Space Marine homeworld defenses

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I'm sure a fortress monestary is rarely left completely empty of space marines, but aside from varying numbers of batte brothers what are the typical numbers of chapter armsmen I believe they're called that will be stationed at a fortress monastery and possibly elsewhere on the planet?

[CCE1981]

I don’t think we’re ever given a number. A few hundred thousand I would think.

[Lysimachus]

Chapter Homeworlds are going to be among the best defended worlds in the Imperium. Beyond the Fortress Monastery itself, I'd assume you'd need multiple weapons installations across the planet and in orbit too in order to create a proper network. I'd also imagine you might have other weapons platforms throughout the solar system, on other planets/moons/asteroids/whatever. Think like the defences of the Terran system (but on a much smaller scale obviously).

 

All that said, that doesn't necessarily mean lots of Armsmen. Space Marine vessels are much more automated than similar class Imperial Navy ships, needing far fewer crew. If you assume the static defences of their Homeworld are of the same technological level, then maybe they are equally automated.

 

I'd still say well into the tens of thousands for Chapter support staff, maybe not quite hundreds of thousands imho, but probably not far off.

 

Of course, this will vary vastly from Chapter to Chapter as well.

[WARMASTER_]

The list is probably at arms length but I’ll try to remember most things I read

 

A vast array of wall defences, Missile Silos, Lasers battery’s Macro canons, Heavy bolter turrets, the list goes on. It’s worth noting Space marine don’t have massive amounts of chapter serfs, numbers are pretty lean as they’re specialised so most guns, like ship systems will be servitor controlled

 

Void shields (probably the most important asset to the defence)

 

Orbital Defences (also worth nothing that in space there’s generally going to be part of the Astartes fleet in orbit)

 

Chapter ancients can be awoken, so however many Dreadnoughts are in the fortress

 

Some chapters also mine their orbit if they’re desperate (Emperors Spears)

Edited December 18, 2020 by BladeOfVengeance

[Rik Lightstar]

For some established Chapters they don't just have a Chapter Homeworld, the entire System is theirs. The Blood Angels and the Baal System for example and the Fenris System for the Wolves. In these examples they likely have orbital "dry-docks" for their fleets, full scale orbital defences for not just the primary world but any additional worlds that have valuable resources and a local fleet to defend it. 

 

The Ultramarines obviously take this to the extreme with the Ultramar Sector.

 

Even if the Chapter Master in question doesn't act as the local Planetary Governor as far as the administration of the planet or system goes they are the highest Imperial authority both in rank and in ability to enforce their will. As such they have the full ability to take command of any local PDF and fleet assets.

 

Rik

[Mandragola]

This always gets a bit odd. A thousand marines is very few and they’d be spread extremely thinly across a single planet, let alone a system. And most of them aren’t there most of the time.

 

I think Matine worlds are exempt from the IG tithe. So they’d have a decent sized pdf force, backed up by probably much better than average supply. Not to say they’d have marine gear of course, but the system is going to have a good relationship with a forge world, to supply the marines.

 

Of course this will vary enormously. You’ll have chapters based in hive worlds with a population in the billions and others on death worlds like Catachan, with very little infrastructure. So a defence network will be very different, depending on where it is.

[Karhedron]

The Rynn's world stuff gives a very good description of the defenses of the Crimson Fists homeworld. This is particularly detailed since we get to see how it falls during the Ork invasion. It is never explicitly stated but I always imagined Rynn's world as a "typical" Chapter planet (as much as there is ever such a thing). Neither part of a vast sub-empire like Macragge nor a former legion base like Fenris.

[Beta galactosidase]

Rynn’s World is a really good example because first, they recruit from a nearby planet called Blackwater instead of Rynn’s World, and second Rynn’s World is run by a local hereditary governor whom the chapter don’t control.

 

That means the world is also defended by a normal PDF, not by chapter serfs. During a battle the chapter might take command but they don’t choose the officers, don’t determine the order of battle or the equipment or the uniform colors or anything.

 

 

It’s true, a chapter is only ten companies of marines, there’s no reason for them to have to maintain the millions of human troops necessary to defend a planet.

[sitnam]

The White Consuls had planetary PDF to assist in the defence of their old home planet. I dont think Sabatine has any stated population statistics, but iirc Lords of Silence made it seem like they had several different population centers, so I assume the could maintain a decent PDF.

 

I think the best answer when it comes to a generalized question about Astartes is: it depends.

[Rik Lightstar]

The Astral Claws were given full Imperial Authority over the Maelstrom for quite some time, with the Chapter Master deciding everything about the local PDF units as well.

 

Obviously that turned out badly in the end.

 

There's a thousand(ish) Chapters and probably very nearly as many different permutations.

