Let's Talk Command Squads

[Indefragable]

Spin-off from the "what would you like to see from the next FAQ" thread. Command Squads seem to be a popular choice for things that need some love or need to just be re-worked or tweaked in some way. 

 

Looking to talk Command Squads in 2 different ways:

 

1. How they actually are now (and how to get the most mileage out of them)
2. How they should be

 

1. How they are now

 

I actually have had a ton of fun converting and painting my IX Legion Command Squad. Such a great encapsulation of 30k, ripe for creative liberties and fun builds. That being said, from a crunch perspective, the only serious consideration I have for them is as jump-pack melta-bomb caddies, hopping around attaching MB's to scary vehicles and keeping the people around them Fearless. Otherwise, I see them as much more of a "fun" unit than anything with serious consideration. 

 

 

2. How they should be 

 

Personally, I think one of the following tweaks would make them a bit more universally viable: 

 

A. Let other HQ's besides the Praetor unlock them.

I think this alone would open up opportunities and see more play. Of course a Praetor should still have his own flavor of CS, so perhaps restrict the Standard Bearer to only if a Praetor took them. And/or perhaps a non-Praetor can unlock them, but only if he is the Warlord (to prevent everyone brining 3x HQ's each with their own CS). 

 

B. Special Rule per Legion ala Praevians + Battle Automata

While I am reluctant to throw out Special Rules like candy, especially to a somewhat generic unit, I think having a CS be able to take a single additional SR could make them interesting as well. My mental model is somewhere in between Veteran Tactic and the effect a Praevian has on his Battle Automata, giving a a bit of a flavorful boost without going overboard.

 

C. Have the whole unit be 2W.

Both the simplest and most drastic change, but one that could on its own catapult the unit to its own unique place. My idea here is that outside of select special units (Justarean, Firedrakes, etc...) there are not many Astartes units with more than 1 wound. Giving each member of a CS 2W would really make them stand out and make them a viable and competitive choice. What's more, being T4  2+/6++ (combat shield et al) means they are still not outrageous. Terminator Command Squads suddenly become a choice that you throw your Praetor into TDA simply to unlock. 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Indefragable

[Bung]

At least give them access to combi weapons.

[Gorgoff]

A: A scrappy unit stays a scrappy unit even if you can take them as bodyguards for other characters.

B: That's the way. Let them automatically succeeded Look out sir roles and give 'em additional gimmicks. Do you guys remember the 7 edition codec Imperial Guard? Their bodyguards have the option to be starfleet commanders, artillery experts and stuff like that. Weaker forms of that could make them worth taking.

C: No, no, no. Giving 2w out like candy is never the right option.

There are way to many units with more then one wound already and besides being boring as hell it's just lazy rulewriting to be honest.

They need to be unique enough to take them and not because they have tons of wounds.

Make em interesting, make em exciting.

[Lautrec the Embraced]

I really like using command squads in terminator armour as they seem a straight and sensible upgrade from regular ones, I've been treating them as a solid Atramentar stand in. But I struggle to employ artificer armour ones.

 

I generally oppose introducing 2w units, I believe it should be reserved for true beasts like Gal Vorbak though I find it adequate that some elite units have a 2w sarge (or SB in this case).

 

Some mechanics concerning praetors and command squad sounds cool. It makes sense that other officers could also take their own bunch of high ranking warriors or advisors but on the other hand you can do it as well with regular veterans. 

 

I have an idea that might be outrageous but nevertheless it came to my mind. This squad is supposed to be a small one which is a big no-no in HH -  sure, allowing us to take up to 10 guys would help but is this really fluffy? And I can't really imagine my praetor strolling through the field with max just 5 guys, it's almost as if you want 300+ points eradicated by a Medusa. So, unit should be small but how to make it viable...

 

...let praetor and up to a few guys join other units.

 

No longer you have to worry about unit being too small. No longer is your warlord in mortal danger due to lack of bodyguards. It would emphasize that command squad should roll along praetor, only then would you get to join another unit after all. Fluff wise it makes sense to me as these guys are legion's heroes, probably well known by whole chapters for their merits - they will be accompanying their boss no matter what job is he up to, whether it is spearheading the assault along with finest veterans or babysitting some huge tactical blob.

 

Of course some retrictions could apply concerning potential joint unit or number of bodyguards, maybe this should be restricted to just troop choices...

