Drukhari Point Changes

[Snazzy]

 

Yeah, it is a bit of a mental exercise in balancing detatchments and Raiding Party.  I look forward to the possibility of not having to do that dance in order to retain Obsessions.  I think we underestimate just how important those are.  I can't go back to Wyches without Obsessions.

Why do you play wyches? Arent they like the weakest unit in the dark eldar codex?

 

 

They punch well above their points.  Power From Pain, Combat Drugs and Cult bonuses all add up.  I think the mistake most people make is taking the bare minimum.  

[Angel of Death]

 

 

Yeah, it is a bit of a mental exercise in balancing detatchments and Raiding Party.  I look forward to the possibility of not having to do that dance in order to retain Obsessions.  I think we underestimate just how important those are.  I can't go back to Wyches without Obsessions.

Why do you play wyches? Arent they like the weakest unit in the dark eldar codex?

 

 

They punch well above their points.  Power From Pain, Combat Drugs and Cult bonuses all add up.  I think the mistake most people make is taking the bare minimum.  

 

Well. They do have their unique 4+ 'dodge' save in close combat, which is basically an invul against anything.

 

But 30 STR 3 attacks doesnt 'punch' very hard against anything much, other than termagaunts or maybe gretchin.

[Snazzy]

 

Well. They do have their unique 4+ 'dodge' save in close combat, which is basically an invul against anything.

 

But 30 STR 3 attacks doesnt 'punch' very hard against anything much, other than termagaunts or maybe gretchin.

 

 

That is just the base stats.  With Cult bonus and Combat Drug that same unit (of 10, i assume) can have 41 S4 attacks, 51 S3 attacks, 31 S5 attacks, or some weird combination bonuses from the custom Cult list.  None of those require any expenditures of additional points or CPs.  100 points.  You could do something silly like Cursed Blade and Painbringer, making your Wyches S and T 4.  They would still have the advantage over similarly stated Ork Boyz by having better movement, BS, 6++, rerolls to charge, Dodge and No Escape.

 

I really like my 10 strong units of Wyches.  The problem is that they are not really spammable the way that IG 10 mans are, nor are they well suited to be run in units larger than 10. 

[GrinNfool]

 

 

Well. They do have their unique 4+ 'dodge' save in close combat, which is basically an invul against anything.

 

But 30 STR 3 attacks doesnt 'punch' very hard against anything much, other than termagaunts or maybe gretchin.

 

 

That is just the base stats.  With Cult bonus and Combat Drug that same unit (of 10, i assume) can have 41 S4 attacks, 51 S3 attacks, 31 S5 attacks, or some weird combination bonuses from the custom Cult list.  None of those require any expenditures of additional points or CPs.  100 points.  You could do something silly like Cursed Blade and Painbringer, making your Wyches S and T 4.  They would still have the advantage over similarly stated Ork Boyz by having better movement, BS, 6++, rerolls to charge, Dodge and No Escape.

 

I really like my 10 strong units of Wyches.  The problem is that they are not really spammable the way that IG 10 mans are, nor are they well suited to be run in units larger than 10. 

 

Wyches really don't punch up, most of their use comes from holding down a unit for a turn with 4++ and a shardnet.  Honestly at 10ppm its not easy for them to earn their points back, especially since in shooting they fall over if you look at them without smiling.  About all they kill is horde, so they certainly don't punch up without buying some wargear, and even then its not anything special.   41 s4 attacks vs MEQ  will reliably kill 2 with a 53% chance to wound a 3rd.  Thats equivalent points.  In return those 5 intercessors would kill 2 wyches with ~47% chance for a 3rd.  Thats hardly punching up equivalent cost unit causing about equal damage to eachother.  So on average you kill 40 points of marines and they kill 20-30 points of wyches.  That said a shardnet changes that dynamic quick due to 2 damage but just looking at base unit here.  The marines actually offer shooting too given one round of shooting will kill 3 with 72% chnace for a 4th wych.  Obviously good terrain, and transport can help mitigate this but all I am trying to illustrate is they are only punching about equal to their cost.  Currently equipping a squad I would have at least a shardnet, and probably give the hekatrix a powersword, since it makes her s4 or 5 depending on cult/drugs.  Gives the squad some actual oomph in melee.

 

Honestly though I wouldn't worry about any of that right now, because codex is soon, and if I am honest, it better be amazing, because otherwise its looking REAL bad for DE.  After the BA, upcoming DA, and ESPECIALLY the criminally under pointed DG codex the game is looking extremely unbalanced.  I am not really sure what they can/will do so just gonna sit back and wait and see, for DE to be able to compete with those its going to require some crazy changes, so I have no interest in guessing.  Of course its GW so they could just drop the ball completely, either way I really don't see any point in worrying about how your units are now, since they will either be changed heavily, or they will be to weak to want to put on the table vs anything not bottom tier.

