DG Frustrations

[Iron Sage]

After doing some list constructions, I seem to always be spending 4-5 CP pre game. On top of that it’s a very CP hungry army, on the flip side there are some good combos. Not having to blast your opponents of the table helps, but come later rounds it’s going to hurt. We are really going to have to weigh everything before we act.

I can deal with the load out issues in my squads, cuz frankly I never invested too much in shooting. I do have to cut some arms off and remodel, not a huge deal for me as it’s part of the hobby I enjoy. I had 20 possessed, probably won’t use more then 10 now so they will be sold. I’ve had spawn collecting dust for a long time, I’m glad I get to field them now. Like most armies when a new codex comes out, things change. I’ve had a sorcerer in terminator armor sitting in the box forever, now I have a reason to put him together. I am glad I only ever painted 10 cultists, they seem like a waste of space in the codex. I almost bought a Landraider, glad I waited. I do have empathy for those who lost more then I did.

But, barring some horrible FAQ, I like what I have and see us in a better spot. SMs beware, along with others as they have 2 or 3 armies they have to prepare for. Several of my games I’ve been told if I was a SM army they would have done better.

Final thought, if you’re dealt limes make margaritas.

I got an ancient metal daemon prince still in the box. Then I have broken off the wings of the ancient Imrik High Elf dragon rider model from the 90s. Need a larger base for the daemon prince but it will be an nice hobby project to work with such an ancient metal model.

A bit surprised that you want to sell off your possessed now that they are much improved, but I reckon 2 units of them may be too much for most lists.

 

By the way, would love to play a TT simulator game with you one day, I noticed you mentioned that in another post. Never tried it, so would probably be a more hassle for me, but the program is cheap and getting to play real life games isn't that easy.

 

And yeah, my Land Raider, which is one beautiful model if I dare to say so, will probably collect dust in most games like my cultists will. A shame, but I can't remember GW managing to release a codex without 2-3 duds. And this time, we don't have many of them I reckon.

[L30n1d4s]

If I could make just a few tweaks to the Codex, here is what they would be:

 

1 - Daemon Prince loses "Infernal Jealousy," but gains another rule called "Annointed of Nurgle," which limits them to one per detachment (so you can only have one DP per detachment and one "Infernal Jealousy" model per detachment, but you can have one of both of them at the same time).

 

2 - Change Tallyman from an Elite to a HQ option (he is kind of/sort of the DG Chaplain type unit); now you have another option besides Sorcerors to fill out the HQ slots on top of DP and "Infernal Jealousy" models.

 

3 - Let Possessed auto-advance 6" (to make up for them now being more difficult to use with transports)

 

4 - Give DG Land Raiders, Rhinos, Predators, and Defilers the option to upgrade to Disgustingly Resilient for 1 CP pre-game.

 

5 - Let Plague Marines and Blightlords take as many/as few combi-weapons and special melee weapons as they want (other weapons could still be locked in at 1 per 5 models)

 

6 - Reduce the cost of all the Deadly Pathogens to 10 points.

 

With those few tweaks, I think the Codex would be just amazing across the board, with almost no "let down" areas to it.

Edited January 21, 2021 by L30n1d4s

[Iron Sage]

Yeah, the pathogens are really too expensive to see much use unfortunately. As it stands now, it is worth buying a pathogen only for a very select few characters and units.  Possibly on a death shroud champion, maybe another character with 5 + attacks. On characters with 4 attack models it seems too expensive though .

Edited January 21, 2021 by Iron Sage

[McElMcNinja]

I just bought a box of PMs and Possessed to make some custom Possessed, that was before I knew about the new limit. I am still going to make that unit and assume I won’t run more then 10 at a time.

I also bought another DP, I have a conversion I’ve been wanting to do for that as well. Again, before I knew about the new restrictions. Does it peeve me off, heck yes! But that’s what eBay is for. Well eBay and I just finished a commission army of DG for a friend and he is wanting some of my stuff so I should at least break even.

I’ve been playing since Rogue Trader so I have lots of stuff, but I like converting and painting. So when they change my army I pull old stuff out and get to play with it again. Pre-8th I had loaded up with melta guns, used them once since 8th. Unloading those is a little tougher, so looks like they will be sitting awhile longer.

Edited January 21, 2021 by McElMcNinja

[Ishagu]

Out of curiosity, to the people complaining, how many games have you played with the new book?

 

I ask because the general opinion from widely known sources is that the new codex is good. Different in many rules, but good.

