo is missing, so the leadership of the Grey Knights is ALWAYS assigned to the meritocratic council of eight. So those eight come to a unanimous decision which then is taken as if it was the command/decision from Draigo. So the 8 GM's come to a single conclusion, without the input of Draigo, effectively making the council equivalent to a Supreme Grand Master.

 

My point? Draigo doesn't have an input, fluff-wise, because he is busy kicking demon-hide, everything is done by the Grand Masters, except on those two-three occasions he popped up. I haven't read any fluff yet that says that everything is run past Draigo when he is in the warp, that reinforces his position as a Supreme Grand Master.

 

So, translating this into the TT Mechanics, that makes the effective command structure like this:

 

Supreme/Grand Master > Brother-Captain > Justicar. Or to put loosely into perspective:

Chapter Master > Captain > Sergeant.

 

Realistically, I just thought I would inject a perspective into this conversation in light of the no more than one captain can be included into a detachment due to a technicality.

 

That being said, we are again straying a bit off-topic, so let's just move on from this (all of this off-topic discussion was my fault, and I apologise)

I agree this is going off topic. I understand the point you are making however disagree.

Yes it is a council of grand master.

 

However normal space marine companies are ofter of buy themselves as well. Acting independently away from the chapter and led by a captain.

 

Also several companies are often together the captains again vote just like the grandmasters. However they are all still captains. I feel you and reskin are focused on rules while me and walking dreamer are focused on lore.

 

 

Actually, most of my reasoning is based on lore, I just took it one step futher and tried applying that to the game. Tried being the keyword here, but that's irrelevant at this point.

 

That being said, and steering this topic back onto-on topic territory, do we all think that our casts/deny that most of our units have is reasonable? I could see an argument for a BC knowing two spells/casting two?

[Weltbild]

Perhaps not the Brother-Captain, but I think GMs definitely shouldn‘t stand behind Librarians in psychic prowess.

 

I also find it amusing, that they get two casts but only know one power.

Edited December 15, 2020 by Weltbild

[Gnomeo]

Well they do know smite. Its a tricky one. Lore wise the GM has multiple other skills eg being a tactician, leader, commander. Where as the librarian is a powerful psyker in an army where everyone is a psyker. And how it currently is represents this to a degree. And if you want to make a gm as good as a librarian we have lore master.

 

I would love to see the gm go to 2 known but then also a buff to the librarian. But the issue is where do you draw the line? As if the librarians and gm's get buffed voldus needs a buff to stand out.

[Brother Lunkhead]

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Introductory post. Please read before posting.

 

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When our ships ply the warp,

the Daemon will tremble.

When our brothers march,

the Daemon will quake.

When our blades strike,

the Daemon will bleed.

Where go we,

the Daemon will be defeated.

May it ever be so until none remain.

 

=][= Grand Master Vorth Mordrak =][=

 

Appearing on the roster of the many new Space Marine chapters of the Second Founding was one designated 666. But, Chapter 666, the Grey Knights was set apart from the other Space Marine chapters. Shrouded in secrecy and created under the direct auspices of the Emperor by Malcador the Sigilite, the Grey Knights bear only a superficial resemblance to their Second Founding brethren. They do not follow the dictates of Roboute Guilliman's Codex Astartes. Their structure, ranks, and disposition of forces are dictated by the demands of their singular and terrible war against the denizens of the warp.

 

The purpose of this thread is to generate discussion concerning the organizational/force structure of the Grey Knights and how it compares and contrasts to other Space Marine chapters (both Codex and non-Codex compliant chapters) both in lore and in game. Similarly, how does the Chapter's unique structure enhance and limit it's effectiveness in lore and in game?

 

Before we get started, the ground rules are as follows. Now wish listing. The discussion will be bound by the lore and game rules as they exist today. So, no speculating on how the Grey Knights would look if Lord Kaldor Draigo permanently returned from his vacation in the warp, or what if the GK's had greater access to anti-armor weapons, other transport, Primaris marines, etc.... and although I shouldn't have to say it, I will anyway:

 

Keep it focused and keep it friendly

 

I'll start this off by pulling a few posts form the Grey Knights 9th edition wishlist thread. Let the games begin

 

NOTE: This is actually the introductory post to this thread. Since this thread was created today and the previous 14 posts moved here from another thread are from yesterday this introductory post appears as post #15 because the time stamp cannot be altered.

Edited December 16, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[The Woodsman]

Not to beat a dead horse, but as quoted by Lunkhead, Grey Knights follow a completely different Chapter organization than Codex Marines. They have their Chapter Command which is basically the Supreme Grand Master, aka Chapter Master, currently Kaldor Draigo. Rules-wise, this is represented by a better statline than a regular Grand Master, and a full re-rolls aura. 

