No Troops?

[redmapa]

At first I wanted to post this in the Black Templar forum but I think there might be more interesting answers if everyone's involved. So I get that Troops are a key component in 9th edition for army building and objective taking BUT we have access to Rites of War to grant Objective Secured to any Core units and then there's the Chapter Ancient warlord trait to double a unit's ObSec if it already has it (which can be granted through Rites of War).

 

So, what are some fun ideas to exploit this idea? Terminators are really tanky and killy right now, a 5 man squad counting as a 10 man ObSec unit sounds really tasty! Speed is key in 9th, maybe a couple large squads of Bikes or Jump Infantry.

 

The only con to this is that it relies on two characters so you have to bunch them together to get the most of it and at most you'd be taking over two objectives which is enough but I think it forces you to be offensive but it offers the opportunity to do other stuff in your list building.

 

I just wanted to hear your thoughts on foregoing troops and what kind of lists you'd take using this kind of aura combo.

[War Angel]

I don’t know what they cost, but sternguard have a pretty nice range attack with the special issue Bolter.

[Marshal Mittens]

I thought about doing an elites focused force with Van Vets, blade guard, and agresdors.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

So you can hold one to two objectives max with faux objsec.

[Dracos]

I see it, but I can't imagine much success competitively without less than 20% of my army as Troop ObSec.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I see it, but I can't imagine much success competitively without less than 20% of my army as Troop ObSec.

https://www.goonhammer.com/start-competing-black-templars-tactics/

 

Ben Cherwien managed a 3rd place at a tournament without a single troop unit?

Edited December 31, 2020 by Brother Adelard

[Karhedron]

That is the thing I have noticed about 9th edition. When it first dropped, everyone assumed that tough units with ObjSec would be the key to victory. But in fact it looks like being able to reliably KILL tough units with ObjSec is where its at. Your opponent's ObjSec is of no value if their Troop units are dead.

 

Maxing out on Elites that combine killing power with durability seems to be doing well for a lot of people. Dual Patrol seems popular but some people are ditching Troops entirely as noted above.

 

I guess sometimes the best defense is a good offense!

[Dracos]

 

I see it, but I can't imagine much success competitively without less than 20% of my army as Troop ObSec.

https://www.goonhammer.com/start-competing-black-templars-tactics/

 

Ben Cherwien managed a 3rd place at a tournament without a single troop unit?

 

 

I should have been more precise I suppose. I meant my Raven Guard army. This is a great real world tested example Brother Adelard. Thank you. I still think I want at least two units of Incursors, but this definitely opens my mind to more possibilities. My most of wins in 9th so far have not been at a tournament level (except with the Knights) So I'll definitely be looking at adding a couple more Gravis units to my list when local tournaments start again.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Its definitely a viable strategy for some chapters but it has some drawbacks in my opinion. 

 

I wouldn't consider doing it unless I was running a chapter with a fair amount of movement tricks. I think Black Templars, and Space Wolves would be the best choices. Space wolves have army wide Heroic Intervention, and Templars have Devout Push which makes it extremely difficult for an obsec unit to take an objective from them with movement alone because your not going to be able to give the whole army obsec with auras. In my experience with 9th its very difficult to win with out scoring 40-45 points on the primary and those two chapters give you the best shot at it consistently because they can defend them better. 

 

I do think there are some drawbacks with the strategy.

 

1) It seems like Bladeguard Vets, and Vanguard Vets are the two elite choices that really drive this type of army. Space Wolves do have thunder wolf cav which helps but if one or more of those units goes up in points it can really derail this playstyle. Company Vets and terminators are a decent alternatives but I don't think they're at the same level as the other squads.

 

2)  Detachments are more restrictive, and you lose out on command points. Its going to be hard to tweak this list because of limited slots, so if there is a meta shift it may be hard to respond (I tend to think that this style of list will struggle with the new deathguard depending on their point costs). You can run a second detachment but then you end up with about half the cp someone running a battalion has.

 

3) The Rites of War warlord trait is a must take, so your limited in your other options with characters. I don't know if the ancient is worth it (the chief apothecary is going to be very tempting for most chapters in a list this elite).

[Riddlesworth]

The biggest restriction with not taking troops in 9th for me is the loss of CP.