 

I have two close friends who play DG, one of them competitively, and both are thrilled with the codex. I have a lot of interest in this army because I face it on a regular basis (when not in lockdown, obv.). From what I see some of the rules and units are certainly impressive.

[Karhedron]

After doing some list constructions, I seem to always be spending 4-5 CP pre game. On top of that it’s a very CP hungry army, on the flip side there are some good combos. Not having to blast your opponents of the table helps, but come later rounds it’s going to hurt. We are really going to have to weigh everything before we act.

 

I have noticed the same thing with lists built around the SM Codex (I play BAs and SWs). I find I am generally maxing out on WLTs and Relics and spending about twice as many CPs pre-game as I was in 8th.

 

However there are some flip sides to this. The extra +1CP every turn means I find myself running short of CPs less (although the fact that Transhuman Physiology now only applies to Primaris saves me some there :D). Spending CPs pre-game is less flexible but baked-in abilities seem overall to be better value than stratagems now. Previously in 8th edition, I would expect to dump half my CPs pumping up Captain Smash to take down big threats. Since that is no longer an option, I tend to save CPs there which leaves room for more situational and reactive stratagems.

 

The bottom line is that most of us have got less experience playing 9th than we would like so it is hard to tell how CPs will balance out in the long run. But my impression so far is that CPs actually last slightly better in 9th. Many "must have" strats have gone and their place is taken by pre-game strats that bake-in certain abilities (many SM WLTs seem to have been buffed over their 8th edition incarnations). Instead, stratagems are useful for dealing with specific scenarios rather than building your army around specific combos to pump up a single unit.

[L30n1d4s]

Quite a good read here, and one that provides a positive (but I think, realistic) view of the Codex:

 

 

https://www.goonhammer.com/playing-death-guard-with-the-new-codex/

[Ishagu]

This is the full review:

 

https://www.goonhammer.com/9th-edition-codex-death-guard-the-goonhammer-review/

[McElMcNinja]

I was a little confused reading that, the first half of their review they say take lots of troops, then you get down to their lists and only 1 of the 3 have any. Still a good read, some interesting takes on things.

[L30n1d4s]

Lol, yes I had that thought too (i.e Where are all the Troops they talked about?!), but even so, the points they make are still solid and I found their insights quite helpful.

[Special Officer Doofy]

It was a weird read for sure. Don talked about Troops alot and how they are not a gunline army and his lists have no troops and one is a mostly shooty heavy support. But got to love Don, the dude that brought like 10 PBC in one list before haha.

[Bulwyf]

Their lists make no sense in relation to the advise they literally just gave in the article. Run plenty of PM and termies...and every list we showcase has ZERO termies and no PM except for one list. 

 

I'm assuming they did it to show different ways of list building within the codex but you'd think they would have put in some "standard" lists to run or expect to see with the codex.

 

Personally I'm going to have one Morty list and one without him. Both will have PM and as much as I can no zombies. I didn't like bringing them in  8th and I'm glad I don't need them in 9th.

[Iron Sage]

The lists they came up with are "fun concepts" as they say though. I think making lists where the vast majority of models are Marines, Blightlords and Mortarion, is maybe "easy", and assume that's why they offered these lists. The second one looks quite interesting (the first one has way too much Forge World to be very interesting to me personally).

[jgascoine011]

Out of curiosity, to the people complaining, how many games have you played with the new book?

 

I ask because the general opinion from widely known sources is that the new codex is good. Different in many rules, but good.

 

I have two close friends who play DG, one of them competitively, and both are thrilled with the codex. I have a lot of interest in this army because I face it on a regular basis (when not in lockdown, obv.). From what I see some of the rules and units are certainly impressive.

 

I dont think anyone is saying its a bad codex. Its just some of the decissions baffle me and with already such a limited selection of units, the enhanced rescrtiction are too punishing and push you into a very certain list build, generally centred around mortarion that fixes a lot of the issues with DG.

 

I will just quickly summerise my annoyances.

1) Auras for the DG Lords are just too pathetic to justify taking over a daemon prince. This is a shame because I would love to run a LoC or LoV.

2) Either give "chaos" units DR or remove them from the codex. Nobody is going to take a defiler, preditor, LR etc because the PBC is there. As such in reality you have 1 heavy support option.

3) Not having core on so many units is also so punishing. I think preditors etc should be core in the CSM codex but not in DG. But all DG units should of had core.

4) There are a few relics/stratagems/WLT that will be taken/used....but the majority will just never see play, especially with the relics where so many of them are character specific.

