How are your games going in 9th so far?

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

Right now I'm trying to figure out the best answer a Primaris based wolf army has for Plague Burst Crawlers. The indirect fire has been pretty brutal for me to deal with. I've wanted storm speeders since they were spoiled so I'm going to try running 2 hammer strikes (for the record I think MM attack bikes, and fangs in pod both would be superior options) just to see if the speed and fly put me in a position to get one out of the way quickly, or at the very least keep my scoring on the board for longer.

My first game v new PBC sucked.

 

The extra BS and super las cannon if they have direct LOS are brutal.

 

There is no "quick" way to remove them either if the DG player knows what he is doing.

 

They can screen and reduce movement by half for anything that gets remotely close

 

 

Yeah the amount of screening they have is rough to deal with so far I haven't been able to get my eradicators into position to go after the PBC with cunning of the wolf. Typically I've ran two units of eradicators with a unit of assault Helblasters as my anti armor, with dreads and weapon upgrades as my back up plan. I'm hoping that outflanking the two squads of eradicators and having the speeders makes setting up the screens difficult enough that I can find some openings.

[Skylarkr6]

I've played once this edition, a 4 player royale style game vs Death Guard, Necrons and Tyranids. I was able to eke out a win by controlling objectives. Most of the focus was on me(fully painted army is scary?) but enough storm shields and positioning let me survive to the end and win by a couple VP

[Bulwyf]

I don't know if this is heresy but are we better off playing SW as SW successors?

 

You give up named characters and the +1 to hit in melee chapter tactics.

 

But you can go: Whirlwind of Rage and Hungry for Battle. The exploding sixes DO stack (confirmed with goonhammer) in assault phase. So you would have +1 to advance and change army wide and up to TWO extra hits for a natural six in the assault phase or just 1 extra hit any other time your are in melee. Suddenly your TWC, termies, assault intercessors, dreads and bladeguard are into combat faster AND doing more damage to boot.

 

Am I nuts for thinking this is better?

[NatBrannigan]

Not at all, it's an excellent combo for a melee army. You are forgetting about the heroic intervention though which is excellent in an objective based game. I'm not sure if people will learn to play around it but even if they do, you're making decisions harder for your opponent which is always a good thing.

 

For me Wolves now have several good ways to boost charges in Wolf Priests, Ragnar etc and most units do enough damage already without needing the extra hits, so I prefer the reliability of +1 and the heroic intervention.

[Kallas]

With the Chapter Tactic, you also give up the non-replicable army-wide Heroic Intervention (might not be the end of the world for some, but worth noting). You also give up Berserk Charge (which specifically requires the Chapter to have the Hunters Unleashed/Inheritors tactic), and you can only have one Relic which also costs 1CP off the bat.

 

Not huge things, necessarily, but they add up.

 

Honestly, I think SW are good, as is. Certain Successor combos can be strong with a specific style in mind (like your Hungry/Whirlwind) but I don't think it's inherently stronger - it's more about the dice than Hunters Unleashed, which has some subtle plays that can't be quantified. Also, that +1 to hit is actually pretty awesome, but maybe that's just me hating rolling 2s 

[Bulwyf]

With the Chapter Tactic, you also give up the non-replicable army-wide Heroic Intervention (might not be the end of the world for some, but worth noting). You also give up Berserk Charge (which specifically requires the Chapter to have the Hunters Unleashed/Inheritors tactic), and you can only have one Relic which also costs 1CP off the bat.

 

Not huge things, necessarily, but they add up.

 

Honestly, I think SW are good, as is. Certain Successor combos can be strong with a specific style in mind (like your Hungry/Whirlwind) but I don't think it's inherently stronger - it's more about the dice than Hunters Unleashed, which has some subtle plays that can't be quantified. Also, that +1 to hit is actually pretty awesome, but maybe that's just me hating rolling 2s 

 

The HI rule never comes up in my games. Absolutely never. The opponents know how to play around it. So that rule which I said was next to worthless has proven to be exactly that for me: worthless. So that's not a loss. Berserk Charge is only for Blood Claws which I never use so that's no loss either.

 

I think successors are better frankly. You lose special characters, a virtually useless HI tactic and trade out +1 to  hit for +1 to advance/charge and potentially 2 extra hits on a six in the assault phase. That's pretty tasty.  I'm not saying the normal SW rules are bad but the HI tactic does nothing so you really are only missing +1 to hit, special characters and the relic restriction. The only one worth taking is Armor of Russ so that's not really a handicap either...

[TiguriusX]

See if your opponents start to play differently when you no longer have the rule.

In my experience HI denies moves my opponents want to make.

I never "gotcha" people with HI and tell them when they move and end in range that I can get them (usually the 6" option flat out stops moves while the 3" option stops them from gaining a good position)

 

I noticed a difference in games when I stopped using the LF-Multimelta DP

Opponents played much more aggressively when they didn't have to worry about something.