 

Having access to a potential pre game spend of 5 CP at 2k points (2 extra relics, 2 extra characters with warlord traits, double tapping traits on your warlord), plus any reserves shenanigans leaves you painfully low on CPnin a book that has some game changing strats. To then have to pay 2 CP minimum just for the army to exist is tough.

 

If you can build your list to accommodate that, as ben did - using the mobility of the bike chaplain to put obsec where it was needed - then great

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

We has been spoilt for the best troops in the game.

[Debauchery101]

I am becoming further and further entrenched into the DW.

Its such a huge advantage to be able to take all I need for the majority of the match in troops slots.

Which allows me to take a bunch of characters to buff and heal them

I also have really gone to the darkside trying out the Indomitor Killteam castle.

[Charlo]

Yeah, rites of war and the utterly gnarly Vanguard Vets are a winning combo for pretty much every high tier chapter right now. Nothing comes close to the killyness/ tankiness/ mobility/ points ratio.

 

Terminators are certainly close behind however, pushing more into the resilience side of things.

 

However, I don't think it's infallible. Rites of War can be countered with snipers or other character removal which all but takes away these lists abilities to score.

[Dracos]

Apparently Deathwing Termies are wrecking face

[The Unseen]

I would also point out, even with no troops, in a lot of match-ups, your obsec or lack thereof won't matter, as the enemy will have a ton more bodies to throw onto objectives than marines will.

So sometimes the best play is just to kill everything on an objective and then physically block the objective by standing between it and the units your opponent is gonna send.

Its easier to do if your unit has obsec, as then the units they can send around are limited and/or they have to send more to outweigh your dudes, but it isnt necessary.

[Karhedron]

Apparently Deathwing Termies are wrecking face

Built-in THP is a big help there.

[Prot]

(excuse my ignorance but I don't read a lot of goonhammer, and just shoot for my own gaming experiences...)

 

Just my experience against super killy - low / no troops armies..... in those games you are compensating for -contesting- your opponent's objectives in 2 ways: 1: You own your own board edge through killiness -or- board control. And 2: you are so offensively killy, your opponent has trouble holding his own objectives.

(For a side note, my only true attempt at this is with my Eldar lists which are forced to play this way through horrid troop options. AdMech can be forced into this playstyle as well.)

 

This allows you to use killy secondaries and go with the game theory of; 'I will just get 10 points per turn, and out score my opponent on secondaries'

 

So this is good, and absolutely works. My problem with it is it will have hard counters. (Someone killier with different means; IE. Mortal wound spam). And the second hard counter is a rock of an army with amazing ObSec; Custodes.... perhaps DG when we finally see the post Brexit codex.

 

This isn't a style of army I like to play. I prefer a more balanced approach in my own lists. So while I've played against that style of army many times in 9th, I can't honestly say I like it for long term competitive play.

Edited January 2, 2021 by Prot

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think is always better to have some pure obsec not relying upon a warlord trait which forces you to play a static army that can really only control one objective marker.

[Xenith]

Rather than obsec, what I think you need is sufficient units to be able to hold minimum 3 objectives simultaneously for the "hold more" primaries. 

 

I recently ran a 1000pt list with 21 TDA models and a combat squad in a patrol. Plenty killy, and really tough, but I couldnt reach out and grab opposing objectives while holding home ones. 

 

Dropping 2-3 terminators to take another scout or tactical squad might see more success. 

[Dracos]

Truth to that and if you get first turn it would be more feasible. Thing is with only 4 scoring turns for primaries it’s quite a gamble imo not to make a real push for primary scoring from the go. It’s why infiltrators are so important in this edition ... and obviously not all but a lot of factions infiltrators are troop choices.

[Snazzy]

I would also point out, even with no troops, in a lot of match-ups, your obsec or lack thereof won't matter, as the enemy will have a ton more bodies to throw onto objectives than marines will.

So sometimes the best play is just to kill everything on an objective and then physically block the objective by standing between it and the units your opponent is gonna send.

Its easier to do if your unit has obsec, as then the units they can send around are limited and/or they have to send more to outweigh your dudes, but it isnt necessary.

 

This is a good point.  ObSec is really only a threat in a scenario in which you outnumber the enemy, but they have ObSec and you don't.