 

The biggest difference is the breaking down into Brotherhoods rather than Companies, of which their are 8 rather than 10. These are each led by a small council, comprising of the Brotherhood's Grand Master, its Brother-Captain and its Brotherhood Champion. Whether or not they can really be compared to the Captain/Lieutenant jam that Codex Marines have, I'm not sure. The Grand Master is the top dog of the Brotherhood, and each one is also Master of one of the Chapter's branches (1st Bro. Steward of the Armory, 2nd is Admiral of the Fleet, 3rd is Warden of the Librarius, etc.), kind of like Space Marine Captains are. However, in most instances the Grand Master doesn't actually take to the field. That's where the Brother-Captain comes in, he's pretty much the field commander of a Grey Knights Strike Force, considering that most of the time, in the fluff, a Strike Force is comprised of a few squads at most (sometimes just the one), and might not need higher clearance than a Justicar - though the Sergeant equivalent, as far as authority within the Imperium goes, I'd wager Justicars have a bit more weight. If any of you have read the Uriel Ventris book The Killing Ground, (don't want to spoil though here) we do come across a Grey Knights Strike Force, which is basically a Strike Squad led by a Justicar. The Brotherhood Champion is basically the Brotherhood's Master at Arms, teaching new recruits and ensuring the Brotherhood is up to scratch with the training, bladework and combat discipline - in this instance more like a Codex Company's Lieutenant. I feel its kind of like Grey Knight ranks are a step higher than their Codex counterparts, but also kind of fill different roles. 

 

Grey Knights also have the Hall of Champions, where the Paladins (all 100 of them) and the Chaplains and Venerables hang out - this is also led by a (9th) Brother-Captain, the High Paladin (1 of 100). This is, to me, our Veteran Company. It will almost never be deployed in full, at least not together, but its squads are dispatched throughout the Strike Forces being deployed. Finally comes the Chambers of Purity - the Purifier Order. Of a variable number, these guys kind of sit outside the Chapter Roster and do their own thing, unless expressly called upon by a Grand Master / the Prognosticars. These guys are headed up by a Castellan (Crowe), who acts both as the leader and the Brotherhood Champion.

 

Simply put, the Chapter is lead by one Supreme Grand Master, who is assisted by a sort of "ruling council" (think GoT), comprised of the 9 Brother-Captains and the Champion of the Purifiers, who are each the Master of one of the 8 Brotherhoods and two "veteran" branches (so really, 10 Brotherhoods/Companies). I assume that amongst the Chaplains, Librarians, Techmarines and Apothecaries there is a head honcho who has his say in the council's decisions. However, Brother-Captains are the guys responsible and in charge of the Brotherhoods on an operational, "day-to-day" level, like the Codex Captains are. Brotherhood Champions (as I've mentioned) support the Brother-Captain in the field and in the barracks, like a Lieutenant would (though only one Champion versus two Lieutenants). Justicars are then your Sergeant equivalent, but with higher authority - though, Space Marines don't always operate on a Company level, remember that in the fluff, these guys are complete badasses that can take on hordes of lesser warriors. More often than not, a single squad of Space Marines is all it takes to take out an enemy's command structure, while the Guard then cleans up the mess. We've just become so used to seeing loads of different characters on the board, but remember back in 4th/5th edition where you could only ever take two HQ slots? You wouldn't always see a Captain, and very rarely a Chapter Master. As Gnomeo pointed out, back in the Daemonhunter days, Brother-Captains were your Terminator unit leaders, but could be taken solo as a HQ slot (or with a retinue of Terminators, he'd then lose Independant Character). A Grand Master was a whole other investment in points, in a very, very elite army, because the whole idea was that these guys only take to the field when absolutely necessary - fighting the Daemons of the Warp is as much about the rituals and bookkeeping that happen on Titan than it is about smashing Greater Daemons in the gob. 

 

Its just good to keep in mind that the Grey Knights operate on a completely different level of operations than Codex Marines, they're more of a specialist warrior order than a true military force that fit into the Imperium's military structure - Warmasters and the likes don't really get to boss us around. They therefore don't really compare to their Codex counterparts, although some similarities can be drawn. As far as the character restrictions go, I could really see the same restrictions that Marines and Necrons have gotten so far, the idea being that Games Workshop are probably trying to steer list-building towards something resembling what could happen in the lore (Rule of 3, 1 of each "unique" character in a detachment, etc.), just because a Chapter doesn't have more than one Master of Sanctity or Chief Apothecary, that you wouldn't really see two captains from the same Chapter running a company or smaller sized task force. In the same train of thought, spamming GMDK completely goes against the fluff of Grey Knights (hoping BCs will get the mount as well!). 