[MithrilForge]

 

I love Reavers, who are wych cult units. Ditto on Hellions.

 

Plus I don't play 40k the way most people do. I built two squads of 5 basic wyches- no upgrades at all, and I'm painting them as different Cults. They fight each other in the arena to earn the right to have a succubus/ wych weapons, and their reputation affects their ability to recruit new members. They give the corpses to the Haemonculi who recycle them as Wracks.

 

Once a Cult gets big enough, the Kabals will bid to take it on real space raids.

 

So essentially, my main reason for playing anything in this game is that the story requires it.

 

I said wyches; not wych-cult units like hellions and reavers.

Maybe... some people like to challenge themselves by playing something that’s not perfect or deemed the best unit to use... I like wyches cause they’re pleasing to look at and fun to paint,so therefore I’ll try my best to make them work, I refuse to not use something just because it’s not optimum...

 

Cheers Mithril

[Angel of Death]

 

 

Well. They do have their unique 4+ 'dodge' save in close combat, which is basically an invul against anything.

 

But 30 STR 3 attacks doesnt 'punch' very hard against anything much, other than termagaunts or maybe gretchin.

 

 

That is just the base stats.  With Cult bonus and Combat Drug that same unit (of 10, i assume) can have 41 S4 attacks, 51 S3 attacks, 31 S5 attacks, or some weird combination bonuses from the custom Cult list.  None of those require any expenditures of additional points or CPs.  100 points.  You could do something silly like Cursed Blade and Painbringer, making your Wyches S and T 4.  They would still have the advantage over similarly stated Ork Boyz by having better movement, BS, 6++, rerolls to charge, Dodge and No Escape.

 

I really like my 10 strong units of Wyches.  The problem is that they are not really spammable the way that IG 10 mans are, nor are they well suited to be run in units larger than 10. 

 

The only thing I can say about that is that you seem to play them because you like them. And thats OK. But remember, if you play something because you love the models or whatever, it's not going to be as viable in a competitive setting.

 

 

 

 

Well. They do have their unique 4+ 'dodge' save in close combat, which is basically an invul against anything.

 

But 30 STR 3 attacks doesnt 'punch' very hard against anything much, other than termagaunts or maybe gretchin.

 

 

That is just the base stats.  With Cult bonus and Combat Drug that same unit (of 10, i assume) can have 41 S4 attacks, 51 S3 attacks, 31 S5 attacks, or some weird combination bonuses from the custom Cult list.  None of those require any expenditures of additional points or CPs.  100 points.  You could do something silly like Cursed Blade and Painbringer, making your Wyches S and T 4.  They would still have the advantage over similarly stated Ork Boyz by having better movement, BS, 6++, rerolls to charge, Dodge and No Escape.

 

I really like my 10 strong units of Wyches.  The problem is that they are not really spammable the way that IG 10 mans are, nor are they well suited to be run in units larger than 10. 

 

Wyches really don't punch up, most of their use comes from holding down a unit for a turn with 4++ and a shardnet.  Honestly at 10ppm its not easy for them to earn their points back, especially since in shooting they fall over if you look at them without smiling.  About all they kill is horde, so they certainly don't punch up without buying some wargear, and even then its not anything special.   41 s4 attacks vs MEQ  will reliably kill 2 with a 53% chance to wound a 3rd.  Thats equivalent points.  In return those 5 intercessors would kill 2 wyches with ~47% chance for a 3rd.  Thats hardly punching up equivalent cost unit causing about equal damage to eachother.  So on average you kill 40 points of marines and they kill 20-30 points of wyches.  That said a shardnet changes that dynamic quick due to 2 damage but just looking at base unit here.  The marines actually offer shooting too given one round of shooting will kill 3 with 72% chnace for a 4th wych.  Obviously good terrain, and transport can help mitigate this but all I am trying to illustrate is they are only punching about equal to their cost.  Currently equipping a squad I would have at least a shardnet, and probably give the hekatrix a powersword, since it makes her s4 or 5 depending on cult/drugs.  Gives the squad some actual oomph in melee.

 

Honestly though I wouldn't worry about any of that right now, because codex is soon, and if I am honest, it better be amazing, because otherwise its looking REAL bad for DE.  After the BA, upcoming DA, and ESPECIALLY the criminally under pointed DG codex the game is looking extremely unbalanced.  I am not really sure what they can/will do so just gonna sit back and wait and see, for DE to be able to compete with those its going to require some crazy changes, so I have no interest in guessing.  Of course its GW so they could just drop the ball completely, either way I really don't see any point in worrying about how your units are now, since they will either be changed heavily, or they will be to weak to want to put on the table vs anything not bottom tier.

