Design Idea help

[Brother Syddraf]

With Talonmasters and now Strikemasters, seemingly filling the lieutenant role in the Ravenwing and Deathwing.

 

What ideas for a similar replacement name can you guy think of for the Greenwing Companies? Bastionmaster or Wardmaster are two I can think of

 

Also I was was thinking just Forgemaster for Ironwing Techmarine of an equal lieutenant rank too

[Aeri]

Imho Greenwich lieutenant should stay as is.

[FarFromSam]

Good question,  Wardmaster has a nice sound to it.  Let me know what you go with.

 

Aeri, don't forget, we don't follow the Codex Astartes, we don't have captains or Chapter masters, we have Masters, and Supreme Grand Masters

[Aeri]

Good point!

[Master Sheol]

Good question, Wardmaster has a nice sound to it. Let me know what you go with.

 

Aeri, don't forget, we don't follow the Codex Astartes, we don't have captains or Chapter masters, we have Masters, and Supreme Grand Masters

This

Forse example the sergeant of the Deatwlhwing knights is the Knight Master

[Angel of Solitude]

 

Good question, Wardmaster has a nice sound to it. Let me know what you go with.

 

Aeri, don't forget, we don't follow the Codex Astartes, we don't have captains or Chapter masters, we have Masters, and Supreme Grand Masters

This

Forse example the sergeant of the Deatwlhwing knights is the Knight Master

Technically, other than the 1st and 2nd Companies, we are a Codex compliant chapter - the main difference being that our Captains are called Masters. Other than that, we follow the scriptures of the Codex - including incorporating an additional two Lieutenants per company as prescribed by Bobby G.

 

In the context of having recognised elite/veteran “Knights” squads in the Death/Ravenwing, I find the idea of Talonmasters and Strikemasters a bit odd. If you need a Death/Ravenwing field commander, then this would be where your Huntsmaster and Knight Master would step up.

 

Have to say, I’m potentially more excited by the new lore in the forthcoming codex than I am with the rules!

[jbaeza94]

Good question, Wardmaster has a nice sound to it. Let me know what you go with.

 

Aeri, don't forget, we don't follow the Codex Astartes, we don't have captains or Chapter masters, we have Masters, and Supreme Grand Masters

I could have sworn our chapter masters were grandmasters, with only azrael being the supreme grand master as leader of the 1st legion. Belial and Sammael have the privilege of being the Grandmasters because they’re the leaders to all raven/deathwing equivalent company masters.

[Brother Syddraf]

I also think a name change helps highlight that yes are fill the Lieutenant position, but also other stuff, like they could be the first level of fallen awareness in a standard company.

 

At this stage I think I'll go with Wardmaster.

 

I'm doing a big replan and organise of my Dark Angels, standardizing marking, banners. I'm also sneaking in special order members (like in the Lord of the First book) with special marking on leg armour, different looking weapon and also a corpse of the enemy on some.

 

The thing I think people will find funny is I'm putting squad banners on every sergeant, scout and jump pack included.

 

My veterans will all have a tilting plate with personal heraldry and veterans that I can see as super important like company veterans, bladeguard, black knights, deathwing knights have a banner and tilt plate.

Chaplains and Librarians will have icons like books or bones.

[Master Toddius]

I've been burned so many times now with models going legacy that i don't want to make a conversion. How many of us had librarians on bike, or MoRW on bike conversion from back in the day, or Chaplain on bike conversions... GW and the Chapterhouse lawsuit has made me very conversion shy, especially since most conversions are expensive to make. 

If GW comes out with actual models for those entries, then great. 

[Brother Syddraf]

At the end of the day I want an army that i feel best about, and seeing the unique aspects of the Dark Angels not shown in mini form, I'm more than happy to play around with the fluff.

Nothing that I'm doing is rule breaking, just putting a different spin on it.

 

Thinking about Wardmaster and Wardenmaster more now, edging toward warden

 

Been doing a bit of eBay shopping for older minis/bits to fill a couple of gaps I still have in the plan, can't wait to get home and start reworking/painting now

Edited January 15, 2021 by Brother Syddraf

[WARMASTER_]

With Talonmasters and now Strikemasters, seemingly filling the lieutenant role in the Ravenwing and Deathwing.