 

Sorry if it took a slight "prediction of the future" tangeant, did my best to keep it locked in the present. 

[Brother Lunkhead]

Nice observations and breakdown  Brother The Woodsmen. The Grey Knights are indeed quite a different organization compared to their Space Marine brethren. Since the Daemon hosts of the warp have no military structure of a style that would be recognizable, the force structure, tactics, and even weapons are substantially different (or at least utilized differently) from those of other Astartes chapters. There are a few tweaks I would make to your observations on command structure though.

 

The biggest difference is the breaking down into Brotherhoods rather than Companies, of which their are 8 rather than 10. These are each led by a small council, comprising of the Brotherhood's Grand Master, its Brother-Captain and its Brotherhood Champion. Whether or not they can really be compared to the Captain/Lieutenant jam that Codex Marines have, I'm not sure. The Grand Master is the top dog of the Brotherhood, and each one is also Master of one of the Chapter's branches (1st Bro. Steward of the Armory, 2nd is Admiral of the Fleet, 3rd is Warden of the Librarius, etc.), kind of like Space Marine Captains are. However, in most instances the Grand Master doesn't actually take to the field. That's where the Brother-Captain comes in, he's pretty much the field commander of a Grey Knights Strike Force, considering that most of the time, in the fluff, a Strike Force is comprised of a few squads at most (sometimes just the one), and might not need higher clearance than a Justicar - though the Sergeant equivalent, as far as authority within the Imperium goes, I'd wager Justicars have a bit more weight.

Quite right on the Brotherhoods. Beyond fielding approximately 100 brothers each, Brotherhoods bear no resemblance to Space Marine battle companies. However, like Space Marine companies command structure there is a chain of command, and not a council. Grand Master to Brother Captain to Squad Leaders (Terminator Justicars, Justicars, etc.). The Brotherhood Champion and Ancient act as a command staff of sorts similar to a Command Squad. Brotherhood Captains do generally have tacitical command of squads in the field, but the Grand Master's primary responsibility is on the battlefield. Like Captains of Space Marine companies, many of the ancillary responsibilities (Steward of the Armory, Admiral of the Fleet, etc.) are actually run by a staff, making these titles mostly ceremonial. Grand Masters are especially visible and in charge in the field during vital campaigns where a Brother-Captain might not have the necessary experience. A prime example would be when one of the Conclave Diabolus is sighted and engaged.

 

 

Simply put, the Chapter is lead by one Supreme Grand Master, who is assisted by a sort of "ruling council" (think GoT), comprised of the 9 Brother-Captains and the Champion of the Purifiers, who are each the Master of one of the 8 Brotherhoods and two "veteran" branches (so really, 10 Brotherhoods/Companies).

As stated in the Grey Knights Codex, the Chapter is "governed and directed" by the Chapter Council, consisting of the Chapter Lord (Supreme Grand Master) and eight Grand Masters. Even though the Chapter Lords final word is law, his appointment to office is by unanimous assent of the Grand Masters of the Grey Knights Brotherhoods. Other high ranking persons, such as the High Paladin and the Castellan of the Chamber of Purity would act as advisors to the Council, but would hold no rank or vote. On the whole though your observations on the workings are good, you just got some of the ranking members wrong.

 

Its just good to keep in mind that the Grey Knights operate on a completely different level of operations than Codex Marines, they're more of a specialist warrior order than a true military force that fit into the Imperium's military structure - Warmasters and the likes don't really get to boss us around.

Warmasters don't actually get to boss around other Space Marine chapters either.... at least, not anymore  When you use the term "true military force" I think you mean 'traditional'. The Grey Knights do indeed operate on a completely different level, but they are still a Space Marine chapter. As Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus, they are still a military force.

 

Looks like we're off to a good start here, but we've just scratched the surface. There's a lot more to cover

Edited December 17, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[The Woodsman]

Thanks for clarifying Brother Lunkhead. You're absolutely correct in that there is a chain of command in a Brotherhood - I in no way meant to say Brother-Captains and Brotherhood had the same authority as a Grand Master. My point was mainly that Grand Masters seemed to be a little "further up" than a Company Captain, and that Brother-Captains are the closer comparison to the Codex Captain. 

 

 

 

 

 

Simply put, the Chapter is lead by one Supreme Grand Master, who is assisted by a sort of "ruling council" (think GoT), comprised of the 9 Brother-Captains and the Champion of the Purifiers, who are each the Master of one of the 8 Brotherhoods and two "veteran" branches (so really, 10 Brotherhoods/Companies).

