Wishes for new Roboute!

[Brother Kraskor]

Heres the question. since Gman now has the ACME sword and nifty armour, could fulgrim beat him again?

 

Would love to see a rematch! The Daemon Fulgrim is still kicking around right? And also there's that clone loyalist Fulgrim... not sure what to make of him though.

[Iron Sage]

This might be Heresy in this forum , but I would love to see less of Guilliman as the senior Ultramarine (we have PriMarneus for that role) and more as the Commander of all Humanity.

 

Specifically, I'd love to see him with his 12" bubble giving all Imperium not just reroll 1s to hit and +1" advance/charge and re-roll Morale but also a three part aura, of which he can pick one (not all three) to activate each turn in the Command Phase.

 

Choices would be:

 

1 - 12" aura of Fearless

2 - 12" aura of +1A

3 - 12" aura of enemy AP-1 attacks becoming AP0

 

All of these are useful, at least in the right circumstances, but not completely OP and would allow good Imperium generals to use the right buff in the right circumstances to force multiply their army.

 

I would also give him a rule that let's him join any Imperium army without breaking their special abilities that require them to be mono-faction.

 

Finally, at the end of the day, he is still Primarch of the Ultramarines, so he would keep his full rerolls to hit/reroll 1s to wound for UM Core and Characters within 6" (and, of course, as part of the Imperium, UMs would benefit from his 12" aura benefits as well).

How would you balance that without creating Troll-Soup ?

 

Anyway, I loved Phoenix1's suggestions. That's what Gulliman is to me, a strategic and tactical genius. Your suggestions are fine too, but I dislike the suggestion of making him overall commander of the Imperium, that's a horrible suggestion I think.

After all, he already is the commander of all the Imperium, he already does command countless Guard regiments. But he doesn't take to the field for petty stuff or attritional warfare, what you see in the game is the "scene" where he with a select few of his Honour Guard and favoured warriors, strikes the command echelon of the enemy, the head of the hydra and so on. The main battles of the wars are off-screen. An Imperial Guard artillery battery is clearly off-screen, fighting kilometres behind the lines and these people will probably never see Guilliman outside pict-screens of imperial propaganda, or actually in the tick of it, facing the brunt of the enemy's "normal" forces in bloody attritional warfare. The massive battles, where thousand upon thousand of Guardsmen fight wailing cultists, traitor guard and the odd sprinkled in Traitor Astartes, is Off-Screen, or that's how I justify the lore to myself anyway. Naturally, Gulliman does not take to the field to aid an Imperial Guard tank company, if he thinks it needs aid, he will send reinforcements, maybe even Stormtroopers if they are crucial enough to overall strategic plans. Probably not Astartes though unless the situation is super critical, and then only if they are needed most there. He himself, will almost definitely not take to the field alongside Guardsmen unless it is some legendary battle, like around the Imperial Palace etc., or a critical attack where he leads his forces in person. Then again, while there may very well be a few hundred Guardsmen in that "scene", the Astartes, larger than life, will be in the spotlight and the Primarch even more so. However, this is how I view the game and the lore/fluff and justify the, honestly ridiculously small 40k battles. It is just a scene of a much greater whole.

 

So yeah, I think it could be probably abused a lot if he could be taken as HQ of Guard and Mechanicus and I also think it is not at all Lore-friendly, since scenes where Guilliman leads common men without Honour Guard will be very, very far between and Guilliman is no mere Lieutenant- Colonel of an Imperial Tank Batallion. But naturally, this is just my opinion and you can feel free to want to make Gulliman a super duper commander nr. 1 of all imperial codices if you really want to. I personally hope that game devs don't take that route though, since I see no lore-friendly place for him in non-Astartes armies barring a legendary battle here and there.

[jonjacob]

I think one aspect that does need to change within our supplement for the future, is the special rules tied to being the warlord of army. The +3cp / +2cp was a good justification to take those characters but we are drowning in CP these days.

In its stead you could have various rules that give a ultramarines flavour, bending or manipulating core game mechanics, or simple buffs to codex based features.

 

It would be nice to see the our named character battle ethos played out if rules a little more is all I'm trying to say here really.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

He’s pretty good as is though I’d like to see his points brought back down 350 and maybe a couple of extra warlord traits. People are already crying how busted is Mortarion now .

[Prot]

I gotta say the more I see of Morty, it makes me think 4-5 codexes down the road I'm going to say something perhaps a bit controversial: Guilliman will need a giant survival buff. 