5) The secondary objectives are pants and apart from in maybe some extreme cirumstances will never be played, especially as the standard 2ndry objectives are actually pretty good for DG, especially WWSWF which i think will be taken in nearly every game.

[jgascoine011]

1. Exactly how are the auras pathetic? I’d like to know how you are looking at these rules.

 

2. I like defilers in the new codex. Can’t say “no one will take them” because I’m at least one person who will.

 

3. Why would they make every unit core? It defeats the purpose of core being a new rule. It’s not punishing.

 

4. How is some relics not being taken any different from literally every other codex ever made?

 

5. At least two objectives are good to use, with one being highly achievable with DGs play style. Also, if you don’t like the DG secondaries, you can, as you put it, simply use the default secondaries.

 

1. As I have already said, they pretty much do nothing.

The LoV: 6s to wound do an additional AP (ok its something)...plague weapons (ok it kind of limits its use)...on core units (ok its really limiting its use)...when shooting (ok so its garbage)

The LoC: This is probably the best out of the generic chaos lord, LoV and LoC, but you need to take the +6" to contagion power, and you need to hope to get it off, otherwise its kind of pointless, but yes, it can be good in some specific situations.

 

2. Yea sure some people will take cultists and land raiders too, and give bloat drones plague spitters...doesnt mean its a decent choice. So putting in that defiler means that your opponent now has something to shoot all those multi-damage shots at.

 

3. Make actual DG units core. Honestly its a stupid new rule that as I said previously was designed to balance out SM and doesnt really make much sense, especially when you see the ammount of stuff that got core in the SM codex.

 

4. Yea I agree, but other codex's dont have half of their relics being only allowed to be taken on certain units. However, i have another look at them and actually there are some decent ones in there.

 

5. Which one is good????? As i said before, failing a Ld check happens in maybe 1 in 10 games. Failing 5 is so laughable.

The other one where you need to take D3 MW or roll a 4+, to get 3 VP, with infantry only. You may, in a few games get 9 VP, but getting any more would be near impossible. Your opponent would have to be a total moron to allow it. 

And finally the last one its terrible because you will either score max points if you are winning, or absolutly nothing if you are loosing.

[Ishagu]

Predators and most vehicles aren't core in any of the new 9th edition books?

[Azekai]

Predators and most vehicles aren't core in any of the new 9th edition books?

Yes, because of how bonkers space marines were granting rerolls to all their units in 8th (other factions had buffs too but marines got the fatty rerolls). In 9th they have clearly backtracked on that, even though other factions weren’t offenders. Certainly not death guard.

Edited January 22, 2021 by Azekai

[Ishagu]

Marine re rolls were nerfed time and again and the game is vastly different now from 8th when armies could sit back and shoot.

 

40k is now a mid-range, objective focused game played on smaller tables with more impactful cover rules, and Death Guard have all the tools to excel in this context.

[tangoalphatwo]

Just finished my first 10 man squad tonight. Bolters, plasma, and blightlaunchers. I have a second squad primed and ready to paint almost the exact same set up. I have a a third squad assembled and ready to spray... However, this third squad is all close combat oriented. Plague knives, flails, axes, icon and the like. With the new codex I can’t do that can I? (On a side note, the icon hero series 3 mini isn’t legal under the new codex)

 

So my question is, so I slit them up into other squads now? And make two half bolter and half cc? I’m don’t care about competitiveness, but at least wanna be legal. Thoughts?

[Special Officer Doofy]

2. Yea sure some people will take cultists and land raiders too, and give bloat drones plague spitters...doesnt mean its a decent choice.

 

I like bloat drones with spitters. They are the best at clearing T3 troops off objectives. And now they are the cheapest. They also have the utility of getting close to give off the -1T aura without tying the unit up so others can shoot. The blender Drone can't do that. Also the spitters can charge after and have 4 probe attacks. My main opponent is admech, they just melt skitarii.

 

Certain things got nerfed, like Votlw and DR, but there is so much good in the book still. Almost every unit in the codex got buffed. They all give -1T, which is huge!

 

Mortarion - don't need to explain.

 

Typhus - more attacks, two weapon profiles, reroll 1's for core now. Gained movement and advance rolls.

 

LoC - lost the dumb MW aura for a larger contagion aura. Also got reroll 1's. Gained movement and advance rolls.

 

Malignant plaguecaster - MW went from 7" to 12" and the staff got 1 more strength

 

Chaos lords and sorcs - now T5 with DR

 

Deathshroud - two weapon profiles and went WS2+. 3W too. Also 2D instead of d3. Gained movement and advance rolls. Kept 4++.