As stated in the Grey Knights Codex, the Chapter is "governed and directed" by the Chapter Council, consisting of the Chapter Lord (Supreme Grand Master) and eight Grand Masters. Even though the Chapter Lords final word is law, his appointment to office is by unanimous assent of the Grand Masters of the Grey Knights Brotherhoods. Other high ranking persons, such as the High Paladin and the Castellan of the Chamber of Purity would act as advisors to the Council, but would hold no rank or vote. On the whole though your observations on the workings are good, you just got some of the ranking members wrong.

 

 

After taking a peek at the Codex again, I noticed the High Paladin is a Brother-Captain, not a Grand Master, so absolutely not the same weight as one of the 8 Masters. 

 

 

 

 

Its just good to keep in mind that the Grey Knights operate on a completely different level of operations than Codex Marines, they're more of a specialist warrior order than a true military force that fit into the Imperium's military structure - Warmasters and the likes don't really get to boss us around.

Warmasters don't actually get to boss around other Space Marine chapters either.... at least, not anymore  When you use the term "true military force" I think you mean 'traditional'. The Grey Knights do indeed operate on a completely different level, but they are still a Space Marine chapter. As Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus, they are still a military force.

 

Looks like we're off to a good start here, but we've just scratched the surface. There's a lot more to cover

 

 Not that Warmasters could command whole Chapters at a whim (not since the days of the Heresy yikes) but the way I understood it is that they could use their influence to have them help out in a conflict, though the Chapter Master of the involved Chapter would have the final say in his Companies' use. If you look at the Sabbat Worlds Crusade, for example, doesn't Warmaster Macaroth (and really Slaydo before him) get the Silver Guard, White Scars and Iron Snakes involved, plus a few others? I don't know if the order would come from him or the High Lords, though. And yes, I wasn't saying that Grey Knights aren't a military organization, just that they kind of sit apart from the Imperium's day to day military roster.

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

 

Its just good to keep in mind that the Grey Knights operate on a completely different level of operations than Codex Marines, they're more of a specialist warrior order than a true military force that fit into the Imperium's military structure - Warmasters and the likes don't really get to boss us around.

Warmasters don't actually get to boss around other Space Marine chapters either.... at least, not anymore  When you use the term "true military force" I think you mean 'traditional'. The Grey Knights do indeed operate on a completely different level, but they are still a Space Marine chapter. As Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus, they are still a military force.

 

Looks like we're off to a good start here, but we've just scratched the surface. There's a lot more to cover

 

 Not that Warmasters could command whole Chapters at a whim (not since the days of the Heresy yikes) but the way I understood it is that they could use their influence to have them help out in a conflict, though the Chapter Master of the involved Chapter would have the final say in his Companies' use. If you look at the Sabbat Worlds Crusade, for example, doesn't Warmaster Macaroth (and really Slaydo before him) get the Silver Guard, White Scars and Iron Snakes involved, plus a few others? I don't know if the order would come from him or the High Lords, though. And yes, I wasn't saying that Grey Knights aren't a military organization, just that they kind of sit apart from the Imperium's day to day military roster.

No doubt a Warmaster would have considerable influence, but he would have to petition a Space Marine chapter like anyone else. As you point out, the Chapter Master will have final say as to whether or not to send aid and what form that aid will come in. In the case of the Sabbat World Crusade, Warmaster Slaydo enlisted the aid of the Silver Guard in the form of a chapter task force lead by Chapter Master Veegum himself (see The Sabbat Worlds Crusade (background book) and Blood Pact (novel) both by Dan Abnett for details). Later, for the Salvation's Reach mission Warmaster Macaroth enlisted aid from the Silver Guard, White Scars, and Iron Snakes chapters in the form of one brother each (see Salvation's Reach (novel) by Dan Abnett).

 

Although there are a number of examples of the Grey Knights participating in large Imperial campaigns, the First War for Armageddon being one example, I don't think a Warmaster could petition them in the same way. At the very least, if he was even aware of them, he would have to petition the Inquisition (the Ordo Maleus specifically). I suspect though, if a situation was so dire as for a Warmaster to petition aid from the Grey Knights specifically, they would already be aware of the situation, either from the Ordo Maleus or more likely from their own prognosticators of the 4th Brotherhood.

 

And yes, I wasn't saying that Grey Knights aren't a military organization, just that they kind of sit apart from the Imperium's day to day military roster.