 

I'm thinking fluff, and rules wise the Armour of Fate gives half damage (like Calgar has) or less favourably; perma-Transhuman and a wound gained per battle round.

 

Right now, if I'm making the most competitive list I can, I'm taking him out, putting in Calgar, and taking Seal of Oath to mimic the effect of Guilliman without the point sink and awkwardness of moving a foot bound monster through the plethora of ruins/trees in 9th edition.

 

I've said this before but I'm extremely fed up with youtube 'celebs' declaring stuff like the apothecary, outriders, eradicators, etc being too powerful. These people are making grand judgements in a fishbowl. I guarantee 3-4 codexes from now no one's going to blink at the fact you brought back a hellblaster or bike from the dead.

 

+as a side note I don't  want to see an Ultra type codex/supplement for at least 3 or more codex releases.

Edited January 29, 2021 by Prot

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’d be nice if he gets back up on a 2+ like the Saint.

 

If you think about it we have a good chance at bringing him down:

 

Seal of Oath for full rerolls. Tiggy boosted with Empiric Channeling will get off Null Zone then G whacks him with the Hand of Dominion.

[Azekai]

 

I've said this before but I'm extremely fed up with youtube 'celebs' declaring stuff like the apothecary, outriders, eradicators, etc being too powerful. These people are making grand judgements in a fishbowl. I guarantee 3-4 codexes from now no one's going to blink at the fact you brought back a hellblaster or bike from the dead.

Gonna push back on this. Most of the people I listen to are playing lots and lots of tabletop simulator and aren't just shooting their mouth off without playing. The apothecary is powerful, getting units back from the dead is no small deal. Is it absolutely insane and meta defining? Eh, probably not. But it is a great value and certainly worth taking above many other choices.

 

Eradicators are about as strong an anti-armor unit as you could ask for in any army. Imperial melta is very strong right now and these guys being able to shoot twice is kinda nuts; other factions with shoot-twice abilities can be scary, but eradicators do this all the time for free. They are very good. 

 

I guarantee 3-4 codexes from now no one's going to blink at the fact you brought back a hellblaster or bike from the dead.

This just does not seem logical. To say 'well, powercreep is a thing, so our strongest units aren't actually that strong as compared to some future hypothetical.' What?

 

Right now, marines of various flavors are the army to beat.

 

And maybe harlequins.

Edited January 29, 2021 by Azekai

[Prot]

Just so you know I play. I play a lot and not on any simulator. My opinions come from those game experiences and the years since second edition ended. 

 

 

 

I guarantee 3-4 codexes from now no one's going to blink at the fact you brought back a hellblaster or bike from the dead.

This just does not seem logical. To say 'well, powercreep is a thing, so our strongest units aren't actually that strong as compared to some future hypothetical.' What?

Right now, marines of various flavors are the army to beat.

And maybe harlequins.

 

The point is people are making absurd statements based on an edition that has only 2-3 real codexes out. 

 

Let me take you back to just 1 edition ago. 8th just came out. Marines and Admech were released. All you saw at tournaments were Guilliman lists surrounded by Stormravens and razorbacks. GW nerfed it all into the ground. 2-3 codex releases later you’d never see anyone take a storm raven or Guilliman. 

 

This has all happened before and it’ll happen again. The edition may change but the pattern is similar. 

 

But this conversation has to (and will) stay focused on Guilliman. Those are my reasons for stating my suggestions for Guilliman. I still stand by the premise that the ramp up of damage in this edition will require pretty significant changes to him.

Edited January 30, 2021 by Prot

[Prot]

It’d be nice if he gets back up on a 2+ like the Saint.

 

If you think about it we have a good chance at bringing him down:

 

Seal of Oath for full rerolls. Tiggy boosted with Empiric Channeling will get off Null Zone then G whacks him with the Hand of Dominion.

That sounds like a possibility since the 4+ was based on the fact you could reroll it. The armour of fate gives a lot of opportunity to help his survivability. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I mean for his points it’s only reasonable and I agree 100% with your observations. SM are good so people want nerfs. Already GeeDub is again releasing new codices with broken OP rules that aren’t going to be any fun to play against... it doesn’t bode well for ninth edition.

[Ishagu]

They can either go the route of making him very powerful, with amazing abilities, but expensive.

 

Or they can make him much cheaper.