Edited December 18, 2020 by Lautrec the Embraced

[SkimaskMohawk]

I think the first thing is that primarchs should unlock the movement option of the command squad. Curze, corax and sanguinius should be able to get jump pack commands; jaghatai should be able to get a jet bike command. This has always been a problem since book 2 when Curze's rules were introduced and has never been fixed.

 

2 wounds would probably be the next easiest thing to really set them apart, especially with minimum units of 3.

 

Another issue is that the point balance is off in terms of upgrades. Both bikes and terminator armour have a 2+ as part of their benefit but there's no discount for already having the save.

 

Honestly at the end of the day they're a 0-1 unit that requires a praetor+ character to take and caps at 5 guys. They can be strong.

[Lautrec the Embraced]

Terminator Command Squad has hardly problem with pricing IMO, they are what, 5 pts more expensive for 5 men while gaining Fearless banner, WS5 and second wound on SB

[SkimaskMohawk]

Terminator Command Squad has hardly problem with pricing IMO, they are what, 5 pts more expensive for 5 men while gaining Fearless banner, WS5 and second wound on SB

You're right in that they actually are discounted by their armour and are a good deal compared to normal termies.

 

The jetbikes are the rip I was thinking of

[Noserenda]

Like i said in the other thread i think they just need to catch up a bit on Codex creep, the obvious thing is broadening their options to at least all the regular gear like combi weapons and dedicated transports but id also look at letting them take legion specific gear as if they were characters to give them some more toys. It might end up a bit savage but if those items are properly costed it should work out! :) 

Id also probably bump them to 2 wounds, but then i think all the Terminators should be 2 wounds :D 

Ultimately though these guys should be mini characters like their 40k counterparts, Chapter Honour guards, even if 30k doesnt go in for a similar amount of bling for every legion ;) They are some of the top fighters in a given legion, (at least the ones without command aptitude) so its not unreasonable for them to be tough and have toys. 

[Gorgoff]

Like i said in the other thread i think they just need to catch up a bit on Codex creep, the obvious thing is broadening their options to at least all the regular gear like combi weapons and dedicated transports but id also look at letting them take legion specific gear as if they were characters to give them some more toys. It might end up a bit savage but if those items are properly costed it should work out! :)

 

Id also probably bump them to 2 wounds, but then i think all the Terminators should be 2 wounds :D

 

Why?

They are veterans in bigger armour which is represented with their better armour save and invulnerable save already so there is no :cussing reason to give every damn terminator unit two wounds each.

Firedrakes are offsprings of a perpetual and Deathshroud are the poster boys of a legion who claims to be the toughest of them all when it comes to take a beating.

It makes sense to give them more wounds.

But on regular terminator?

No :cussing way. That's just gamy and not immersive whatsoever. You could argue that they may get the same trait options like veterans do because that's what they are but that's it.

 

Same with command squads. Centurions are the next step for the members of a command squad and they have two wound. So that would make any sense fluff wise either.

Make them stand out with other things instead. Don't bore me with more wounds. Make them support the HQ they carry in a unique and fascinating way. Maybe they buff his warlord trait.

Like... if it is an area effect make it bigger through them or give them the option to deep strike or give any friendly unit in 6" around one of them +1 to combat resolution because they are so damn inspiring or something like that.

Give them a wow effect an unique trait which sets them apart.

[Bung]

Maybe give them some more interesting options.

Let them have Command Rhinos as a transport option.

Or maybe a Land Raider Achilles Alpha :P

 

But you could make options to upgrade the banner.

Like giving the whole army a turn of Fearless or Fleet. Like the old Whaag rules. Or give them a aura with another effect than fearless.

[Mogsam]

Give them the option to take up to 10 and a dedicated transport and they're fine.

 

If you're worried about Terminators being too economical, make the points for more models wearing Terminators high.

[Pearson73]

Following on slightly from @Lautrec the Embraced with the idea of letting them merge with squads, perhaps the command squad could become an upgrade to an existing unit, as opposed to a stand-alone option? Thinking about the Black Library novels, it seems most officers just roll with a relatively normal squad, operating at standard sizes. It would seem a shame to remove such a cool unit, but perhaps this is a route worth exploring? The upgrade could grant some initial base rules, e.g. an improved 'look out sir' mechanic, fearless, etc as well as also opening up further upgrades, for example boosting a regular nuncio vox into something closer to the Master of Signals, or improving the squad vexilla to something with an aura.

