Thousand Sons Helbrute anti-materiel saturation suitable?

[DOGGED]

Hi there!

 

Thousand Sons antitank capability is a periodically resurfacing topic as it's commonly agreed that such facet is not a strength of the TS armies, ironically as they sport a nice anti-personnel performance.

 

I've read some consistent approaches to it based in HtH carried by Maulerfiends or Helbrutes, the latter also playing the ranged role both with multimelta + delivery method and lascannons.

 

The Ritual of the Damned book brought about renewed love for Rubrics and Scarabs with the ability to double the bolter firepower when stationary. The thing is, Helbrutes share this capability.

 

Such firepower, when combined with Inferno bolts, can even hurt tanks because of saturation: when stationary, 9 Bolter armed Rubrics put  out 18 shots which can double via strat. That's 12/24 hits. Able to dish out about 3/6 wounds to a tank, although that's not cost effective.

 

But then Helbrutes, which also benefit from the above ability can via strats both have Inferno ammo for their heavy bolters and further double their output (with limitations regarding targets but let's go). That's a natural 12 shots/8 hits per turn which via strat can be 24/16. And they are cheaper than Rubrics and Scarabs too. Also via strat a vehicle can reroll failed hits and wounds so output can get up to 11/21 hits, dealing out about from almost 2 to up to 8 wounds to a tank. Also in its anti-personnel role it would mean up to 12 wounds to MEQ.

 

In comparison, a Lascannon armed Helbrute can deal out up to 1.8/3.5 hits per turn which translates to 3/6 wounds to a tank (more or less) and comes up some 20% more expensive in points IIRC.

 

I am considering buillding a couple such Heavy Bolter Helbrutes for flank denial/softening up/deep striking purposes. Is it worth considering it can cost up to 2 CP for its best performance?

[WarriorFish]

I think Helbrutes are one of the standard AT picks for Sons, or at least common. Not too expensive and with plenty of options - plus Dreads are cool. The change to Heavy Bolters changes the long standing builds I think they're a solid pick for flexible output. I'm not sure on Command Point spend for them though, it's better to consider them as they come I think. Aside from the cost, it means less reliance on a finite resource (with high competition) and a more reliable baseline of expectations.

 

For example Fire Frenzy is great, but somewhat situational - a nice bonus move when you can and against a good target. This is my general approach to Stratagems though, so perhaps someone else with a more similar approach can help more.

[Prot]

Honeslty the idea seems overly thought out. I don't mean that in a facetious way but I really think the answer is simple: The cheapest AT, that is semi-reliable, is a MM Helbrute. Tried and true.  I've had dozens of 9th ed games and usually my AT is based on that helbrute (sometimes) and then I have also used the Decimators with mortal wound soul burner Petards, and/or Contemptors with Dual double lascannons.

 

The thing is my set up really doesn't require babysitting, and no CP to function. 

 

I think with my Chaos armies especially, they are just so incredibly dependent on CP to be remotely competitive (I don't play Chaos Daemons in 9th). I want every CP for -1 to hit/+1 to Invuln, or the new strats, or VotLW.

 

If you play Thousand Sons then you know these are not just your bread and butter, but you pretty much live off of these. 

 

There is nothing wrong with using the Dreads/Brutes, but they disappear in 9th really easy and we don't have -1 to damage like loyalist dreads making them even more difficult to keep alive.

 

That's just my playing experience. I'd rather say I've found some super cool answer to vehicle issues, but for right now the fact that the game is very anti-vehicle is my best friend. (that changed just a tiny bit with the FAQ).

[Ulfast]

I tihnk you are right Prot, all daemons engines are nice but they need to much support. And I want to use my unit for other stuff. I´m looking into Helbrutes but I actually use two basic predator as they also need little support. I tihnk hel brutes are better but for now I´m using them.

[Prot]

Thanks, but I definitely haven't tried everything. There's a good chance something else works better. 

[Archaeinox]

Have you used an exalted next to those predators, Ulfast?