 

There are also Fleet based Chapters to consider.

 

So if it's not a documented Chapter the answer can be anything from one extreme to the other.

 

Rik

[Indefragable]

The Talos/Night Lords series by ADB covers a Chaos assault on an Astartes home world. Suffice to say it was a full blown campaign requiring an extended alliance between quite a few Chaos Space Marine warbands and fleets and being led by a “known asset” commander. And that was to take on a world that they knew had minimal actual Space Marines there at the time.

 

************

 

I would say 250,000 non-combat serfs in a Chapter.

 

The rule of “tooth to tails” with militaries in post-industrial age is (very) roughly 5:1. For every one combat soldier (infantryman, tank crew, pilot, etc...) there are five rear echelons providing the beans and bullets and uncountable other sundries and logistics needed to get that pair of boots to the ground they are meant to muck through.

 

I read somewhere that in WWII, the ratio was actual closer to 13:1. That was the biggest, most geographically expansive conflict in human history (the war in the Pacific is actually the best real world comparison in terms of the enormous distances to cross and logistics chains necessary to enable said crossings). Since this is 40K and everything is dialed up to 11, and we’re talking galaxy-spanning movements and logistics, I would double that 13:1 ratio, but then round down slightly for the sake of easier math...leaving us with 25:1.

 

So if there’s 1,000 Space Marines in a Chapter, then I would guess there’s approximately 250,000 non-combat support staff that keep them running.

 

...of course Astartes homeworlds and/Chapters often have non-Astartes combat forces as well for security detail or augmentation. So of course that adds a whole other tooth-to-tail factor as well.

 

Note:

Generally speaking, the more Elite a military unit is the more resources it sucks up. Hence it would not be misguided to peg Space Marines at the highest end of support:combat ratios. Likewise, increasing the quality of combat serfs would draw proportionately more from a support base as well.

Edited December 19, 2020 by Indefragable

[Lucerne]

And on the flipside, treachery makes the fall of Carcharias, homeworld of the Crimson Consuls, to a single CSM warband of Black Legion and manchurian agents making up a single reserve company of Astartes and the scouts straightforward in Long Games at Carcharias.

 

Notably it's made a lot easier by the Chapter being a fraction of its normal strength, the first company being wiped out in a trap, the turncoats having thunderhawks in the air, and the defense laser being coopted.

Edited December 19, 2020 by Lucerne

[Disruptor_fe404]

I read somewhere that in WWII, the ratio was actual closer to 13:1. That was the biggest, most geographically expansive conflict in human history (the war in the Pacific is actually the best real world comparison in terms of the enormous distances to cross and logistics chains necessary to enable said crossings). Since this is 40K and everything is dialed up to 11, and we’re talking galaxy-spanning movements and logistics, I would double that 13:1 ratio, but then round down slightly for the sake of easier math...leaving us with 25:1.

 

So if there’s 1,000 Space Marines in a Chapter, then I would guess there’s approximately 250,000 non-combat support staff that keep them running.

 

...of course Astartes homeworlds and/Chapters often have non-Astartes combat forces as well for security detail or augmentation. So of course that adds a whole other tooth-to-tail factor as well.

 

Note:

Generally speaking, the more Elite a military unit is the more resources it sucks up. Hence it would not be misguided to peg Space Marines at the highest end of support:combat ratios. Likewise, increasing the quality of combat serfs would draw proportionately more from a support base as well.

 

You math works out to 25,000. Unless you're proposing that the extras would push the ratio to 250:1? Which seems... intense. I always assumed 20:1 myself, but I never count servitors because they aren't people.

[CCE1981]

You’re forgetting that warship crew are combatants.

[WARMASTER_]

There’s only a few hundred Thralls on a ship the rest are Servitors, you’re right though they’re all better trainer than most of the Gaurd

[CCE1981]

Depending on the book there could be 10s of thousands on a ship. Plus Battlebarges aregoing to have far more than a frigate.

[WARMASTER_]

Battle fleet gothic states space marine ships have a very small crew of hundreds of serf and mostly servitors manning guns and systems etc

 

Most black library books say thousands in the heresy but they were legions then, and if there’s is thousands they’ll likely be mostly lower deck “vat grown” or slave cast crew for guns etc

 

Chapters have specifically trained Highly skilled thralls but they’re never great in number

[Mandragola]

I think that supplying a chapter with equipment would require a very long supply chain and loads of people. However, a lot of that would be admech assets, not directly associated with the chapter. A place like Fenris will have some manufacturing capacity in the Fang (possibly a bad example - it might have quite a lot as an ex Legion base) but mostly stuff will turn up in crates from some Forge World. And of course the actual resources have to be mined from somewhere - presumably not by space marines.