[Noserenda]

 

Like i said in the other thread i think they just need to catch up a bit on Codex creep, the obvious thing is broadening their options to at least all the regular gear like combi weapons and dedicated transports but id also look at letting them take legion specific gear as if they were characters to give them some more toys. It might end up a bit savage but if those items are properly costed it should work out!

 

Id also probably bump them to 2 wounds, but then i think all the Terminators should be 2 wounds

Why?

They are veterans in bigger armour which is represented with their better armour save and invulnerable save already so there is no :cussing reason to give every damn terminator unit two wounds each.

Firedrakes are offsprings of a perpetual and Deathshroud are the poster boys of a legion who claims to be the toughest of them all when it comes to take a beating.

It makes sense to give them more wounds.

But on regular terminator?

No :cussing way. That's just gamy and not immersive whatsoever. You could argue that they may get the same trait options like veterans do because that's what they are but that's it.

 

Same with command squads. Centurions are the next step for the members of a command squad and they have two wound. So that would make any sense fluff wise either.

Make them stand out with other things instead. Don't bore me with more wounds. Make them support the HQ they carry in a unique and fascinating way. Maybe they buff his warlord trait.

Like... if it is an area effect make it bigger through them or give them the option to deep strike or give any friendly unit in 6" around one of them +1 to combat resolution because they are so damn inspiring or something like that.

Give them a wow effect an unique trait which sets them apart.

 

Why not? Do you honestly think Terminators are as tough as they should be? Because in the fluff they wander around basically invulnerable but on the tabletop they get removed in droves, its pretty rare for a terminator unit to survive if an opponent puts some focus on deleting it and that feels off to me. Invulnerable saves are tbh the real gamey mechanic on toughness, it feels like flipping a coin to see if the model survives, literal luck rather than actual toughness. Wounds is a much, much more immersive feel to a model getting chipped away under fire. I think that is borne out by the community at large too, 2 wound terminator units are clutch, most 1 wound terminator units are distinctly chancy propositions. 

 

Centurions are not the next step up from command squads either, i mean thats just wrong... There are waaaaaay more centurions and consuls in a legion than command squad members, it would be a horrific choke point in progression, im sure some folks will come that way, usually someone the Praetor wants to mentor directly i expect but command squad members are just as heroic as the average line captain, (They can already do challenges!) they just arent suited to command for whatever reason. They are fighters rather than leaders, which does suit some consuls but they tend to be a bit specialist.

 

Tbh none of those alternative traits are particularly inspiring in army selection, a super elite unit with a fearless aura is already pretty damn useful, having a vox (Though they should have that option :D )  or a tiny combat modifier isnt going to tip anyone over into taking them but a consistent, useful unit with some characterful options probably will.

 

Similarly i dont think merging a whole command squad into another unit is the solution either, and that one really is gamey as all hell :D 

 

[ShadowCore67]

I know command squads aren't great but they are a good choice if you don't want to dish out points for a deathstar.

 

I hate bringing deathstars so my list almost always includes a command squad with my HQ to just run around killing tactical squads or something (Although I'm also DA so my command squads are better than yours :P). In my defense though I did this even before Companions existed.

Edited December 20, 2020 by ShadowCore67

[Spagunk]

I just want master crafting for power Weapons so I can make sanguinary guard proper.

 

Right now my one squad is just fists and plasma. I'm subbing death masks for combat shields.

[Gorgoff]

Why not?

I explained why not.

But since we are in the internet I'll explain again.

Do you honestly think Terminators are as tough as they should be?

Compared to what?

The fluff?

Obviously not. That's why it is called plot armour. It doesn't matter how they are in novels because they are only there in most parts to show something. Most of the time they are described as tough as a tank only to get shredded by some demonor other hard hitter. So that we as an audience think "BAMBOOZLE what a powerful lad!"

You know?

 

Gamewise?

Absolutely, yes.

It takes 90 boltgun shots BS4 to kill 5 dudes with 2+. 180 lasguns fired with BS3.

You want to double that? 360 imperial guardsmen shooting to kill 5? That's gonna be fun for the Milita player. :/

In other words: 3 wounds kill a power armour, 6 wounds a terminator/ tiffy armor.

Twice as hard as an Astartes isn't enough?

Luckily it doesn't stop there.

They tank AP3 as well, which means you need 45 BS4 shots of krak missles to kill 5 of them.

That are enough rockets to kill 5 Dreadnoughts, a Land Raider or even a Spartan (without flaireshields, of course)

If a Leman Russ tank hits a 5 men squad of Astartes eith it's battle cannon they are :cussed.

A 5 men command squad will most likely survive unscathed.

Not tough enough?

Against AP 1,2 they have their invulnerable save.

I takes 12 hits with a Melta to kill 5 chosen in Cataphracti armor for example.

I say that is hard enough for a 30 points model and to be honest MY terminators don't "die in droves". Every time someone looses his terminators rapidly it's because he put them in a situation where they can't survive.

In front of a Predstor Executioner or in front of Myrmidon Destroyers for example. But that's a self inflicted problem.

I mean, sure, giving terminator armor and CS the +1 wound would make them more foolproof but that shouldn't be the point of rules especially when you have rules at hand which already work just fine (speaking of terminators per se and not command squads in particular. I'll come to that later).

Like you said they should have at least a vox unit and as Bung already mentioned they need access to combi-weapons.

In addition to that they should have some kind of gimmick which has nothing to do with close combat. As a player of a shooting army the reason why I don't field them is the simple fact, that I don't need a cc unit. A unit which needs some kind of transporter and don't have any firepower to speak of, by the way.

But if this unit would buff my army in some other unique way I'd think about taking them.

As is I think they are ok-ish for cc legions because cc dudes in tiffy armors are very hard to get rid of, but for my warriors they are just dead meat. I get better stuff for those points.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Ya terminators really don't die in droves and have won me tons of games due to implacable advance, and that was in Iron Warriors where they usually don't get deepstrike to mitigate damage and movement.

 

That being said, the command squad critically lacks implacable, which imo negates the other advantages they have over legion terminators.

[MegaVolt87]

Command squad to me should be a defenskve/reactive unit, so should offer some command support abilities to either the army or be able to effect something close by to them. High risk, high reward type of unit. Being a pure brick + blender unit for a blender HQ is a very boring setup, 2W is an uninspired, but effective upgrade, F grade for creativity though.

[Hungry Nostraman Lizard]

Autopassing Look Out Sirs! would be welcome. 

[Bung]

After going through some old Books, i would like to see Relic Banners, like the DA had in 6th Edition.

 

Give them a 12´´ bubble with some special rules.

Make some generic ones and maybe 1-3 Legion specific ones.

 

That could range from +1 Attack or Stubborn, to alot of other special rules.

 

Would need some playtesting for costs, but would make it more interesting for both players.

[Eternal Despair]

Personally I like what mournival events have done in the experimental errata with the command squad. The main take always from their changes is allowing the squad to increase to a total of 8 members, the adding of implacable advance and fallen honour to the banner bearer and changing the unit from infantry with the chosen Warriors rule to straight up characters, this is all in addition to a lot of the pricier war gear options coming down by 2-5 points which is also quite nice.

 

I love the increase in unit size, one of the biggest detractions for me with the current rules is that command squads lack the bodies to not be overwhelmed easily by large squads of tacticals/assault squads or a 10 man veteran unit. Also one of the themes of the great crusade/heresy is just how much bigger everything is in terms of scale, like how the basic tactical squad often operates in 20 man units and companies could easily swell to 500 legionaries and it was a little weird to me that the command squad at best is 5 lone legionaries.

 

implacable advance and fallen honour just brings the banner bearer model up to standard a legion herald, it boosts the squads utility by allowing them to capture objectives with the obvious risk of giving a VP to the opponent if you lose the banner bearer. Plus I think it’s neat that even though this unit gets a fairly big buff in the ability to score there’s still obvious counter play ie sniper/good positioning that is also further incentivised by dangling a free VP for it as well.

 

now the change to character is one that I know maybe a little contentious due to the shenanigans multi character units can pull off but The reason why I like it so much is that it gives this unit access to all the legion weapons and gear that are restricted to characters. I don’t know about you guys but it always irked me that my basic shmuck of a tactical seargent can grab a Phoenix spear but the far more elite body guard unit of a command squad doesn’t. If the character stuff ends up to shenanigany I’d be fine with an amendment to chosen warrior that allows them to take legion specific war gear locked to characters.

