Why minimum troop sizes?

[templargdt]

Frater-

 

General question since I barely played 8th and haven't played 9th yet.  Why do all the lists I see pretty much always have troops in squads of 5 for minimum battalion requirements?  To be honest, our basic troops seem pretty great at this point, especially regular Intercessors and Incursors.  Assault Ints aren't shabby either and putting tactical squads at two wounds seems pretty good as well, even if they have 1A.  Especially since the shoot twice strat and fight twice strat are locked to intercessors, they seem like solid choices.  

This brings me to the min squad choices.  Why only 5?  If you take 10, you get so much more bang for your buck out of strats like transhuman or shoot twice.  

 

Thanks, looking forward to opinions.  

[Doghouse]

Lots of tactical reasons.

 

Easier to tie up in combat, blast weapons damage them more, more targets for the enemy, still getting ten wounds for lower points cost, etc.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I can think of a few reasons for min sized squads.

 

1) Blast weapons aren't as effective.

 

2) transhuman is cheaper.

 

3) more units gives you more options for controlling objectives.

 

4) coherency rules get more restrictive the more models you have in a unit.

 

5) there isn't a bonus for deploying first so you get to see where your opponents best units will be.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

More sergeants equals more power weapons.

[WARMASTER_]

I can think of a few reasons for min sized squads.

 

1) Blast weapons aren't as effective.

 

2) transhuman is cheaper.

 

3) more units gives you more options for controlling objectives.

 

4) coherency rules get more restrictive the more models you have in a unit.

 

5) there isn't a bonus for deploying first so you get to see where your opponents best units will be.

All of these ^^^

 

And the fact that two squads of 5 is more durable then a squad of 10

[Noserenda]

Plus you get more sergeants and their delightful toys :) 

[Bat33.1]

9th is a game of holding objectives for victory points so more units gives you more options to grab those points

 

Players often want the juicy stuff in other slots such as fast attack or heavy support which can be points heavy but still need to fill troops slots or hold objectives

 

hiding a 5 man unit with the new terrain rules is easier than hiding 10

 

harder to tie down multiple units in combat now that multi charges are harder to pull off 

 

More sergeants

[Dudley Nightshade]

Doesn't Combat Squad achieve all of that except for the plethora of sergeants, while adding more deployment flexibility?

[The Unseen]

Doesn't Combat Squad achieve all of that except for the plethora of sergeants, while adding more deployment flexibility?

Making your army have fewer drops gets you nothing, and may hurt you if your opponent has a ton of units and can counter deploy with a heavy hitter after youre done deploying.

 

The only time larger squads are worth is if your planning on throwing buffs on them that aren't auras.

Stuff like 10 auto bolter intercessors with a chapter master on t2 is a frankly disgusting amount of -1AP anti infantry firepower from a cheapish troop unit if you spend 2cp for rapid fire for example.

A niche reason might be you want to run the attrition secondary, but its incredibly match up dependant.

 

But the only reason to run more than min sized squads is if you have a specific plan in mind utilizing a limited buff. Otherwise 2 squads of 5 are basically always better than 1 of ten. More specials, more attacks, less vulnerable to morale, can stand on 2 objectives, etc.

Sadly rendering combat squads a near useless rule holdover.

[Dudley Nightshade]

 

Doesn't Combat Squad achieve all of that except for the plethora of sergeants, while adding more deployment flexibility?

Making your army have fewer drops gets you nothing, and may hurt you if your opponent has a ton of units and can counter deploy with a heavy hitter after youre done deploying.

 

The only time larger squads are worth is if your planning on throwing buffs on them that aren't auras.

Stuff like 10 auto bolter intercessors with a chapter master on t2 is a frankly disgusting amount of -1AP anti infantry firepower from a cheapish troop unit if you spend 2cp for rapid fire for example.

A niche reason might be you want to run the attrition secondary, but its incredibly match up dependant.

