Possible incoming changes to CSM wargear selection

[Marshal Loss]

The new Death Guard codex (which is pretty great, for the record) likely presages some big incoming changes for us, my fellow spiky marines.

 

Wargear selection is mostly done by the box now, e.g. the Blightlord Terminator box comes with 1x combi-plasma 1x combi-flamer 1x combi-melta: you can take one of each per 5 models. Squads with 10x of a particular variant are dead as the dodo. I'd expect something similar to be put in place for CSM + CSM Terminator squads when we get our codex (which would be a bit strange, given that there are uneven numbers of combi-weapon parts, but GW is no stranger to strange).

 

 

This might also open up some other interesting weapon options: a Plague Marine squad, for example, can take more special weapons in a 10 man squad than they could before:

 

 

It's an interesting change, and thought it was worth a public PSA just in case folks are in the midst of hunting down masses of combi-plasma parts for a Terminator unit or something like that: it would probably be best either magnetising your weapon choices or holding off for now.

 

edit: as Dark Legionnare pointed out on another topic in the DG subforum, there may well be exceptions (Havocs would be an obvious choice).

 

It's also worth pointing out that new builds will become possible that weren't possible before: you can take an insane number of special weapons in a 10 man PM squad. Might well have a scenario where vanilla SM units can take 2x heavy and 2x special in a 10 man unit.

Edited January 16, 2021 by Marshal Loss

[Kain Mor]

If this is true it’s going to be incredibly frustrating.

[Syrakul]

If CSM could do that (2 special 2xheavy or something) I'd be happy, I always thought CSM should demonstrate their divergence to SM by having more intense personal equipment. Either the full 10 man legion squads with special/heavy weapons spread out into the mobs or individual CSM would salvage the guns in their 10,000 years (give or take) of service.

Now that there is a clear distinction between Havocs and CSM stat wise, there will still be a place for them besides.

[Kain Mor]

You’ll be happy until you’re only allowed one flamer, one plasma gun, one heavy Bolter, and one melta gun as a legal loadout. Completely incompatible loadouts.

Or havocs with 1 chaingun, 2 autocannons and 2 heavy Bolters as a “Havoc Reaper Squad” and a “Havoc Hunter Squad” is 2 missile launchers, 2 lascannons and an autocannon.

[BrainFireBob]

This is potentially infuriating. This would kill dual LC squads for CSM terminators, for one thing- one pair in the box- and for another, it makes a lot of historic loadouts disappear.

 

Stupid move. This has to be driven by all the negative feedback they received over things like the single chainaxe- artificial scarcity deliberately created- by someone in marketing. Just include the options.

 

Can a squad of Blightlords still all take axes? That was also a shortage in the kit.

[Marshal Loss]

Can a squad of Blightlords still all take axes? That was also a shortage in the kit.

Yep. It's bizarre

[Syrakul]

You’ll be happy until you’re only allowed one flamer, one plasma gun, one heavy Bolter, and one melta gun as a legal loadout. Completely incompatible loadouts.

Or havocs with 1 chaingun, 2 autocannons and 2 heavy Bolters as a “Havoc Reaper Squad” and a “Havoc Hunter Squad” is 2 missile launchers, 2 lascannons and an autocannon.

You are right that it could go horribly in that direction but thats not what the plague marine profile suggests. The worst case I can see is losing options not currently in plastic for csm such as lascannons, even then its in the havoc kit so that would unusually restrictive.

Also looking at options in SM indicates that wouldn't go away.

[BrainFireBob]

It's typical GW, though. Make a change like this, generally buff the army, and then use sales to "determine" whether this kind of restriction is "problematic."

 

"We restricted Blightlords to the kit, but made them way better- obviously people love the restriction! Let's do that everywhere without unit buffing and be confused when customers are unhappy!"

 

Watched them do this for decades now.

 

Edit: On both sides- give us something players have been screaming for alongside a huge nerf, and conclude that they overestimated demand for the change. I've long thought that was behind much of their mid edition course changes

Edited January 16, 2021 by BrainFireBob

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

The new Death Guard codex (which is pretty great, for the record) likely presages some big incoming changes for us, my fellow spiky marines.

 

Wargear selection is mostly done by the box now, e.g. the Blightlord Terminator box comes with 1x combi-plasma 1x combi-flamer 1x combi-melta: you can take one of each per 5 models. Squads with 10x of a particular variant are dead as the dodo. I'd expect something similar to be put in place for CSM + CSM Terminator squads when we get our codex (which would be a bit strange, given that there are uneven numbers of combi-weapon parts, but GW is no stranger to strange).

 

 

This might also open up some other interesting weapon options: a Plague Marine squad, for example, can take more special weapons in a 10 man squad than they could before:

 

 

It's an interesting change, and thought it was worth a public PSA just in case folks are in the midst of hunting down masses of combi-plasma parts for a Terminator unit or something like that: it would probably be best either magnetising your weapon choices or holding off for now.

 

edit: as Dark Legionnare pointed out on another topic in the DG subforum, there may well be exceptions (Havocs would be an obvious choice).