 

So basically, while any chapter will have a massive support network, it might not always be under their direct command, or present on their homeworld. Probably only a small minority of chapters can make their own ships, for example, and then their capabilities will vary for anything smaller than that. And with Primaris stuff it's not clear if the torchbearer fleets gave chapters the means to produce the new stuff, or just gave them a load of crates full of it and moved on.

[Indefragable]

 

 

I read somewhere that in WWII, the ratio was actual closer to 13:1. That was the biggest, most geographically expansive conflict in human history (the war in the Pacific is actually the best real world comparison in terms of the enormous distances to cross and logistics chains necessary to enable said crossings). Since this is 40K and everything is dialed up to 11, and we’re talking galaxy-spanning movements and logistics, I would double that 13:1 ratio, but then round down slightly for the sake of easier math...leaving us with 25:1.

 

So if there’s 1,000 Space Marines in a Chapter, then I would guess there’s approximately 250,000 non-combat support staff that keep them running.

 

...of course Astartes homeworlds and/Chapters often have non-Astartes combat forces as well for security detail or augmentation. So of course that adds a whole other tooth-to-tail factor as well.

 

Note:

Generally speaking, the more Elite a military unit is the more resources it sucks up. Hence it would not be misguided to peg Space Marines at the highest end of support:combat ratios. Likewise, increasing the quality of combat serfs would draw proportionately more from a support base as well.

You math works out to 25,000. Unless you're proposing that the extras would push the ratio to 250:1? Which seems... intense. I always assumed 20:1 myself, but I never count servitors because they aren't people.

I actually messed up the math, putting an extra 0 in there (better here than when writing a check...) ...but your correction actually makes more sense. 25,000:1,000 would make sense in a combat theater, but 250,000 to support an entire chapter makes more sense. We’re talking a fortress, all the fleet assets, the fleet berthing and repair and rearming facilities, all the food and agricultural production, the medical aspects including supplies, munitions manufacturing, moving all of the above around, janitorial services, etc...etc... and that’s before you even look at the recruiting and training and biomechanics transformation processes. 250,000 actually seems light when you think about it.

[Helias_Tancred]

We've never been given a real marine-wide answer on this. I would guess that it would depend on multiple factors. For example the Blood Angels don't seem like they'd have many if any chapter Blood Thralls stationed about in the inhospitable planets of Baal, Baal Primus, and Baal Secondus? The Ultramarines would be a chapter that would, IMO, make ample use of armed chapter serfs organized into military units stationed throughout the 500 worlds assisting the PDFs. IIRC the Crimson Fists seemed to have a thousand or so in and around their fortress monastery (before it blew up)?

 

Depends on the climate of the worlds, IF there are human inhabitants of the world, and the chapter's relationship with them, technology levels of the inhabitants, and the nature of their fortress monastery.

[WARMASTER_]

Just as a note, Space marine chapters are not aloud to muster or command local PDF forces or have massive amounts of chapter thrall’s for defence

 

In the Badab war one of Hurons biggest crimes was having his own human auxiliary “the tyrants legion” as since the heresy astartes can’t has standing base line forces anymore

 

So no astartes chapter would have a PDF or a vast amount of Thralls solely for defence, the amount of thralls they have is purely to keep them ready for war, and while trained better than most AM forces that’s never their primary role, Servitors and vat grown slaves make up most of the crew in astartes fleets with a small amount (a few hundred) of thralls per vessel this will most likely represent the fortress monastery too, mostly servitors (manning guns, cleaning etc) and a small cadre of thralls, nothing more. Primary defence will always fall to the astartes

 

Edit

 

That was to say before the rift opened now it’s more a grey area

Edited January 16, 2021 by BladeOfVengeance

[Brother Tyler]

Just as a note, Space marine chapters are not aloud to muster or command local PDF forces or have massive amounts of chapter thrall’s for defence

 

In the Badab war one of Hurons biggest crimes was having his own human auxiliary “the tyrants legion” as since the heresy astartes can’t has standing base line forces anymore

 

So no astartes chapter would have a PDF or a vast amount of Thralls solely for defence, the amount of thralls they have is purely to keep them ready for war, and while trained better than most AM forces that’s never their primary role, Servitors and vat grown slaves make up most of the crew in astartes fleets with a small amount (a few hundred) of thralls per vessel this will most likely represent the fortress monastery too, mostly servitors (manning guns, cleaning etc) and a small cadre of thralls, nothing more. Primary defence will always fall to the astartes

The obvious counter to this is the Ultramar Defence Auxilia.