 

Yes, I agree with this. If you look at the statistics, 40 attacks isnt that much for a melee unit. Especially if everything dies as soon as the opponent strikes back.

 

[Snazzy]

I go away for a few days and return to find so many words in my mouth.

 

 

 

Wyches really don't punch up, most of their use comes from holding down a unit for a turn with 4++ and a shardnet.  Honestly at 10ppm its not easy for them to earn their points back, especially since in shooting they fall over if you look at them without smiling.  About all they kill is horde, so they certainly don't punch up without buying some wargear, and even then its not anything special.   41 s4 attacks vs MEQ  will reliably kill 2 with a 53% chance to wound a 3rd.  Thats equivalent points.  In return those 5 intercessors would kill 2 wyches with ~47% chance for a 3rd.  Thats hardly punching up equivalent cost unit causing about equal damage to eachother.  So on average you kill 40 points of marines and they kill 20-30 points of wyches.  That said a shardnet changes that dynamic quick due to 2 damage but just looking at base unit here.  The marines actually offer shooting too given one round of shooting will kill 3 with 72% chnace for a 4th wych.  Obviously good terrain, and transport can help mitigate this but all I am trying to illustrate is they are only punching about equal to their cost.  Currently equipping a squad I would have at least a shardnet, and probably give the hekatrix a powersword, since it makes her s4 or 5 depending on cult/drugs.  Gives the squad some actual oomph in melee.

 

 

 

A unit of 10 causes 3 wounds shooting with Splinter Pistols (ignoring the Plasma Grenade in this example because of how swingy it is), they charge in and then have a 54% chance of killing a 3rd marine.  If they kill 2 Intercessors the survivors will kill 1.97 Wyches.  If they kill 3 Intercessors the survivors kill 1.35 Wyches.  These units do not attack at the same time.  Even if they did, 30 points of Wyches vs 40-60 points of Intercessors is punching up.

 

 

 

 

The only thing I can say about that is that you seem to play them because you like them. And thats OK. But remember, if you play something because you love the models or whatever, it's not going to be as viable in a competitive setting.

 

I agree that i started with Wyches because i liked the unit.  Where we depart is how well they perform, which is well, in numbers.  Everyone thinks they roll over and die.  They do, in a vacuum.  Most people are not running running anti horde shooting, because most people aren't running hordes.  ObSec only matters when you run into a unit that has ObSec and more models, which is convenient because Wyches are able to kill hordes really well.  What they can't, or shouldn't kill in one turn of melee they lock and tarpit.  It is easier to make Wyches kill things with their combination of dugs and Cult bonuses than it is to make them survive enemy attacks in melee.  All of their strengths add up

 

All that said, i run the bulk of my Wyches in a custom detachment with Slashing Impact and Berserk Fugue.  This ups their aggression against MEQs to 4.11 wounds in the melee phase (using S4 from Grave Lotus) and 3.33 Mortal Wounds on the charge.  It seems like a minor increase, but 4 dead MEQs for 100 points works for me when they will lock down the survivor.

[ThePenitentOne]

 

 

All that said, i run the bulk of my Wyches in a custom detachment with Slashing Impact and Berserk Fugue.  This ups their aggression against MEQs to 4.11 wounds in the melee phase (using S4 from Grave Lotus) and 3.33 Mortal Wounds on the charge.  It seems like a minor increase, but 4 dead MEQs for 100 points works for me when they will lock down the survivor.

 

I love Slashing Impact- glad to hear it works in practice.

 

I'm doing a weird Crusade/ Organic Growth thing with my DE, so I need two Cults to compete against each other in the arena. As they grow, they increase their odds of being chosen for realspace raids. Those PA Obsessions were a really good tool for that kinda thing. Damn, I can't wait for this dex!

 

I wonder how much of our existing goodies survive the cut.

Edited February 3, 2021 by ThePenitentOne

[Snazzy]

Slashing Impact does work, although it works best on units that can dictate terms of movement.  One of the boons of 10 ppm Reavers is that they make for effective anti-Gravis units with Slashing Impact and Grav Talons.  There are some other reasons for Slashing Impact, like causing the Mortal Wounds in the Charge Phase to combat things like the Void Dragon and Grazghull having the 3 wounds per phase limit.  Reavers are so good now... even without upgrades.  

 

But, the winner for this is still Wracks using Dark Harvest.  They are cheaper and Dark Harvest has fewer restrictions than Slashing Impact.