 

But the only reason to run more than min sized squads is if you have a specific plan in mind utilizing a limited buff. Otherwise 2 squads of 5 are basically always better than 1 of ten. More specials, more attacks, less vulnerable to morale, can stand on 2 objectives, etc.

Sadly rendering combat squads a near useless rule holdover.

 

Ah, that makes sense. Good insight, thanks.

[9x19 Parabellum]

One of the Astartes armies I play is Black Templar.  BT's like to use Chaplains in HQ slots, and there are a couple standout ones from the Chapter Specific littanies.

 

-the one that gives a 5+ FnP is great to throw on a big unit.

-the other really good one is the littany that gives +1A 

 

Now if you consider those, in conjunction with a couple key stratagems like Rapid Fire (as one of the other frater said) and/or Honor the Chapter, you have a couple specific, niche reasons to run a couple big 10 man squads. But generally speaking you really only want to be rolling 5 man units for all the aforementioned reasons. 

Edited December 20, 2020 by 9x19 Parabellum

[Riddlesworth]

What everyone else said is slot on.

 

Unless you're throwing single target buffs (shoot twice, fight twice, chaplain shooting litanies) on a unit that will be key to your strategy, min sized squads is just better

[MegaVolt87]

Looks like min troops and more top heavy to cap off opponents obsec units before they can run up the score is the current trend as far as I can tell. SM aren't hurting for street sweeper units to achieve this strategy.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Let's differentiate two concepts though:

 

There's a difference between bringing minimum troops (in terms of minimum troops per unit) and minimum # of troop units (in order to fill out a battalion or patrol or whatever).

 

While the first is pretty readily applied (MSU), I don't necessarily think the second is as universally true.  Marine troops are actually good units now.  It's quite possible that having 30 (6x5 units) of objective secured troops is a good thing.  The old days of spending as little as possible in the troop category no longer applies.

Edited December 22, 2020 by 9x19 Parabellum

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Yeah there definitely lists that will want to run more than 3 troop choices, and there are lists that will run a large squad or two. It all comes down to the plan and playstyle of the pilot of the list. I think in general though MSU squads are a good starting point until you determine you want a big squad or two.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

With Heavy Intercessors coming obsec will be even more better now.

[MegaVolt87]

Yes, while on the whole SM troops have improved and are arguably better than everyone elses for the moment; it's not exactly suddenly ineffective all of a sudden to go top heavy still. In future CA's there isn't exactly much room for points cuts on SM troops in comparison to other slots. I'm not seeing a return to 11-12 point tac marines for example in 9th.

[jeremy1391]

I personally run all my intercessors as ten man squads and depending on my opponent (ie lots of blast weapons) I will combat squad. Also smaller squads are better at not failing morale.

 

Certain strats get more mileage out of large squads (gene wrought might, honor the chapter, rapid fire, adaptive tactics, steady advance, auspex scan) while others get more mileage out of small squads (transhuman, strategic reserves). For me the decision to take full squads that can combat squad gives me the most flexibility to handle various missions.

[Mandragola]

Personally I think that there’s a decent case for taking 10-man squads, on the understanding that I’ll often combat squad them. Even if I’m doing that, I quite like the option to put both grenade launchers in one unit and the sergeant in the other. And sometimes it’s cool to have a big unit that you can stick buffs on.

 

I’m looking at something like 2x10 intercessors, with ABR, fist and 2 grenade launchers, plus 1 or 2x5 incursors. I can’t see any argument for sneaky guys to mob up - that really would just be a liability.

 

A more melee-focussed army might want to max out on power fists, in which case 5-man squads make sense.

[9x19 Parabellum]

... I can’t see any argument for sneaky guys to mob up - that really would just be a liability.

 

 

I don't know...a big 10 man squad of incursors with smokescreen and a defensive buff like an Apothecary 6+ FnP, or BT littany of protection (5+ FnP) that you stick out front on objective(s) and that are threatening a t1 charge so your opponent has to deal with.  That unit could soak up a LOT of shooting.