 

It's also worth pointing out that new builds will become possible that weren't possible before: you can take an insane number of special weapons in a 10 man PM squad. Might well have a scenario where vanilla SM units can take 2x heavy and 2x special in a 10 man unit.

Jeez... what an awful change.  I thought we were supposed to have a more stream lined gaming experience?  Not sure how that is possible if you got a 7 man unit of plague marines each a different weapon.  

[MegaVolt87]

I think the champ will still get a pick, then one in five for combi's. So two, then one heavy on top of that for 5 man CSM termi's. I think those kind of changes are more similar to HH loadouts ?

[Maschinenpriester]

I saw on the death guard codex leaks tread that they can only take one lord/prince per detatchment and the wings for the prince only give +2" movement. Any thoughts on this. Assuming we will get the same treatment with a new Codex this seems to be aiming on the minimization of Re rolls maybe? And also a nerf for the Daemon Prince I guess.

[Closet Skeleton]

Stupid move. This has to be driven by all the negative feedback they received over things like the single chainaxe- artificial scarcity deliberately created- by someone in marketing. Just include the options.

 

That's not how the company is structured, marketing has no power over sprue design. Its possible a rules guy knew that making chain-axes cheap for terminators would lead to minmaxers seeking extra chainaxes but they really don't seem to think that way.

 

Including all possible options in the kit is logistically problematic, its not artificial scarcity.

 

 

I saw on the death guard codex leaks tread that they can only take one lord/prince per detatchment and the wings for the prince only give +2" movement. Any thoughts on this. Assuming we will get the same treatment with a new Codex this seems to be aiming on the minimization of Re rolls maybe? And also a nerf for the Daemon Prince I guess.

 

Its possible they just decided Nurgle princes should be slower, we will have to wait and see.

 

Its clear that 8th ed was badly designed in that they just made HQ choices more viable than units while giving you free reign to just take HQs instead of units, that will be what they're reacting to with these fluff based changes (which existed in 8th but were unfairly limited to Tau).

 

A daemon prince is the end goal of most chaos warlords, a demigod who rules an entire planet of daemons. Having them be spammed and more common on the battlefield than dreadnoughts was rediculous.

 

I really don't think daemon princes are nerfed. Being a bit slower isn't a big deal, it just means fire and forget expendable princes aren't viable. I'm pretty sure there are new daemon prince builds that can obliterate any 8th ed equivilant.

Edited January 17, 2021 by Closet Skeleton

[BrainFireBob]

 

 

Stupid move. This has to be driven by all the negative feedback they received over things like the single chainaxe- artificial scarcity deliberately created- by someone in marketing. Just include the options.

That's not how the company is structured, marketing has no power over sprue design. Its possible a rules guy knew that making chain-axes cheap for terminators would lead to minmaxers seeking extra chainaxes but they really don't seem to think that way.

 

Including all possible options in the kit is logistically problematic, its not artificial scarcity.

 

I saw on the death guard codex leaks tread that they can only take one lord/prince per detatchment and the wings for the prince only give +2" movement. Any thoughts on this. Assuming we will get the same treatment with a new Codex this seems to be aiming on the minimization of Re rolls maybe? And also a nerf for the Daemon Prince I guess.

Its possible they just decided Nurgle princes should be slower, we will have to wait and see.

 

Its clear that 8th ed was badly designed in that they just made HQ choices more viable than units while giving you free reign to just take HQs instead of units, that will be what they're reacting to with these fluff based changes (which existed in 8th but were unfairly limited to Tau).

 

A daemon prince is the end goal of most chaos warlords, a demigod who rules an entire planet of daemons. Having them be spammed and more common on the battlefield than dreadnoughts was rediculous.

 

I really don't think daemon princes are nerfed. Being a bit slower isn't a big deal, it just means fire and forget expendable princes aren't viable. I'm pretty sure there are new daemon prince builds that can obliterate any 8th ed equivilant.

Closet Skeleton, if marketing had no power over sprue design, the new Havocs, which introduced the chaincannon, would not have had two of each weapon except the singular chaincannon.

 

The recut Devs wouldn't have had 2 of each weapon- except the brand new gravcannon.

 

And finally adding combiplasma to the CSM terminator kit, after two decades of the option, wouldn't have been a single combiplasma when the other two combis were available in pairs.

 

This is a longstanding GW move, so repeated it cannot be anything but deliberate artificial scarcity.

Edited January 17, 2021 by BrainFireBob

[Jings]

I really cannot overstate how much I hate this change. We finally get our second wound, and now it seems GW are punishing us for their own poorly designed kit options because idiots don't know how to convert. 

 

Whatever moron is behind these decisions needs sacked immediately. 