 

It wasn't the existence of the Tyrant's Legion that contributed to the body of crimes committed by Lufgt Huron and the Astral Claws. It was the integration of that force with the Adeptus Astartes in its operating (i.e., offensive) forces. As the Ultramarines and their Ultramar Auxilia demonstrate, Space Marine Chapters can have sizeable auxilia forces, forces with considerably more manpower and materiel than the Chapter alone. These forces, though, are primarily for the defence of the Chapter's holdings and are not typically integrated with the expeditionary forces that the Chapter deploys throughout the Imperium. The obvious exception to this, of course, is that regiments of the Ultramar Auxilia are dispatched throughout the Imperium in a manner that supports the operations of the Astra Militarum (and generally without being integrated with Ultramarines forces). The Ultramar Auxilia are exceptional in this manner of employment and they may be the lone exception or one of a very few rare exceptions (though we don't have any official evidence of other similar exceptions). It is likely that the auxilia forces employed by other Chapters are typically smaller than those employed by the Ultramarines (who have the vast realm of Ultramar to defend and from which to recruit) and are normally employed only in defence of their Chapter realm.

 

Note that I've focused on the generalities here. If anyone wants to pursue discussion of the Tyrant's Legion or the causes of the Badab War, we should probably start a separate topic in the Index Astartes forum; and if anyone wants to explore the Ultramar Defence Auxilia in more depth, we should probably start a separate topic in either the Ultramarines or Astra Militarum forums (I prefer the Ultramarines because of the association with the Chapter, by the Astra Militarum forum is also suitable because of the composition of the UDA).

[WARMASTER_]

The obvious counter to this is the Ultramar Defence Auxilia.

 

It wasn't the existence of the Tyrant's Legion that contributed to the body of crimes committed by Lufgt Huron and the Astral Claws. It was the integration of that force with the Adeptus Astartes in its operating (i.e., offensive) forces. As the Ultramarines and their Ultramar Auxilia demonstrate, Space Marine Chapters can have sizeable auxilia forces, forces with considerably more manpower and materiel than the Chapter alone. These forces, though, are primarily for the defence of the Chapter's holdings and are not typically integrated with the expeditionary forces that the Chapter deploys throughout the Imperium. The obvious exception to this, of course, is that regiments of the Ultramar Auxilia are dispatched throughout the Imperium in a manner that supports the operations of the Astra Militarum (and generally without being integrated with Ultramarines forces). The Ultramar Auxilia are exceptional in this manner of employment and they may be the lone exception or one of a very few rare exceptions (though we don't have any official evidence of other similar exceptions). It is likely that the auxilia forces employed by other Chapters are typically smaller than those employed by the Ultramarines (who have the vast realm of Ultramar to defend and from which to recruit) and are normally employed only in defence of their Chapter realm.

 

I guess it’s comes down to the grey area of who’s in command and at what level?? where as I’m sure the Ultramar Auxilia has its own leaders it’s still ultimately under the command of the Ultramarines as it’s inside Ultramar, Tyrants Legion however was a directly lead by the Astral Claws as a standing army to do his will. It’s a interesting but very vague difference, but hey... as is everything in 40K

 

As I briefly said before too with the rift opening GW seems to be insinuating that the rules have relaxed a lot as whole sub sectors are giving direct command over to Astartes chapters for protection. Guess you can’t be too strict if the empire is falling apart

Edited January 16, 2021 by BladeOfVengeance

[Gamiel]

There is also that some fortress-monasteries seems to be hidden and use camouflage as their first defence. 

 

And I just realised that I can't remember where I got that from so it could not actually be canon but something I read somewhere else.

 

 

Just as a note, Space marine chapters are not aloud to muster or command local PDF forces or have massive amounts of chapter thrall’s for defence
 

"What, me commanding the PDF:s? Of course not master Inquisitor, we would never do something heretical like that. Your agents most have mistaken my role as a tactical advisor for something else."

- Brother Torulf of the Sons of Thor Chapter

 

 

Battle fleet gothic states space marine ships have a very small crew of hundreds of serf and mostly servitors manning guns and systems etc
 

But based on the Space Sharks books and (I think, I could be misremembering here) the Ragnar Blackmane books is that not universal for all Chapter

Edited January 20, 2021 by Gamiel

[WARMASTER_]

@Gamiel You’re remembering it right to with some, Chapters like the Raptors purposely obfuscate where they’re based

 

Ha yeh it’s all a bit of a grey area I guess, and now the empire is on fire I doubt anyone really cares who’s telling them where to fight and die as long as they are

 

Sorry as regarding crews I should explain myself better, from what I’ve read, all astartes ships will have thousands of crew, but most will be vat grown slaves that man the lower decks and then the “ Skilled crew” will be very lean, servitors and a few hundred serfs for the key task etc. Although I’m sure there’s outliers or down right contradictions in the lore there always is, so as always nothing is gospel