Wishes for new Roboute!

[Lykke]

I'm kinda currious if we are going to see changes to gman, when (evt) the new supplement drops.

 

If we look at how somethings are changed in 9th, it seems like there is a nerfering to most invus save. 

 

If this is the case for gman, and he goes from ++3 to ++4, how would you like to balance him, if he was to stay at the same cost? this is purely hypothetical and for some fun speculation/discussion.

 

Personally I think as he is now, his pretty good, but kinda boring. I also hope he looses the 50/50 change to get back up, as thats just to random imo and his warlord trait is kinda meh, when considering that his is a Primarch and therefor show be more unique to him

 

so.. How does your dream gman looks like? 

 

/cheers 

 

 

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

Honestly, HONESTLY, I feel Guilliman shouldn't be a beat stick. I feel like he should buff his army to an insane degree. That was always his strengths in lore: leadership, administration, statesmanship, and tactical genius and flexibility. Yes he is a Primarch and infantry should fall before him like nothing, but he shouldn't be such a combat monster. Leave that to when Leman Russ or Angron are released so they can delete whatever they touch, that's THEIR strong suit. Guilliman should be the ultimate space marine buffing unit in my opinion. What that would look like I have no idea. I'm not a rules writer, but my plan for the unit would follow the above guidelines.

[phoenix01]

Since Mortarion now has three warlord traits, Guilliman should have more than one, probably Paragon of War (which would really only affect his Hand of Dominion since the Emperor's Sword gives D3 MW) and Nobility Made Manifest if I had to pick. He should also grant the ability to select the active doctrine (Devastator, Tactical, or Assault) for all friendly ULTRAMARINES units (essentially a super Master of Strategy WT). Any friendly ULTRAMARINES or ULTRAMARINES SUCCESSOR unit within 6" should automatically pass all Morale checks, and friendly ULTRAMARINES or ULTRAMARINES SUCCESSOR units within 6" that are out of Unit Coherency should be able to make a "consolidation" type move up to 3" into unit coherency rather than lose models (since he inspires loyalty and courage amongst his sons).

Edited January 12, 2021 by phoenix01

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

I like that idea. It's only fair for Guilliman to have multiple warlord traits if Mortarion does.

[Prot]

Actually by the novels, as long as Guilliman possesses the Emperor's sword, you bet he should be a beat stick indeed.... a beat stick with a fire sword that scares the (rotten) pants off of Mortarion. Greater Unclean(s) were terrified of being ripped apart by that sword, and with good reason. It is written in the novels that any daemon considers that sword their undoing. IE: they will not be remade in the warp if that sword cuts them down.

 

The sword has been turned down by fact of Guilliman's aura nerf in 8th. 

 

His Invuln will probably stay a 3+. He doesn't have the survival methods of the Daemon Primarchs. He's unable to stand up to other equivalents so he needs that survival built in or he will be useless. He isn't -1 to hit, can't have great powers cast on him, doesn't have the other mitigating powers that the others do. In actual use, I've never seen him take down the Necron "Primarch". (Whether he should or shouldn't isn't part of the equation, I've just never seen him take down the King.)

 

Guilliman's aura is definitely turned down. Also you can't re-roll his ability to come back from death now. He's been turned down and we can see Mortarion has been turned up. 

 

So I would suggest the changes to Guilliman will be very, very little. For me the easiest choice is his Warlord Trait. He is the author of the Astartes manual- we all know this. I would think that Mortarion's new "triple Warlord trait" feature should be something similar for Guilliman. It would better reflect his tactical genius, and fit much better into the restraints that a Supreme Command detachment force on the army as a whole.

 

Secondly, since the nerf of the sword, it isn't nearly as potent as it used to be. It was nearly automatic, and that made sense in 7th. He's using the God-Emperor's sword and it felt much more apt in 7th. I'm honestly not sure how it should be handled now. Damage has ramped up in 9th and I think it will continue to do so with every codex. (Which as a sidenote is why I wish people would stop ragging on the marine codex... I guarantee about 5-6 codexes out from now, the marines will feel very ordinary... as has been the case in the last 2 editions.)

 

Damage is bigger, but Guilliman's personal ability, and aura (army wide) ability has been diminished. He's less survivable vai his armour on death, so I don't realistically think you can turn him down at all without him just never seeing competitive play.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

+1 everything Prot said .

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

In terms of his melee prowess I remember in the novel Betrayer by ADB Angron and Lorgar were playing tag team against him but they couldn’t ever finish him. That’s one Primarch versus two... kind of a big deal when you consider other Primarchs were one shot by other Primarchs like Alpharius and Ferrus.

[emperorpants]

I could see Guilliman staying mostly the same, but gaining the multiple warlord trait thing. I could also see the sword gaining a 2cp strat where it ignored invuln saves for a turn, or something similar. Perhaps an ability to ignore damage reduction abilities. One of those would reflect how the novels portray the sword giving demons and their ilk true death.