[Volt]

The best thing about MSU's is that it wastes damage and shots. If the enemy player picks a knight to shoot a squad of 10 tactical marines, they could potentially kill 6+ models and deal an awful lot of harm. Meanwhile, unless the player is psychotic, if they dump shots into an MSU squad they've probably wasted a bunch of fire trying to just kill 5 marines.

[Mandragola]

 

... I can’t see any argument for sneaky guys to mob up - that really would just be a liability.

 

 

I don't know...a big 10 man squad of incursors with smokescreen and a defensive buff like an Apothecary 6+ FnP, or BT littany of protection (5+ FnP) that you stick out front on objective(s) and that are threatening a t1 charge so your opponent has to deal with.  That unit could soak up a LOT of shooting.

 

Hypothetically, yes. But a T1 charge from these guys just isn't very scary. Marines already have loads of ways to do T1 charges with much nastier things, without having a squad sit out in the middle of nowhere risking destruction if the enemy go first.  That BT 5+++ isn't going to be up yet if that happens, and they'll struggle to be in an apothecary's aura too. Smokescreen does help of course.

 

Overall though you're kind of handing your opponent a freebie here I think. It's hard to find a less dangerous unit for 240+ points (rhinos maybe?) and by sticking them near the enemy you'll often allow units that couldn't have attacked at all to shoot or chop them up. This is always the risk of "distraction carnifex" type units - you force the enemy to deal with something but actually bring more of their units into the game by going close to them, thereby making their life easier, not harder.

 

The best thing about MSU's is that it wastes damage and shots. If the enemy player picks a knight to shoot a squad of 10 tactical marines, they could potentially kill 6+ models and deal an awful lot of harm. Meanwhile, unless the player is psychotic, if they dump shots into an MSU squad they've probably wasted a bunch of fire trying to just kill 5 marines.

This illustrates the point. 5 Incursors for 110 points are expendable, if they can be deployed to get in the way and slow your opponent. They might achieve something if you go first. 

 

In general I tend to think that big units are aggressive and MSU is defensive. Big units are about maximising the effect of buffs like litanies, psychic powers and strats. Small ones do the reverse - minimising the effect of those kinds of abilities from the enemy, and wasting their shots.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

In my experience MSU has always been a really aggressive playstyle. There are defensive perks but it's always been been about have alot of threats that can react to your opponents deployment to create mismatches. So I don't think unit size is the best indicator of aggressive playstyles.

[Berzul]

So far in 9th edition I really see way too little benefit in running squads at full size. Stratagems might be more efficient on a larger squad, but the downsides are just too many for it to seem worth it. This is particularly true in units that use larger bases, like bikes. Having a squad go from 5 to 6 bikes makes it way too much of a hassle to use.

[Schlitzaf]

The 2 5 Man MSU being more durable than 1 10 Man isn’t actually true. Or better explain.* If Tacticals:

4 CoolWeapons

2 Sets of 10 Wounds

 

Vs

 

3 CoolWeapons

20 Wound

 

Same wound count right? Yes. Actually functionally no.

 

In 1 10 Man, I need to lose 15 Wounds before I lose MyCool Guns (which is where my damage comes from). In case of MSU I can only lose 7 wounds (or 14 wounds). Meaning I actually have effectively 1 more wound of durability.

 

Now the screaching of “My Morale”. For marines to fail morale at LD8. You need to lose atleast 5 models to have 50/50 chance of failure or 10 wounds. Now admittedly variance sucks here. But more models only one run on a 1. And if you had same variance in case of a 5 man at lost dudebros you’d actually lose more firepower because while 10 man likely loses 2 models. You are garunteeed to lose the OneCoolGun.

 

And for you have to have a reasonable chance of failure you’d had lost an entire msu squad already meaning you already lose half your effective firepower.

 

Intercessors a bit different in this relationship but to some extent core principle still applies. The tl;dr version:

 

2 5 Man’s are not more durable then 1 10 Man. What they are is forces enemy to split fire and potentially waste shots.