Right you are, sir

Edited December 17, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[Shagah]

[i think a key difference between Grey Knights and most other Chapters is that each Brotherhood is essentially self sufficient and balanced.  We have Veterans in the form of Dreadnoughts and Terminators (I know they are troops for us, but this is not the case for anyone else),  FA in the form of Interceptors, and Hvy Spt in the form of Purgation Squads.  In almost everyother Chapter you have to mix Coys up to get this or request Chapter level resources.] DEBUNKED

 

Also there are no neophyte Grey Knights in the operational Brotherhoods.

Edited December 19, 2020 by Shagah

[Brother Lunkhead]

I think a key difference between Grey Knights and most oother Chapters is that each Brotherhood is essentially self sufficient and balanced.  We have Veterans in the form of Dreadnoughts and Terminators (I know they are troops for us, but this is not the case for anyone else),  FA in the form of Interceptors, and Hvy Spt in the form of Purgation Squads.  In almost everyother Chapter you have to mix Coys up to get this or request Chapter level resources.

Also there are no neophyte Grey Knights.

 

Battle Companies in Space Marine chapters are self sufficient for most actions with a core of six tactical squads supported by two fast attack squads and two heavy support squads and one command squad to coordinate.

 

Greys Knights brotherhoods do have their own Terminator squads, but if you compare the core force of a brotherhood with the formation of a battle company, a brotherhood would be ill prepared for normal Space Marine operations. On the other hand, a battle company would be ill suited for routine Grey Knights operations performed by a single brotherhood. Come to think of it, most Space Marine chapters are probably ill suited to perform the typical mission of a single Grey Knights brotherhood

 

Grey Knights neophytes are found in the 8th Brotherhood.

Edited December 19, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[Shagah]

 

I think a key difference between Grey Knights and most oother Chapters is that each Brotherhood is essentially self sufficient and balanced.  We have Veterans in the form of Dreadnoughts and Terminators (I know they are troops for us, but this is not the case for anyone else),  FA in the form of Interceptors, and Hvy Spt in the form of Purgation Squads.  In almost everyother Chapter you have to mix Coys up to get this or request Chapter level resources.

Also there are no neophyte Grey Knights.

 

Battle Companies in Space Marine chapters are self sufficient for most actions with a core of six tactical squads supported by two fast attack squads and two heavy support squads and one command squad to coordinate.

 

Greys Knights brotherhoods do have their own Terminator squads, but if you compare the core force of a brotherhood with the formation of a battle company, a brotherhood would be ill prepared for normal Space Marine operations. On the other hand, a battle company would be ill suited for routine Grey Knights operations performed by a single brotherhood. Come to think of it, most Space Marine chapters are probably ill suited to perform the typical mission of a single Grey Knights brotherhood

 

Grey Knights neophytes are found in the 8th Brotherhood.

 

 

Ooops!  Fair call.  Not sure what I was thinking re Coy make up.  Definitely a major brain fail on my part.

 

On the neophyte thing though, I believe they do not actually appear in any of the Brotherhoods.  While in the current codex it makes reference to newly minted GK starting life in the 8th, it does not say that they are neophytes.  The previous codices made it clear that neophytes were not considered part of the GK fighting force, and that assignment to a Brotherhood only came after the final trials and rasieing to full battle-brother.  I am guessing this has remained true, as since Third no where in the three pure codices or the Daemonhunters codex has there ever been a GK "Scout" or "Neophyte" type profile. 

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

On the neophyte thing though, I believe they do not actually appear in any of the Brotherhoods.  While in the current codex it makes reference to newly minted GK starting life in the 8th, it does not say that they are neophytes.  The previous codices made it clear that neophytes were not considered part of the GK fighting force, and that assignment to a Brotherhood only came after the final trials and rasieing to full battle-brother.  I am guessing this has remained true, as since Third no where in the three pure codices or the Daemonhunters codex has there ever been a GK "Scout" or "Neophyte" type profile. 

I assume in your first sentence that you mean neophytes don't appear (participate) in any Brotherhoods other than the 8th Brotherhood. You're right that the neophytes don't participate in combat operations as scouts or in any other capacity. Grey Knights operations are just too different from those of other Space Marine chapters and fraught with risks of exposure to the entities of the warp that are too dangerous for untrained neophytes to be exposed.

 

Neophytes are part of the 8th Brotherhood in the same way that Apothecaries are part of the 5th Brotherhood or Librarians are part of the 3rd Brotherhood. One of the duties of the 8th Brotherhood is to train neophytes just as one of the duties of the 5th Brotherhood is to train Apothecaries and maintain and support the Apothecarium.

Edited December 20, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead