Reading the first two HH again?

[DarkChaplain]

@DC think you are replying to @Torvald but my comments were purely structural rather than addressing my personal opinion on quality of books. Personally I thought FG and GiF were a progressive step down from HR but did enjoy FotE.

 

I would certainly agree that some of the BEST single HH books came around that mid-section with my personal fav being KNF.

 

Yeah, it was just in reply to the "when the series became so bad in comparison" and golden age statements.

 

Honestly, I'd agree that the sense of wonder for the different setting was much greater in those early days, before it turned properly into a setting - but narratively, I prefer a lot of the later works. I think a bunch of those stand on their own merits rather than the awe of being exposed to Primarchs and so many new concepts, like the Imperial Truth as it contrasts to the 40k era's ecclesiarchy, God-Emperor and what not.

 

The biggest downturn in the series, to me, is still The Unremembered Empire, which released around the same time as Scars, a vastly superior novel, was serialized. A hot mess of a nexus novel, wasting a lot of the plotlines it was trying to tie together, and then the follow-up in that narrative arc got put off for years due to the dark days of GW taking charge over BL throwing everything into confusion.

 

I'll say this much: Imperium Secundus as a narrative arc wasn't a bad idea. Giving Primarchs and Legions that didn't have main event participation at the time something to do was a good thing in principle. The problem came from the bad execution, both via TUE being pretty bad (some great scenes, but overall just not good) and the way it was left hanging, resulting in massive negative sentiments about the arc, and by the time BL had full control again, they opted to wrap things up and set sail towards Terra - which is something very obvious when you look at Path of Heaven, Angels of Caliban and various anthologies at the time.

 

Had they actually followed up TUE with more than short stories and audio shorts, before briefly dipping into it in Deathfire, then doing Pharos and quitting the arc in Angels of Caliban, which was a 50/50 split story with the Caliban narrative, we could've had something very cool in Imperium Secundus. Instead, we got a jumbled beginning, stories that made it appear neglected even beyond the publishing schedule, and a downfall narrative without having really seen the high points of Imperium Secundus. For something that lasted a few years and did a lot to rebuild the XIIIth, and involved three loyalist Legions and their Primarchs, it didn't have much to say for itself unless things went belly-up.

 

I'd really have liked seeing Guilliman's contingency-Imperium explored more. The way he prepared for the Traitors to come to Ultramar, the rebuilding efforts and possible infiltrations by the traitor splinter fleets, the politics etc. Instead, it seems like the cool parts were relegated to short stories.

[Indefragable]

I think Imperium Secondus is just stupid (person opinion, YMMV). 

 

 

....but that being said, I'd like to see FW's Black Books take a look on it. That more military history take could really salvage it and make it interesting, IMHO. 

[TorvaldTheMild]

Totally agree, Imperium Secondus was just so unbelievable.  I don't like Guilliman, but to think he'd; have thought of, or implemented, such a ridiculous form of government or substitution was insane and like him or not Guilliman was one of the most intelligent Primarchs of the lot. 

[DarkChaplain]

Out of interest, what exactly was so unbelievable about Guilliman fortifying his own Imperium?

 

Keep in mind that he had already a core empire by the time the Emperor picked him up, and he expanded Ultramar greatly throughout the Great Crusade, both through conquest and diplomacy, instituting systems of government that mostly worked as intended.

 

Guilliman saw the Imperium torn apart and falling into anarchy, so he reacted by trying to reunite the loyalists, while trying to avoid being seen as an usurper himself, thus wanting another of his brothers on the new throne. I'm not sure what's insane about it.

[TorvaldTheMild]

Because they wouldn't have been able to keep it secret in the first place, which would lead to the population thinking Sanguinius and the Triumvirate usurped the throne.  Yes the galaxy was split in two, but the other half didn't die, Guilliman decided to make a conspiracy of a new Imperium, but that would only last as long as the ruinstorm did, what do you think would happen when (say the emperor was killed and the throne taken) when the ruinstorm ended you'd still have half the galactic population knowing that the emperor died and Sanguinius was a pretender to the throne backed by the triumvirate, then the populus would believe they usurped the throne killed the emperor and tried to take the galaxy for themselves.  I mean its hilarious to suggest that plan could have ever haved worked lol.  Guillimans gambit was completely contingent on the ruinstorm.  All three Primarchs knew the ruinstorm was manufactured.  Its just a badly written book, it doesn't make Guilliman any less of a genius as we all know he is that, but that's why that novel was so badly written.  

Edited January 6, 2021 by TorvaldTheMild

[DukeLeto69]

@Torvald errr right ok my memory is shaky and despite loving everything else HH/40k written by Abnett I do have a mental block when it comes to The Unremembered Empire, but...

 

Wasn’t the whole premise of Imperium Secundus that Guilliman, Sanguinius and The Lion DID NOT KNOW that the rest of the Imperium had not fallen due to being cut off by the Ruinstorm?

 

As soon as they found out Terra had not fallen and Dad was likely still alive they set sail for the mother world!

 

Imperium Secundus was plan B, the contingency providing a focus for, what they thought, were the only surviving loyalists.

 

Personally I like this explanation for the late arrival at Siege of Terra (much better than original non explanation in old lore).

 

My only gripe is one with the HH era in general - my head cannon prefers the idea that astropathic communication did not and could not exist until God Emperor was on Golden Throne powering the Astronomicon. Prior to that they relied on space ship borne couriers - meaning the Ruinstorm really did cut them off and everyone was in the dark about what was happening and where Horus’ forces were etc (including those pesky Knights Errant whizzing around like it was bloomin Star Wars)

Edited January 6, 2021 by DukeLeto69

[TorvaldTheMild]

@Torvald errr right ok my memory is shaky and despite loving everything else HH/40k written by Abnett I do have a mental block when it comes to The Unremembered Empire, but...

 

Wasn’t the whole premise of Imperium Secundus that Guilliman, Sanguinius and The Lion DID NOT KNOW that the rest of the Imperium had not fallen due to being cut off by the Ruinstorm?

 

As soon as they found out Terra had not fallen and Dad was likely still alive they set sail for the mother world!

 

Imperium Secundus was plan B, the contingency providing a focus for, what they thought, were the only surviving loyalists.

 

Personally I like this explanation for the late arrival at Siege of Terra (much better than original non explanation in old lore).

 

My only gripe is one with the HH era in general - my head cannon prefers the idea that astropathic communication did not and could not exist until God Emperor was on Golden Throne powering the Astronomicon. Prior to that they relied on space ship borne couriers - meaning the Ruinstorm really did cut them off and everyone was in the dark about what was happening and where Horus’ forces were etc (including those pesky Knights Errant whizzing around like it was bloomin Star Wars)

Yes they didn't know whether terra and the emperor had fallen but that is irrelevant.  You need to re-read my comment.  

Edited January 6, 2021 by Brother Lunkhead

[DarkChaplain]

They only decided to keep Imperium Secundus secret when it turned out that it was a folly, that Terra had not fallen as they believed, and the Emperor was still alive. Up until that point, Imperium Secundus WAS openly declared to all who could hear it, because it was a measure of picking up the pieces.

 

Guilliman and co believed that Terra was lost, Horus had won, and that he'd come for them next, so they'd better prepare a united front against him. YEARS of no communication or access to the rest of the galaxy went by before Sanguinius even arrived on Macragge. Years in which Horus could have realistically succeeded, if he had gone straight for Terra like originally expected, instead of taking detours and being hamstrung by Meduson, Corax and co. And those were survivors that only barely existed.

 

Imperium Secundus wasn't usurping anything, because the very thing they would have been usurping didn't even exist anymore, by their reckoning.

[Brother Lunkhead]

In spite of my love for all things Ultramarines (They're BLUE ya'know), ever since I first heard those two words, "Imperium Secundus" uttered in the audio drama, Censure, I've thought it was a very bad idea, and how could Guilliman conceive of such dangerous nonsense and how could Sanguinius and The Lion even consider going along with it? To me, just declaring Imperium Secundus, much less implementing it would cause far more social and political problems (not to mention the damage to Guilliman's, Sanguinius' and El'Jonson's reputation and the reputations of their legions) then and through the centuries, and as TorvaldTheMild points out, you just can't keep something like this a secret

 

Now, having said all that, I think Dark Chaplain makes a very valid point. What is so unbelievable about Guilliman fortifying his own Imperium...... nothing. However, this could be done without declaring a new Imperium and crowning a new emperor. 'Fortress Ultramar' as a rally point for loyalist forces to meet, refit, plan and launch a counter attack against Horus' traitors would have been a simpler solution, without all of the social and political upheaval and long term ramifications that Imperium Secundus would realistically cause. Creating a unified military command with Sanguinius as supreme commander and Guillman still ruling over Ultramar (providing logistical and material support to the loyalist forces) would have been a more logical solution based on the information we have thus far. At the point where Imperium Secundus was created there was still no proof positive that the Emperor was dead and Terra was in Horus' hands. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The three Primarchs should have been aware of this and one or more should have snuffed this idea out. For the life of me I can't see why Guilliman himself didn't just shake his head and say, "Nah..... dumb idea"

 

To the best of my knowledge, there are no major stories or plot points that require a second empire.

 

But, maybe there is a valid reason for going the Imperium Secundus route. Maybe this was really better thought out than it looks. However well thought out or not, the Unremembered Empire is with us and at this point can't be uninvented, so I too would like to see the reasons behind this explored. As Indefragable suggests, maybe FW's Black Books would be a good platform for this.

Edited January 6, 2021 by Brother Lunkhead

[SkimaskMohawk]

I'm not the biggest fan of IS because it's more...nothing happening while the war carries on. It's just honestly not that important; the ultramarines are decimated at calth and taken out of the heresy in the original lore. Them rebuilding an empire and having a bunch of shattered legions and the two angels show up and hang out for a few years isn't necessary. As a point of comparison, the wolves got beat up at Prospero, and then alaxes which lets say is comparable to Know no Fear and then get one book to kick them off terra.

 

That being said, I don't really have anything against the concept of IS. They explain it a lot that they think the imperium is gone and they're the only ones left to carry on. They learn they were wrong at the end of Angels and the next book is them trying to get to terra. Pretty clear that torvald has a loose grasp on the material.

[TorvaldTheMild]

Imagine Imperium secundus even worked, it would only work within the ruinstorm.  Imagine it worked, but then the ruinstorm ended.  Before it ended and while the ruinstorm was in place Imperium secundus was acting as it did and how Guilliman wanted it to; however the other half of the galaxy is still acting as usual they know whats happening in that side of the universe, they know if the emperor is alive or not they are in contact with each other through astropathy, so say the Emperor is killed and the throne is taken, everyone in this side of the ruinstorm will know that happened and then when the ruinstorm ends half the galaxy will know the emperor died and they will tell the other half that the emperor died, so then the other half of the galaxy will know that sanguinius isn't actually the emperor and that the triumvirate were lying to them, because sanguinius and the other two Primarchs told them that, but if they find out that the other half of the galaxy know that the emperor actually died on terra they will know that sanguinius, the lion and guilliman were lying.  If they know they were lying a) they can't continue to have sanguinius be the emperor knowing that he's dead and they will think that sanguinius the lion and guilliman were trying to usurp the throne, either way Imperium secundus wouldn't have worked.  

Edited January 6, 2021 by Brother Lunkhead

[DukeLeto69]

Ok so based on that...what? What happens?

 

If Emp dead but Horus etc defeated then the Terran led empire would have been ruled by who? Dorn?

 

Then Guilliman et al are like “so the Emp is dead but wasn’t, he just died a few years later but hey we really didn’t know!”

 

Would Dorn say “ok bruv no probs all good” or would he say “traitorous scum let’s have another civil war!”

 

All opinion and preference but I liked the concept of Imperium Secundus but think the execution was a wasted opportunity. Also could have done without Vulkan also showing up!

[TorvaldTheMild]

What does Dorn have to do with anything?

[Brother Lunkhead]

I'll allow it for now, but please don't go too far into the "what if" aspects of this conversation (what if the Emperor died and Dorn took the throne, for example). That's a new subject thread in the making.

[DukeLeto69]

What does Dorn have to do with anything?

We can start a new thread (or DM) as going off topic but just to answer your question...

 

I said “If Emp dead but Horus etc defeated then the Terran led empire would have been ruled by who? Dorn?”

 

Terra could have been ruled by any of the surviving primarchs when RG & Co turn up admitting about Imperium Secundus. I went with Dorn.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Imagine Imperium secundus even worked, it would only work within the ruinstorm. Imagine it worked, but then the ruinstorm ended. Before it ended and while the ruinstorm was in place Imperium secundus was acting as it did and how Guilliman wanted it to; however the other half of the galaxy is still acting as usual they know whats happening in that side of the universe, they know if the emperor is alive or not they are in contact with each other through astropathy, so say the Emperor is killed and the throne is taken, everyone in this side of the ruinstorm will know that happened and then when the ruinstorm ends half the galaxy will know the emperor died and they will tell the other half that the emperor died, so then the other half of the galaxy will know that sanguinius isn't actually the emperor and that the triumvirate were lying to them, because sanguinius and the other two Primarchs told them that, but if they find out that the other half of the galaxy know that the emperor actually died on terra they will know that sanguinius, the lion and guilliman were lying. If they know they were lying a) they can't continue to have sanguinius be the emperor knowing that he's dead and they will think that sanguinius the lion and guilliman were trying to usurp the throne, either way Imperium secundus wouldn't have worked.

You seem to think that "believing something that is reasonably plausible and can't be disproven" is the same as "lying" .

 

Like this isn't a city where all the communication to other city's go through the government; it's an empire of 500 worlds. If they all try to reach the real imperium but experience some sort of hell-barrier blocking all ships and communications while also being to see it, it's reasonable to think things might be even worse on the other side. There's no ruse; the primarchs learned they were wrong without a big exposé and reintegrated with the imperium.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Believing something is plausible (the Emperor is dead and Terra and the rest of the Imperium is gone) and acting on that in a way that could be construed by many as treasonous is a whole different thing. Without verifiable intelligence, it would have been better (politically, logistically, etc.) and just as effective to form a military structure to organize, plan and execute a counteroffensive.

 

Once the Primarchs realized they were wrong, the political damage would have been done, and Imperium Secundus was not something one could just wish away or explain away.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Maybe. There's a few problems.

 

The first is that guilliman did actually have to deal with the fallout of imperium secundus, but we don't actually know what it is because it requires more introspection in the dawn of fire novels or a post siege wrap up. As of now, there was no backlash for it.

 

The second is that the argument being made is that the political damage is coming from the populace of imperium secundus. The people who the most likely to believe the triumvirate because of the hell barrier blocking all attempts to communicate or cross, shadow crusade and night lords smashing through, and guilliman and sanguinius saying "hey I think it's gone terribly out there; this is our attempt to preserve our culture as the last bastion of the imperium" . The people of the 500 worlds aren't going to revolt when the imperium is shown to have survived and the primarchs they've been following say "hey we were wrong and are still part of the imperium" .

[Brother Lunkhead]

No, the political backlash would come from other Primarchs, the High Lords of Terra, and anyone else with power and influence or an axe to grind, and looking for a reason (real or imagined) to question the loyalty of the three and a desire to take them down a notch. As fictional people mirror real people, many people with power and influence desire to accumulate more, and resent others who have it, simply because they have it. Imperium Secundus is a gift to the enemies of Sanguinius, Guilliman, and El'Jonson. 

 

Even given the immensity of the galaxy and the events of the HH, the idea that you can keep something like this a secret is just crazy and a lazy literary contrivance. Why Imperium Secundus when other equally effective solutions were available that where simpler and less incendiary? For literary impact? Did the HH writers cabal not consider the fallout? Did they consider it and say, "Nah, it'll be fine", or did they actually reason it through? I'd like to think it's the later, but so far, I'm not seeing it.

Edited January 7, 2021 by Brother Lunkhead

[mc warhammer]

horus rising is one of the few BL books i've reread passages from. some really lovely writing in that one. anyone else remember the backlash against the concept of the imperial truth at the time of its release? that seems to be one of the new lore bits that's become widely accepted since.

 

quality of the series was always random for me, even in the first few books (FotE, Fulgrim, GiF, FG were all bad imo) so i've never noticed a dip or uptick in the standard of writing from BL.  some good, some bad, some really good, some really bad.

 

as for imperium secundus, i agree that the idea is plausible and interesting even if the execution just...i mean...i don't think they even executed it?  it just got left out in the cold. i personally see any primarch as a potential galactic emperor...so that's 20 emperors in waiting along with the actual emperor. if chaos wasn't a thing, i could imagine the eventual future of the imperium ending up a little like post- alexander the great: with the primarch generals carving up the galaxy between them.

Edited January 7, 2021 by mc warhammer

[Indefragable]

In the shortest form I can possibly put it, my loathing of Imperium Seconds boils down to thus:

 

It's contrived. 

 

 

It feels like an overly complex, committee-designed reason for why Guilliman wasn't at Terra. 

 

Know No Fear and FW's Book 5: Tempest show to us how utterly devastating Calth was to both the Ultramarines as a Legion, and Ultramar as a sector of space. To simply hang on to life after all that, let alone claw back a victory, let alone beg, borrow, and steal enough ships to cobble a fleet to even attempt to get to Terra at all....is such an incredibly " :cuss YEA!" aspect in and of itself that would only elevate Guilliman to the upper tiers of Imperial leaders. It would be a triumph of such renown that only a fool would reject any codified wisdom that such a leader would attempt to impart to the rest of the Legions. Guilliman, bloodied, cracking, hamstrung, utterly backed into a corner with no hope or no chance for relief, is able to turn things around using his wits, his adaptability, his vision, and his organizational skills; he doesn't have a prayer yet through sheer Caesar or Napoleon or Subotai -like skill is able to win through sheer resourcefulness. That would be such a cool story and so perfectly set up why the Codex Astartes becomes what it is. 

 

Instead we have this weird Shakespearean political drama that essentially suggests that Guilliman's first instinct to the heat going out is to light the house on fire, cut open the family dog to wear its fur, and huddle naked with everyone to keep warm instead of....maybe checking the furnace first? He is so quick to claim an "Imperium Secondus" that it just boggles the mind. The only kick I get out of how it is implemented is the scandalous idea that Guilliman wanted this scenario a bit too much.....but even I must admit that benefits the setting in no way more than the snarky takedown of "poster boy" Girlyman. I have such strong dislike for Guilliman so much in part because I want to like him so much as mentioned in the paragraph above. 

[DarkChaplain]

At this point, Guilliman hasn't even met up with the other Primarchs yet. Neither has the Lion.

The only one at Terra who knows of Imperium Secundus - and the one with the highest distaste for it - is Sanguinius, and he wouldn't broach the subject.

 

Technically, Vulkan is also on Terra, but he was literally insane in TUE, and "died" before IS was formally declared with Sanguinius as new emperor, then shipped out in his box before the thing ended, but never actually experiencing it happening.

 

Whether the whole idea will strike any backlash from Dorn, Russ, Corax, Vulkan or Jaghatai is completely irrelevant to the narrative as it is happening right now, but it HAS been a point of shame for Guilliman ever since. He might tell his brothers, but this won't happen until the Siege is over, if ever - probably by the time the Codex Astartes is being discussed, including the splitting of the Legions. Right now, there's more urgent stuff on the desk.

 

As was already said by others, there's no reason for the 500 worlds to rebel against Guilliman's reasoning. For the rest of the Imperium, IS is a complete unknown, so there is no backlash by the populace, as they won't ever hear of it, and whatever resentment Roboute might earn from his brothers will be limited, as there was no intention by him to split from the Imperium - merely a contingency plan for the worst case scenario, which three Primarchs believed had occured. They didn't secede from the Imperium led by the Emperor, but from a conquered Imperium led by Horus the arch-traitor.

 

And for all intents, Horus WOULD have made for Terra and most likely won, if the news Guilliman had wasn't full of holes. His sources could not account for the many years of additional warfare and twists we the readers are privy to. He didn't know any of what Horus really did, including the ascension on Molech. Or that Fulgrim would backstab Perturabo. There's even a point to be made that Horus dragged out his assault for too long, while enlisting unstable help from the Pantheon, when the original plan didn't include daemons. Had he succeeded at Isstvan V, without Corax slipping away and Shadrak Meduson reforming the Iron Tenth into a proper force harrassing Horus' supply lines, Sanguinius been broken at Signus as intended, and Guilliman devastated further at Calth (which, as it turns out, wasn't as big a blow to him as originally supposed. Later sources disperse the damages onto the Shadow Crusade, too)..... He could've made straight for Terra and fought with minimal opposition.

 

Instead, he delayed, allowed Dorn to organize a proper response, blockade Beta-Garmon and for the remnants of various Legions to resupply, repair, and recruit.

 

Horus' initial plan relied on surprise - which is evident in how he handled Isstvan. Isstvan III only leaked due to the Eisenstein, without Garro and co, the Imperium would not have reacted to it. They reacted by sending the assault force to Isstvan V, where again, Horus surprised them by turning half the Legions in his favor, resulting in utter devastation for the loyalists present. He created the Ruinstorm to block off galactic communication and travel for the loyalists, tied up Blood Angels, Ultramarines, Space Wolves and Dark Angels, but for various reasons then failed to capitalize on his momentum, while even making justifications for it (see: Warmaster by John French).

 

By any reckoning of Guilliman's, Horus should have struck Terra much sooner than he actually did.

[SkimaskMohawk]

@brother lunkhead I don't disagree with the points you make about plausible consequences in future publications.

 

What I'm saying is Torvalds argument of "IS is dumb because the people of the 500 worlds would realize they're getting lied to for a power grab" doesn't hold any weight on a few different levels.

[DukeLeto69]

The hatred for Imperium Secundus is strong in this thread

[DarkChaplain]

IS was also teased in McNeill's Rules of Engagement as far back as Age of Darkness, book 16, many years before the arc even started for real. It was again picked up as an upcoming encounter between Guilliman and the Lion in.... The Lion, from The Primarchs, book 20.

 

Imperium Secundus was definitely in the planning for much longer than is apparent, and it's safe to say both the mismanagement at the time, the running off of authors, and the generally negative reception all played a part in it failing.