 

Blightlords - 3W. With Axes and the -1T they wound marines on 2+ reroll 1's. Gained movement and advance rolls. Kept 4++

 

Helbrutes - finally got -1D, which is the new DR anyways.

 

Possessed - better attacks, T5, got DR and plague weapon

 

Noxious Blightbringer - aura improvement and reduces enemy psychic tests

 

Tallyman - changed from a roll of 7 to a roll of 7+

 

Plague surgeon - instead of rerolling a 1, he now gives a 6+++

 

Plague marines - 2W now, get the extra attack all the time instead of Hateful. 5 man squads got a wargear nerf but 10 man squads can take much more now

 

Poxwalkers - went from 5+++ to 6+++ but gain natural T4 and are ws4+ full time. Pretty cheap again too

 

Bloat drones - lost the bracket, point reduction on the spitters, and the other weapons are now hitting on 3+ (12 blender attacks too!)

 

Haulers - ws/bs3+ and two melta shots now

 

Chaos spawn - 2d3 attacks now

 

PBC - 3+ to hit, ectoplasm is 3+d3 damage, mortar went to 2. Love it.

 

Even though defilers can't get DR they can still shoot in combat with no penalty, and there is a strat to even shoot blast weapons while in melee.

 

So yeah, our best strats of 8th got nerfed. But now we have a lot better strats overall instead of like 3 good ones and trash. The core change and chaos lord limit was going to happen regardless just like marines. The mono bonus is amazing. I love it. So useful. The legion trait is cool too. I'm still in the party that overall this codex is stronger.

Edited January 22, 2021 by Putrid Choir

[Special Officer Doofy]

Just finished my first 10 man squad tonight. Bolters, plasma, and blightlaunchers. I have a second squad primed and ready to paint almost the exact same set up. I have a a third squad assembled and ready to spray... However, this third squad is all close combat oriented. Plague knives, flails, axes, icon and the like. With the new codex I can’t do that can I? (On a side note, the icon hero series 3 mini isn’t legal under the new codex)

 

So my question is, so I slit them up into other squads now? And make two half bolter and half cc? I’m don’t care about competitiveness, but at least wanna be legal. Thoughts?

For a 10 man melee squad you can do champ with fist, 2x flail, 2x cleaver, 2x double knives, 2x axe and knife, and a mace and knife guy. They have a strat to give damage spilling like the flails used to, so that makes the cleaver and mace good even against 1W stuff. What was your exact loadout on the melee squad?

Edited January 22, 2021 by Putrid Choir

[Iron Sage]

 

Just finished my first 10 man squad tonight. Bolters, plasma, and blightlaunchers. I have a second squad primed and ready to paint almost the exact same set up. I have a a third squad assembled and ready to spray... However, this third squad is all close combat oriented. Plague knives, flails, axes, icon and the like. With the new codex I can’t do that can I? (On a side note, the icon hero series 3 mini isn’t legal under the new codex)

 

So my question is, so I slit them up into other squads now? And make two half bolter and half cc? I’m don’t care about competitiveness, but at least wanna be legal. Thoughts?

For a 10 man melee squad you can do champ with fist, 2x flail, 2x cleaver, 2x double knives, 2x axe and knife, and a mace and knife guy. They have a strat to give damage spilling like the flails used to, so that makes the cleaver and mace good even against 1W stuff. What was your exact loadout on the melee squad?

 

Take a picture, or never post again (not that I want to get rid of you, lol). Today is Nurgle's Day until you post again and ruin the perfected numbers !

Edited January 22, 2021 by Iron Sage

[Ishagu]

 

2. Yea sure some people will take cultists and land raiders too, and give bloat drones plague spitters...doesnt mean its a decent choice.

 

I like bloat drones with spitters. They are the best at clearing T3 troops off objectives. And now they are the cheapest. They also have the utility of getting close to give off the -1T aura without tying the unit up so others can shoot. The blender Drone can't do that. Also the spitters can charge after and have 4 probe attacks. My main opponent is admech, they just melt skitarii.

 

Certain things got nerfed, like Votlw and DR, but there is so much good in the book still. Almost every unit in the codex got buffed. They all give -1T, which is huge!

 

Mortarion - don't need to explain.

 

Typhus - more attacks, two weapon profiles, reroll 1's for core now. Gained movement and advance rolls.