[Subtleknife]

Personally I think he should stay the same. But with a few twists.

 

-I would give him back his sweep ability.

-I would allow him to either make one unit within X reroll all wounds or perhaps gain +1 to wound. This is something Ultras are sorely lacking imo.

-Allow him to set what doctrine phase the Ultras are in or if that is too OP then can change one unit to any doctrine phase.

-Allow him to ride in a repulsor or land raider.

 

 

I do think he needs some spice added to him. I dont think his current form really captures his lore very well.

Edited January 13, 2021 by Subtleknife

[Prot]

I could see some of the above, but that riding in a vehicle? Never going to happen. It's far too difficult for GW to control his damage output and effect on the game with all the difficulties that would present. 

 

I think in terms of background he certainly should be able to use a transport, but even if it happened I think it would just jack his points up too much because you could hide him a bit more, get him up the board faster, use his aura in the opponent's zone much faster.

 

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he sees a boost, but my fear is the point hike. He's really not that great, and I think they're setting up Mortarion to be an absolute beast. GW doesn't always understand their own game that well. I think they've learned to be afraid of setting loose the Bash Brothers again. They will make sure that while stuff like the Silent King will sell, they will keep Guilliman a little under the radar.

 

I hope I'm wrong, but that's what I see actually happening. 

[Subtleknife]

I agree Prot, the transport bit was more of a dream than something I think would actually happen for the reasons listed. I agree with the other parts too. Edited January 13, 2021 by Subtleknife

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You can put him reserve right ? Not that I’d ever want to.

[Prot]

Yea, some people will put Magnus in reserves for example. It makes more sense with armies that can provide a host of buffs, but rely on getting those buffs off. We don't really have much to offer for protective buffs so I think it's less of a factor for us. 

 

I personally just want to see how playabe he is and he hopefully has a point cost that doesn't make his abilities moot, pointing him out of most lists.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

At 380 points he is definitely overcosted. He should have old school chapter master buffs.

[Subtleknife]

After having seen the changes they have made to morty I am slightly more hopeful GW might do RG justice when the next supplement drops (whenever that maybe)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

GeeDub loves hero hammer.

[Prot]

GeeDub loves hero hammer.

 

Lately, I'd agree. I remember the old days (I mean really old days) when named characters all stunk. Those days are long gone now, but I have to be honest I kind of like iconic characters being very potent.

 

As of this morning (I'm watching DG battle reports/Codex leaks) it does look like Mortarion is a suitable beast for the DG. That bodes well for us.

[Subtleknife]

Remember having to ask your opponent if you could use special characters

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Lol there’s some people that still complain... :D

[Ishagu]

I expect Guilliman to be a lot more usable after the next supplement. Look at how Mortarion was substantially improved and his costs were kept the same.

 

He's just a bit too pricey and easy to kill right now, and his offensive output is very diminished after he lost access to wound re-rolls.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Ishagu

[Medjugorje]

I think he should have all "strategic" WL Traits and the sword should be stronger. Its THE weapon.

[Ishagu]

I'm OK with moving away from bubble hammer as long as he has other interesting/Tactical options.

 

The idea of perhaps having all Warlord traits from one source is quite interesting, and would actually make sense.

[L30n1d4s]

This might be Heresy in this forum ;) , but I would love to see less of Guilliman as the senior Ultramarine (we have PriMarneus for that role) and more as the Commander of all Humanity.

 

Specifically, I'd love to see him with his 12" bubble giving all Imperium not just reroll 1s to hit and +1" advance/charge and re-roll Morale but also a three part aura, of which he can pick one (not all three) to activate each turn in the Command Phase.

 

Choices would be:

 

1 - 12" aura of Fearless

2 - 12" aura of +1A

3 - 12" aura of enemy AP-1 attacks becoming AP0

 

All of these are useful, at least in the right circumstances, but not completely OP and would allow good Imperium generals to use the right buff in the right circumstances to force multiply their army.

 

I would also give him a rule that let's him join any Imperium army without breaking their special abilities that require them to be mono-faction.

 

Finally, at the end of the day, he is still Primarch of the Ultramarines, so he would keep his full rerolls to hit/reroll 1s to wound for UM Core and Characters within 6" (and, of course, as part of the Imperium, UMs would benefit from his 12" aura benefits as well).

Edited January 21, 2021 by L30n1d4s

[Ishagu]

They are moving towards mono-faction armies, so I'd much rather they focuses his rules on his own faction (perhaps wider Astartes) and gave other factions their own unique super-generals.

[greatcrusade08]

Heres the question. since Gman now has the ACME sword and nifty armour, could fulgrim beat him again?