 

Either is good, but at the moment he simply costs far too much for his durability and what he provides. He does have a better aura now than a chapter master at least, but his most unique rule is re rolling 1s for vehicles which isn't amazing because the SM vehicles are lackluster.

 

They could swap the resurrection for a 5+ FNP, I think I would prefer that. A single roll of 4+ is so unreliable. Alternatively they could make it a Strat - Make it cost 2/3CP but it guarantees his resurrection.

 

Lastly, with Morty having 3 Warlord traits, I think it's fair to say that Guilliman - the master of tactics - should have access to more and also a flexibility in chosing them.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’d rather he gets back up on 2+.

[Brother Ramael]

I just saw the thread and I wanted to chime in by saying that RG's age is indeed showing, he really needs a revision to keep up with the beasts from the Necron/DG codex.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Funny how nobody’s complaining about TSK giving full rerolls to wound ...

[Ishagu]

Looking at the DA book, just one example:

 

Azrael's aura, giving all infantry and bikes around him a 4+ invul, on a character with a better weapon and rules then Calgar, and who only costs 170 points, perfectly illustrates how outdated the Ultras rules are.

 

The DA psychic discipline and various rules, relics, strats and abilities only cement that further. Their named Libby is better than Tiggy too.

 

It's not just Guilliman that needs and update now. So let's hope our supplament update isn't too far away.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Calgar would smash the dreg out of Azreal. The 4++ is something he’s done since 8th and encourages castling which is a big no no in 9th edition.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Working on Novamarines, so don't much care about characters as much.

Ezekiel is definitely a better character than Azrael, the 4++ isn't really as useful anymore now that it is only infantry and bikes, when the best units already have Jink or Terminator armor. Ezekiel always buffed melee, and Interromancy more or less is the same as 8E, it just now actually does what it was always supposed to. It is very debuff heavy, which makes sense for DA.

 

I think it will be a ways for an updated supplement though. I don't really worry about it right now for my forces, as coming from the DA/SW side, we had to wait 6+ months to even get access to combat doctrines in 8E and never saw certain updates like chapter master rerolls, so the wait can be much longer than one might like.

Edited January 31, 2021 by WrathOfTheLion

[Medjugorje]

I would like to see the sword improved (reroll wounds) and maybe all 6 Ultramarine WL-Traits ( no explanation needed I hope ).

Otherwise I like his current rules, they fit perfect.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think all of the warlord traits is a bit much. The Hand of Dominion is your go to versus high toughness many wound targets.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

[Ishagu]

Calgar would smash the dreg out of Azreal. The 4++ is something he’s done since 8th and encourages castling which is a big no no in 9th edition.

Nah, Azrael has a flat 3 Damage weapon. It's better guaranteed damage.

 

Azrael also makes the army around him more durable. He does what Calgar does but better. Also Calgar or any other weapon can only wound him on a 4+ so he's actually more durable.

 

At the moment DA can do everything the Ultras can do but better, so we definitely need an updated set of rules - and not just the Ultras but all of the chapters who received a supplement in the last edition.

Edited January 31, 2021 by Ishagu

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’m not going to argue with you but just say I disagree,

[Prot]

It's all good guys. We now see further support to my earlier point about how incredibly potent each new codex becomes, and makes the early Space Marine 'nerf' cries seem a bit premature.

 

I said Guilliman would need a tremendous survival boost to even be relevant by the time we get a half dozen codexes into 9th. Now we see with the release of Dark Angels, the power range of that codex, across so many units makes it very apparent that a "primarch" has to be pretty amazing to stand out.

 

The way the general player base seems to be reacting to Dark Angels it actually slightly shifts this argument from the Death Guard comparisons a bit as it shows us how potent Azrael is, and he's certainly an auto include. 

 

I guess in terms of this conversation I don't feel that way about Guilliman at all. But The Silent King, and Mortarion will very likely be in most tournament armies of their respective factions.

[Mordas]

I agree with Prot here, each new codex that has been released has seen interesting changes and by the time all of them are released I really think we will have an interesting game.

 

I have never been more excited to see what GW does for each faction and its great to see how a lot of units previously unseen on tabletops are becoming more viable.

 

I haven't used RG since 8th edition but looking at all the other codexes coming out I would say we will be in line for some really nice changes to him. I am just hoping that our supplement arrives before my Brother v Brother match against Mortarion goes down!

[Ishagu]

I don't doubt that he'll see an improvement in the next supplement. I just wonder how long we'll have to wait?