 

LoC - lost the dumb MW aura for a larger contagion aura. Also got reroll 1's. Gained movement and advance rolls.

 

Malignant plaguecaster - MW went from 7" to 12" and the staff got 1 more strength

 

Chaos lords and sorcs - now T5 with DR

 

Deathshroud - two weapon profiles and went WS2+. 3W too. Also 2D instead of d3. Gained movement and advance rolls. Kept 4++.

 

Blightlords - 3W. With Axes and the -1T they wound marines on 2+ reroll 1's. Gained movement and advance rolls. Kept 4++

 

Helbrutes - finally got -1D, which is the new DR anyways.

 

Possessed - better attacks, T5, got DR and plague weapon

 

Noxious Blightbringer - aura improvement and reduces enemy psychic tests

 

Tallyman - changed from a roll of 7 to a roll of 7+

 

Plague surgeon - instead of rerolling a 1, he now gives a 6+++

 

Plague marines - 2W now, get the extra attack all the time instead of Hateful. 5 man squads got a wargear nerf but 10 man squads can take much more now

 

Poxwalkers - went from 5+++ to 6+++ but gain natural T4 and are ws4+ full time. Pretty cheap again too

 

Bloat drones - lost the bracket, point reduction on the spitters, and the other weapons are now hitting on 3+ (12 blender attacks too!)

 

Haulers - ws/bs3+ and two melta shots now

 

Chaos spawn - 2d3 attacks now

 

PBC - 3+ to hit, ectoplasm is 3+d3 damage, mortar went to 2. Love it.

 

Even though defilers can't get DR they can still shoot in combat with no penalty, and there is a strat to even shoot blast weapons while in melee.

 

So yeah, our best strats of 8th got nerfed. But now we have a lot better strats overall instead of like 3 good ones and trash. The core change and chaos lord limit was going to happen regardless just like marines. The mono bonus is amazing. I love it. So useful. The legion trait is cool too. I'm still in the party that overall this codex is stronger.

Unfortunately it's commonplace for elements of the hobby community to complain about everything, ignoring the positives and focusing only on the negatives.

 

Complaint fetish lol

[jgascoine011]

 

2. Yea sure some people will take cultists and land raiders too, and give bloat drones plague spitters...doesnt mean its a decent choice.

I like bloat drones with spitters. They are the best at clearing T3 troops off objectives. And now they are the cheapest. They also have the utility of getting close to give off the -1T aura without tying the unit up so others can shoot. The blender Drone can't do that. Also the spitters can charge after and have 4 probe attacks. My main opponent is admech, they just melt skitarii.

 

Certain things got nerfed, like Votlw and DR, but there is so much good in the book still. Almost every unit in the codex got buffed. They all give -1T, which is huge!

 

Mortarion - don't need to explain.

 

Typhus - more attacks, two weapon profiles, reroll 1's for core now. Gained movement and advance rolls.

 

LoC - lost the dumb MW aura for a larger contagion aura. Also got reroll 1's. Gained movement and advance rolls.

 

Malignant plaguecaster - MW went from 7" to 12" and the staff got 1 more strength

 

Chaos lords and sorcs - now T5 with DR

 

Deathshroud - two weapon profiles and went WS2+. 3W too. Also 2D instead of d3. Gained movement and advance rolls. Kept 4++.

 

Blightlords - 3W. With Axes and the -1T they wound marines on 2+ reroll 1's. Gained movement and advance rolls. Kept 4++

 

Helbrutes - finally got -1D, which is the new DR anyways.

 

Possessed - better attacks, T5, got DR and plague weapon

 

Noxious Blightbringer - aura improvement and reduces enemy psychic tests

 

Tallyman - changed from a roll of 7 to a roll of 7+

 

Plague surgeon - instead of rerolling a 1, he now gives a 6+++

 

Plague marines - 2W now, get the extra attack all the time instead of Hateful. 5 man squads got a wargear nerf but 10 man squads can take much more now

 

Poxwalkers - went from 5+++ to 6+++ but gain natural T4 and are ws4+ full time. Pretty cheap again too

 

Bloat drones - lost the bracket, point reduction on the spitters, and the other weapons are now hitting on 3+ (12 blender attacks too!)

 

Haulers - ws/bs3+ and two melta shots now

 

Chaos spawn - 2d3 attacks now

 

PBC - 3+ to hit, ectoplasm is 3+d3 damage, mortar went to 2. Love it.

 

Even though defilers can't get DR they can still shoot in combat with no penalty, and there is a strat to even shoot blast weapons while in melee.