 

Prophecy's relic is really good for that. If they're armed with Lascannons, it makes the d6 damage better.. if you need it

 

The helbrutes are really good in most any 9th ed context, I've found. I wish I had more.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Archaeinox

[Ulfast]

Yes Archaeinox, I usually (specially in turn 1 and 2) have an exalted besides them. After turn two they are usually dead or don´t need his support any longer so he can be more free. so far it works ok. Best thing is that my opponents usually don´t see themas a big threat (compare to a unit of 10 terminators) so they skip shooting at them and that has some times beena  big mistakes as a predator with two las cannons and a predator autocannon can do a lot of damage.

[Xenith]

I've used dreadnoughts/hellbrutes for a long time as anti tank and as CC support in my TS armies. I'd say that rather than taking anti infantry guns and spending loads of CP to make them perform like anti tank guns...just take the anti tank guns. All the strats that made a heavy bolter ok vs a tank, makes a multimelta really good against that tank. 

[Iron Sage]

Not that it matters in this very moment in time, but at least, when you finally get your "Real Marine" update with 2 W, your Dreadnought will get Monstrous Resilience (basically the new Disgustingly Resilience, only for Dreadnoughts) and a better version of Frenzy (the new one is that it re-rolls wound rolls of 1s if the dreadnought has taken a single wound during the battle). Sure, the old frenzy can be more powerful, but restricts you to shoot at closest unit (so I reckon re-rolling 1s to wound is better, and particularly if you have melta).

 

While I understand that GW wants to sell books and many of them, I am quite critical of how they run the game this edition, with refusing to FAQ massive and glaring issues such as wounds on marines. Can save the strats and changes to various units for the coming books, but obvious eye sores of doom, such as having still 1 W marines and 2 W terminators, ought to be fixed and FAQed with a temporary points adjustment even though the future book may change how various units works. Calculating the wounds and points adjustments  doesn't seem like the biggest project ever for GWs Game Devs though.

[Lucky_Lee]

Hi there!

 

Thousand Sons antitank capability is a periodically resurfacing topic as it's commonly agreed that such facet is not a strength of the TS armies, ironically as they sport a nice anti-personnel performance.

 

I've read some consistent approaches to it based in HtH carried by Maulerfiends or Helbrutes, the latter also playing the ranged role both with multimelta + delivery method and lascannons.

 

The Ritual of the Damned book brought about renewed love for Rubrics and Scarabs with the ability to double the bolter firepower when stationary. The thing is, Helbrutes share this capability.

 

Such firepower, when combined with Inferno bolts, can even hurt tanks because of saturation: when stationary, 9 Bolter armed Rubrics put  out 18 shots which can double via strat. That's 12/24 hits. Able to dish out about 3/6 wounds to a tank, although that's not cost effective.

 

But then Helbrutes, which also benefit from the above ability can via strats both have Inferno ammo for their heavy bolters and further double their output (with limitations regarding targets but let's go). That's a natural 12 shots/8 hits per turn which via strat can be 24/16. And they are cheaper than Rubrics and Scarabs too. Also via strat a vehicle can reroll failed hits and wounds so output can get up to 11/21 hits, dealing out about from almost 2 to up to 8 wounds to a tank. Also in its anti-personnel role it would mean up to 12 wounds to MEQ.

 

In comparison, a Lascannon armed Helbrute can deal out up to 1.8/3.5 hits per turn which translates to 3/6 wounds to a tank (more or less) and comes up some 20% more expensive in points IIRC.

 

I am considering buillding a couple such Heavy Bolter Helbrutes for flank denial/softening up/deep striking purposes. Is it worth considering it can cost up to 2 CP for its best performance?

I use a Fire Raptor (depending on the list I go between missiles and lascannon but ALWAYS take Quad-Bolters) and 2 Autocannon/Heavy Bolter Preds. Works great. I play against Necrons/Custodes/Space Wolves most of the time and I'm never hurting for anti-armor punch. I run lots of Rubrics/Scarabs as well.

Edited January 24, 2021 by Xenoscry

[Prot]

Wow. Someone who uses a Fire Raptor! That's awesome and I mean it because I have one but never use it. I did for a short time with my Black Legion until it got hit hard with a very large points increase. 

 

I'd love to know how competitive you think the option is. It's also interesting you have decided the Heavy Bolter option is the way to go. 

[Lucky_Lee]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/368692-2k-fireraptor-list-works-well/?do=findComment&comment=5658328