 

What ideas for a similar replacement name can you guy think of for the Greenwing Companies? Bastionmaster or Wardmaster are two I can think of

 

Also I was was thinking just Forgemaster for Ironwing Techmarine of an equal lieutenant rank too

As a Demi company is called a Lions Blade why don’t you call him a Blademaster

[Brother Syddraf]

Blademaster, nice, thanks BladesofVengeance.

 

Works well with Bladeguard veterans, who I'll be keeping in the Greenwing

[WARMASTER_]

No worries man :)

[FarFromSam]

Jbaeza94, I think you're right. Spot on correction.

 

Angel of solitude, I don't think that legion building is codex compliant... not that we are legion building I mean, but our structure seems to have much more... discretion. And who would say otherwise?

[Gederas]

Good question, Wardmaster has a nice sound to it. Let me know what you go with.

 

Aeri, don't forget, we don't follow the Codex Astartes, we don't have captains or Chapter masters, we have Masters, and Supreme Grand Masters

I could have sworn our chapter masters were grandmasters, with only azrael being the supreme grand master as leader of the 1st legion. Belial and Sammael have the privilege of being the Grandmasters because they’re the leaders to all raven/deathwing equivalent company masters.

Chapter Masters are Grand Masters, yes.

 

The name changes (Captain > Master, Chapter Master > Grand Master) doesn't mean "not codex standard" as a large amount of chapters have their own naming conventions.

 

Also: the Dark Angels DO follow the Codex Astartes. The Fist and Second companies are allowed within the outlines of the Codex Astartes (one edition of the Space Marine codex even said that one of the Reserve companies could be all bikes), the biggest difference is the Ravenwing is a Battle Company instead of a reserve company.

 

And the Deathwing isn't even something strange by the Codex standards, it's just the Dark Angels have a metric buttload of Terminator suits so they can have their entire First Company equipped in it instead of just a few squads.

Edited January 16, 2021 by Gederas

[WARMASTER_]

@ Gederas where as you’re spot on with your Codex assessments don’t forget it’s also heavily implied that the DA have way more than the codex standard approx 1000. Deathwing and Ravenwing purposely obfuscate their number, DA fleet is around 3 times bigger than anyone else’s of codex size, also units like DW Knights, RW Black Knights, Nephillim Jet Fighters, Dark Talons, LS Vengeance and Dark shroud are all non codex standard. I’d definitely say the DA are loose followers in the extreme Edited January 17, 2021 by BladeOfVengeance

[FarFromSam]

You can't say we are compliant and then give an example of why we're not compliant.  IF we are compliant, then we are "technically" compliant which is best kind of compliant.  As the saying goes.

[Gederas]

@ Gederas where as you’re stop on with your Codex assessments don’t forget it’s also heavily implied that the DA have way more than the codex standard approx 1000. Deathwing and Ravenwing purposely obfuscate their number, DA fleet is around 3 times bigger than anyone else’s of codex size, also units like DW Knights, RW Black Knights, Nephillim Jet Fighters, Dark Talons, LS Vengeance and Dark shroud are all non codex standard. I’d definitely say the DA are loose followers in the extreme

Not denying that, merely pointing out that the Deathwing and Ravenwing as a battle company are allowed within the Codex's parameters.

 

Also the fleet is expected. The Dark Angels are a fleet-based Chapter :lol: If we want to talk about crazy fleets, look at the Space Wolves. The Dark Angels are tame by comparison.

 

You can't say we are compliant and then give an example of why we're not compliant.  IF we are compliant, then we are "technically" compliant which is best kind of compliant.  As the saying goes.

Again, minor deviations are allowed. The Dark Angels are Codex Astartes-Compliant per the parameters of how a Chapter is organized.

 

The deviations come from, as BladeOfVengance said, the Dark Angel's likelihood (out outright confirmation from their codices) of deliberately obfuscating the numbers of the Ravenwing and Deathwing.

Edited January 17, 2021 by Gederas

[FarFromSam]

Gederas, I like how you stay in character.  True inner circle deny deny deny, never break.