 

Mournival events also splits out the terminator command squad from the artificer squad so just to elaborate more on the things I like unique to each. With the terminator version not much else is changed but 2 things of note, one is that gorgon terminator plate is added as an armour variant which is quite nice, not nessicarily better than any option already available but it’s a nice bit of added flavour and adds some more variety, secondly they add multi meltas, Volkite Culverins and plasma cannons as heavy weapons for 15/20/20 respectively which again adds some variety and customisability which is nice. 

on the artificer side of things the main change in terms of war gear is the addition of replacing your bolt gun with a boarding shield which I mostly like just for now having options to have command squads “match” the company they are apart of ie jump packs for an assault marine  company and boarding shields for a Breacher company. Also of note is a 10 point reduction for the jet bikes due to the unit already having a 2+ save which is nice.

 

a bit rambly and scatter brained but the short of it is bigger units, scoring, and more war gear options are all things I would want to see in future updates and have been done by the blokes down at mournival events.
 

[Indefragable]

Nice post @Eternal Despair.  Combining with what @Spagunk said about Sanguinary Guard....

 

...for me the debate is around Special Units being Special Units in the crunch as opposed to saying "the Fluff is they are Sanguinary Guard, but the Crunch is just a Legion Command Squad." Do we mess around with Command Squads to give them more access to things at the risk of stepping on the toes of other units? Aka allow Terminator Command Squads to be Justarean in all but name. <shrug> But there's already  Special Units in the crunch, so at this point I think the answer is "no." 

 

Which brings me back to the idea of making Command Squads their own thing, a "vanilla" option that can pull its weight and more. I like some of the ideas in this thread, but clearly there is not consensus about what--if any--moves would "fix" them. 

 

Why would a Praetor want to hang out with his 5 hand-picked buddies rather than in a wall of bodies with Breacher Shields or such? Or if on a bike that jinks, why would he want to race around in formation with 5 other bikes rather than in a larger unit of 10+ bikes? Just thinking through it somewhat logically or realistically (I mean, this is 40k so take that with a mountain of salt) there would clearly be an advantage to doing so. And that advantage seems to point to the benefits of "small and elite" or "low profile/smaller footprint" outweighing the benefits of having a brick of bodies/wounds/Look Out Sirs to protect you. So how do we represent those benefits in the crunch....

 

...​while doing so in a single data sheet that accounts for foot, jump, terminator, and bike variants, as well as 18+ Legions , twice that many RoWs, and all the various combinations of them all?

 

To me that's the crux of the problem with the Command Squad as written: there's SO much to account for. So for me, IMHO, I think being able to pick-and-choose from a handful of abilities for them makes the most sense, following off the Veteran Legion Tactical Squad model. After all, it makes the most sense that a Praetor would handpick his personal entourage for certain abilities. 

 

 

• Bouncers: Rampage
• Duellists: +1 to something in challenges (pairs nicely with Chosen Warriors)
• Sprayers: Pinning to all shooting weapons
• Adrenaline Junkies: bonuses to Deep Striking or Outflanking or such
• Secret Service: 6+ FNP or +1 to existing FNP to max of xyz
• (titles are being workshopped ;) ) 

[Scammel]

I like the idea of pick-n-choose special rules, but I'd rather focus on more command-y aspects. To my mind, a Command Squad doesn't so much reflect a hand-picked bodyguard (though given the disposition of certain legions, the entry should certainly be able to facilitate this) so much as an entourage of advisors, adjutants and comms experts. A lot of the potential in this space is admittedly subsumed by Rites of War and especially the myriad Centurion options, but I like the idea of such a squad giving a unit in the army a special rule or bonus at the beginning of every turn, reflecting the orders expertly relayed by the HQ and his diverse (eccentric?) posse - Acute Senses, Furious Charge, Tank Hunters and the like.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I feel like I'm the only one who associates the legion command squad with the 40k honor guard as opposed to the company command squad.

 

The honour guard were body guards and a seperate organization outside of the company structures, while the command squads were bands of hand picked warriors from the company that fit the captains idiosyncrasies and helped with advice.

 

For this reason I'm not the biggest fan of special weapon guys, or bonus adaptable USRs, or whatever. I also think it'd be a terrible idea to give them implacable advance and get scoring for a ton of hqs. Giving it the downside of the Herald doesn't add up to the same result as the Herald give up 2 VP, and takes a second HQ slot while being less survivable due to terminator armour limits and less wounds from the unit.

[MegaVolt87]

40k honour guard are more akin in role to similar period units such as Deathshroud, Justarian, Phoenix Guard etc, except all they lack is a banner option, while also being body guards/ entourage to important commanders. Legion command squad seems to be not smashy enough to some, not enough of a leadership/ tactical utility for others, hence the arguments here on what rules/ role they need to improve on.