 

 

 

I'm curious if the HI rule has a similar influence on game choices that you don't notice until you remove it as an option

Edited March 4, 2021 by TiguriusX

[Bulwyf]

See if your opponents start to play differently when you no longer have the rule.

 

In my experience HI denies moves my opponents want to make.

 

I never "gotcha" people with HI and tell them when they move and end in range that I can get them (usually the 6" option flat out stops moves while the 3" option stops them from gaining a good position)

 

 

I noticed a difference in games when I stopped using the LF-Multimelta DP

Opponents played much more aggressively when they didn't have to worry about something.

 

 

 

I'm curious if the HI rule has a similar influence on game choices that you don't notice until you remove it as an option

 

I'm going to play a friend's cheeseball Salamander list with 15 aggressors and 9 eradicators as a successor so we'll see. I actually am curious if it would make them play differently. 

[CCE1981]

You don’t have to lose +1 to hit on the Charge if you take Born Heroes. If you’re using a Chaplain/Wolf Priest close to your power unit you should be covered for the charge range.

[Kallas]

The HI rule never comes up in my games. Absolutely never. The opponents know how to play around it. So that rule which I said was next to worthless has proven to be exactly that for me: worthless. So that's not a loss. Berserk Charge is only for Blood Claws which I never use so that's no loss either.

 

I think successors are better frankly. You lose special characters, a virtually useless HI tactic and trade out +1 to  hit for +1 to advance/charge and potentially 2 extra hits on a six in the assault phase. That's pretty tasty.  I'm not saying the normal SW rules are bad but the HI tactic does nothing so you really are only missing +1 to hit, special characters and the relic restriction. The only one worth taking is Armor of Russ so that's not really a handicap either...

 

We have fundamentally different experiences then 

 

HI has been important in some of my games. Every game? No, but it is a tool that has paid off pretty handsomely in a noticeable amount of games. As TiguriusX says, it can be played around, but it does force your opponent to do so. Even if it "does nothing" it's actually doing something by forcing your opponent to respect the threat.

 

That said, I have not been playing games in the 'standard' 2000pts range, it's almost exclusively Crusade - although I would say that Crusade games are less focused on Objectives than standard/GT missions, so I feel that the HI would be more important/impactful in GT missions.

[PeteySödes]

Yea im also of the mind the more i can make my opponent do mental gymnastics the more likely they are to make an error, even if its not one that allows the HI, if trying to factor than in slips them up its all good. I think Tigs suggestion to try it without and observe is a good one, its super hard to quantify that sort of thing without testing.

[grahamulot]

 I have won my 3 2000 point games just by surviving. I run lots of infantry with outriders and a 3 man twc unit. I don’t punch hard but marines are hard to shift at 2 wounds and blade guard are brutal. I may drop the Calvary and just run infantry. Some minor things I’ve learned

Outflanking agressors did well 

Even regular intercessors do well when hitting on 2’s

Chaplains are great

go big or go home with TwC, my little unit gets smoked.

And finally I am awful when it comes to utilizing cp

 

we are still space marines and we are still durable as mess

 

 

[Karhedron]

go big or go home with TwC, my little unit gets smoked.

Are you running them with Storm Shields? I would probably look to run a unit of 5.

[grahamulot]

Karhedron I do run them with SS however I only have 3 models at present. They do absorb a good amount of firepower for such a small unit but I tend to overthink things as I have weeks between games usually. Maybe I should bulk to 5 before judgement however as it just seems to me that I don't have the proper support and they have woefully underperformed. 

Edited March 18, 2021 by grahamulot

[Bulwyf]

My favorite thing with TWC is to run a squad of 5. 4 with TH/SS and the sarge with PF/SS. Put a Wolf Lord on TW with them as a Chapter master upgrade. He gives them full rerolls to hit. It is so fun to watch your opponent put everything into them and yet enough remain to deal some wicked damage. Meanwhile the rest of your army isn't getting shot and just goes wild. Put 3 Redemptor Dreads in that list and its just cake.

[CCE1981]

Wouldn’t a Primaris Chaplain on an Outrider be better? I figure with his heal he would help them out incredibly....or add him to the mix with Exhortation of Rage and Mantra of Strength.

[CrystalSeer]

Better at buffing but less individually smashy

[CCE1981]

Also the ability to heal.

[Karhedron]

 

Wouldn’t a Primaris Chaplain on an Outrider be better? I figure with his heal he would help them out incredibly....or add him to the mix with Exhortation of Rage and Mantra of Strength.

Better at buffing but less individually smashy

 

I dunno. With the Relic Crozius and Mantra of Strength he gets 6A at S7 with AP-2 and 4D in the first round of combat. 6s score and extra MW. And unlike a character with Fist/Hammer, he continues to hit on 2s in subsequent rounds of combat. Give him Hunter WLT and he can Advance 21" and still charge 2D6+1". That is amazing for wiping under-strength units off Objectives in the late game.

 

Also the ability to heal.

At 1CP for D3 wounds, I would probably only use this strat on a valuable character.