 

So yeah, our best strats of 8th got nerfed. But now we have a lot better strats overall instead of like 3 good ones and trash. The core change and chaos lord limit was going to happen regardless just like marines. The mono bonus is amazing. I love it. So useful. The legion trait is cool too. I'm still in the party that overall this codex is stronger.

 

 

Im sorry but anyone who thinks the spitters a decent choice just blows my mind. They were somewhat workable in early 8th but by the end there were garbage.

Anyone who thinks that an effective average of 7 S6 Ap -1 D1 hits + 4 S6 Ap-1 D1 attacks is worth it over paying an extra 5 points for a guaranteed 12 S8 AP-2 D2 attacks is mental. The D2 alone makes it work it. Against T3 chaff they are statistically the same, but against everything else the mowers are better. And if you want to get into aura range without stopping the target unit from shooting...well 1, charges happen after shooting, and 2. the aura is  only 1" on turn 1, and if you really need to get that aura off but you cant be in combat with the unit, just use a 2CP strat to get it up to a 3" aura.

 

As for the rest. Well a lot of what you said sounds like you are a GW representative lol. Melta going to 2 shots, yea thats the rules for melta. The blightbringers reduced psychic power is a 6" range (its pointless). Dreadnoughts getting DR, no it got duty eternal, it should also have got DR.

Yea most people are not saying its a bad codex. Thats crazy. Its just that there a lot of dumb decissions/pointless units/rules/stratagems...hence the title of DG frustrations, and not DG codex sucks

[Special Officer Doofy]

Im sorry but anyone who thinks the spitters a decent choice just blows my mind. They were somewhat workable in early 8th but by the end there were garbage.

Anyone who thinks that an effective average of 7 S6 Ap -1 D1 hits + 4 S6 Ap-1 D1 attacks is worth it over paying an extra 5 points for a guaranteed 12 S8 AP-2 D2 attacks is mental. The D2 alone makes it work it. Against T3 chaff they are statistically the same, but against everything else the mowers are better. And if you want to get into aura range without stopping the target unit from shooting...well 1, charges happen after shooting, and 2. the aura is only 1" on turn 1, and if you really need to get that aura off but you cant be in combat with the unit, just use a 2CP strat to get it up to a 3" aura.

 

As for the rest. Well a lot of what you said sounds like you are a GW representative lol. Melta going to 2 shots, yea thats the rules for melta. The blightbringers reduced psychic power is a 6" range (its pointless). Dreadnoughts getting DR, no it got duty eternal, it should also have got DR.

Yea most people are not saying its a bad codex. Thats crazy. Its just that there a lot of dumb decissions/pointless units/rules/stratagems...hence the title of DG frustrations, and not DG codex sucks

You're just complaining to complain. That's 7 average auto hits PLUS 4 chances in melee with the probe versus 12 chances to hit. The mower is only S7 now as well, probe is -2ap. Would you like me to do the math on how the two spitters auto hitting and 4 probe attacks is statically better then the 12 mower attacks (not hits) against T3 1W chaff? With the option of ending an advance move and still use the flamers for something charging wouldn't even be an option.

 

I'll do the math for you against my T3 4+ 1W skitarii example.

 

Mower

12 attacks x .66ws x .97wound chance (2+ reroll 1) x .834 (4+ -2ap that's the save). That equals 6.40 dead models.

 

Spitters followed by probe

7 average spitters auto hitting x .97wound x .66 is 4.48 dead models

4 probe attacks x .66ws x .97 wound x .834armor save is 2.14 dead models

 

4.48+2.14=6.62

 

6.62 (spitters and probe) > 6.40 (mower)

 

More dead models for less points with more options like ranged shooting after advancing and things like overwatch. You're the fool. Not everyone only plays marines all the time. Different wargear is for different situations. With the -1T mono trait that makes spitters better for less at clearing all 4T 1W troops better. So nid swarms, orc boys, cultists, necron warriors, all forms of Eldar 1w troops, guards, sisters, skitarii, tau fire warriors and more.

 

And the multi melta going to 2 shots is the rule for the multi melta. That just so happens it makes blight haulers better. Just like Daemon engines going to 3+. Which is in the codex. Look at that, codex making a unit better. Go look at any thread about GW that I have posted in it, I always complain about them and don't care for them as a company. I just like the models and to play the game.

 

There is this thing called internal balance within a faction. The best stuff got worse. The bad stuff got better. And overall the army is better.

Edited January 22, 2021 by Putrid Choir