[MegaVolt87]

Thinking about it more, I think this will be only a thing for the 4 gods armies as far as unit loadouts. None of this hit SM really as far as I can tell. DG got hit with this for a few reasons I think. Their rules are majorly buffed, so having such a lack of weapon options is a way to balance it out. They even cut the squad size to ten to make sure for PM's. Also following the box, added benefit of making CSM accessible to noobs, DG have been our front end poster boys like UM's. Whole range was plastic, options but not too many to confuse the new people to chaos.  Lord restrictions/ force org ones are quite likely, as will the death of CSM cultists. CSM won't draw in new players if they are a worse SM rules wise, GW can give us all the nice new kits they like but everyone else knows better. Heck I even told a new player back in early 8th to play Tau instead of CSM. They enjoyed themselves a lot, I bet he would of quit after playing CSM as a starter army. 

[Cheex]

I'm a little worried for our terminators, but also cautiously hopeful that it won't affect us.

 

After all, we've had no less than three different kits for Terminators - one of which (2nd edition metals) didn't even have a "guaranteed" loadout; you were supplied with a more-or-less random assortment of wargear, IIRC. Blightlords, on the other hand, have only ever had one kit so it makes more sense to limit them.

 

Plague Marines are slightly different since they've had a kit previously, but I think the new datasheet still allows the old kit to be legal. Just going from memory, though.

 

Still, there's a non-zero chance that GW will add this limitation to us. It would be extremely disappointing if they do.

[Gederas]

If this goes through, my Night Lords will never be played in 9th Edition.

 

I just got finished making a Terminator squad of all Lightning Claw+Combi-Flamers, and my three finished squads of 10x basic Chaos Marines have loadouts that'd become illegal through this (Combi-Bolter on Champ, two Chaincannons)

[McElMcNinja]

Well at least they didn’t limit the weapon load out of cultist to for 5 models in the unit, 3 have to be autoguns and 2 have to be autopistols.

[Cheex]

Well at least they didn’t limit the weapon load out of cultist to for 5 models in the unit, 3 have to be autoguns and 2 have to be autopistols.

 

Likewise, they haven't limited the power-armoured Chaos Lord to just a plasma pistol and thunder hammer.

[Gederas]

Well at least they didn’t limit the weapon load out of cultist to for 5 models in the unit, 3 have to be autoguns and 2 have to be autopistols.

Likewise, they haven't limited the power-armoured Chaos Lord to just a plasma pistol and thunder hammer.

Yet

[MegaVolt87]

I thought you guys would appreciate this, not mine found on reddit. Susinctly describes the 40k hobby right now haha- (fixed some spellings)

 

 

It is the 9th Edition. For more than a hundred weeks, James Workshop has sat immobile on the Plastic Throne of Nottingham, England. He is the Master of Marines by the will of the consumers, and master of a million releases by the might of his inexhaustible Primaris. He is a rotting carcass writhing invisibly with power from the Dark Edition of Rogue Trader. He is the Sunday Lord of the Previews for whom a thousand Imperial Armour Compendium-only units are sacrificed every day, so that he may never truly die.

 

 

Yet even in his deathless state, the CEO continues his eternal vigilance. Mighty carrying cases cross the Marines-infested miasma of the Meta, the only route between distant tournaments, their way lit by the Codex, the psychic manifestation of the CEO's releases. Vast Marines give battle in his name on uncounted boards. Greatest amongst his soldiers are the Primaris Astartes, the Primaris Marines, bio-engineered super-warriors. Their comrades in arms are none, for their releases are endless. But for all their multitudes, they are barely enough to hold off the ever-present threat from Death Guard releases - and worse.

 

 

To be a Hobbyist player in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of multipose and kitbashing, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of different factions with varied playstyles, for in the grim dark future there is only Marines. There is no other factions amongst the stars, only an eternity of Primaris Marines, and the laughter of thirsting shareholders.

[McElMcNinja]

Mega gets it.

[Castle Wolfenstein]

I'm a little worried for our terminators, but also cautiously hopeful that it won't affect us.

 

After all, we've had no less than three different kits for Terminators - one of which (2nd edition metals) didn't even have a "guaranteed" loadout; you were supplied with a more-or-less random assortment of wargear, IIRC. Blightlords, on the other hand, have only ever had one kit so it makes more sense to limit them.

 

Plague Marines are slightly different since they've had a kit previously, but I think the new datasheet still allows the old kit to be legal. Just going from memory, though.

 

Still, there's a non-zero chance that GW will add this limitation to us. It would be extremely disappointing if they do.

 

I'm also cautiously optimistic. Wolf guard terminators have more in common with chaos terminators than do blightlords. The new space wolf supplement still allows wolf guard terminators to spam combi weapons.

 

Also I just ordered 10 combi plasma halves and 10 combi melta halves last week so I need that to not be a giant waste of money...

[Cheex]

 

Well at least they didn’t limit the weapon load out of cultist to for 5 models in the unit, 3 have to be autoguns and 2 have to be autopistols.

Likewise, they haven't limited the power-armoured Chaos Lord to just a plasma pistol and thunder hammer.

Yet

 

To be clear, I was talking about DG Chaos Lords, who seem to have similar weapon options to CSM though it's hard to read in the reviews.

[Xenith]

This is crazy, and a real step backwards. Or forwards. It seems like a move to cut down bitz-resellers who could charge an arm and a leg for a single in-demand part.