[jaxom]

Many codex-complaint chapters have alternative titles for their codex-complaint organization and their minor variations from it. White Scars have their Khans and Brotherhoods, Raven Guard has the Master of Shadows, Iron Hands have the Iron Fathers, etc.

[Master Sheol]

Many codex-complaint chapters have alternative titles for their codex-complaint organization and their minor variations from it. White Scars have their Khans and Brotherhoods, Raven Guard has the Master of Shadows, Iron Hands have the Iron Fathers, etc.

Iron Hands are a non Codex chapter

 

DA are non Codex too cause they appear ad a Codex Chapter on the outside but they have a peculiar organisation with non Codex Units, Companies and ranks

[WARMASTER_]

Also the fleet is expected. The Dark Angels are a fleet-based Chapter :lol: If we want to talk about crazy fleets, look at the Space Wolves. The Dark Angels are tame by comparison.

.

No doubt with the Wolves their fleet is crazy! But they’re also definitely not codex compliant and they never gave ships back after the heresy apart from to a chapter of the Wolf Brothers, I think usual estimates place them anywhere from 3000/5000 Astartes? So their fleet of

Around

 

8 Battle barges

30 strike cruisers

20 Hunter destroyers

20 + squadrons of Gladius and Nova frigates

2 Star fortresses

 

Seems reasonable to get them all about, where as us having...

 

8 Battle barges

16 Strike Cruisers

21 rapid strike vessels

The rock

 

Seems waaaay in excess of anything a 1000 Astartes codex chapter could ever require fleet based or not

 

coupled with the obfuscated numbers, six non codex standard approved units and vehicles ( DW Knights, RW Black Knights, Nephillim Jet Fighters, Dark Talons, LS Vengeance and Dark shroud) I’d still say at best we’re codex deviant more like very loose followers

 

But then again to the wider Imperium were close adherents and that’s all that matters

[jaxom]

 

Many codex-complaint chapters have alternative titles for their codex-complaint organization and their minor variations from it. White Scars have their Khans and Brotherhoods, Raven Guard has the Master of Shadows, Iron Hands have the Iron Fathers, etc.

Iron Hands are a non Codex chapter

 

DA are non Codex too cause they appear ad a Codex Chapter on the outside but they have a peculiar organisation with non Codex Units, Companies and ranks

 

 

I'm not sure where you got this notion. The Iron Hands are considered a codex-complaint chapter. Perhaps we're working from different notions of codex-complaint? The way it's been presented has changed over the years and was more strict originally.

 

2nd edition codex (Ultramarines):

Not all Chapters follow the strict organisational tactical guidelines of the Codex Astartes. Those that do are sometimes referred to as Codex Chapters. These Space Marines adhere to the Codex as the model for their organisation and identification markings.... Most Chapters do not stick so rigidly to the Codex patterns laid down for either organisation, tactical roles, or other processes. Many Chapters are largely organised according to the Codex but have slight variations, such as the Blood  Angels and Dark Angels for example.

 

Back then any deviance was enough to make a Chapter non-Codex (in rules and lore), but it was limited by the simple lack of information on other Chapters. Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Black Templar, White Scars were all sample Chapters within Codex: Ultramarines. Their lore and deviance was expanded upon in the White Dwarf Index Astartes series. It created a spectrum of compliance; Chapters like the Space Wolves being one terminus and Ultramarines the other. Like all spectra the problem becomes defining a single point of change within the minutia. Later [game] codexes danced around this by making "No True Scotsman" arguments - even the Ultramarines had Tyrannic War Veterans by that point.

 

At the present point in time, the lore describing the situation is straight-forward.

9th edition codex (emphasis added by me):

Since the Codex's original composition, the great majority of Space Marine Chapters have attempted to follow it, though none but the most reverent have done so successfully. Over the millenia is has been amended and erroneous copies have circulated, meaning some Chapters may all swear to be Codex-complaint, yet have noticeably different combat doctrines and even organisational structures.... At the core of the Codex Astartes is the organisation of the Chapter. A Codex-complaint Chapter compromises ten companies, each consisting of nominally a hundred space Marines.

 

 

The command structure, unit markings, position-names, etc are all secondary compared to the company structure. Even numbers are secondary. There's a lot of leeway in that word, "nominally," and it's how Guilliman rules-lawyered his own Codex.