Iron Sage Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 2. Yea sure some people will take cultists and land raiders too, and give bloat drones plague spitters...doesnt mean its a decent choice. I like bloat drones with spitters. They are the best at clearing T3 troops off objectives. And now they are the cheapest. They also have the utility of getting close to give off the -1T aura without tying the unit up so others can shoot. The blender Drone can't do that. Also the spitters can charge after and have 4 probe attacks. My main opponent is admech, they just melt skitarii. Certain things got nerfed, like Votlw and DR, but there is so much good in the book still. Almost every unit in the codex got buffed. They all give -1T, which is huge! Mortarion - don't need to explain. Typhus - more attacks, two weapon profiles, reroll 1's for core now. Gained movement and advance rolls. LoC - lost the dumb MW aura for a larger contagion aura. Also got reroll 1's. Gained movement and advance rolls. Malignant plaguecaster - MW went from 7" to 12" and the staff got 1 more strength Chaos lords and sorcs - now T5 with DR Deathshroud - two weapon profiles and went WS2+. 3W too. Also 2D instead of d3. Gained movement and advance rolls. Kept 4++. Blightlords - 3W. With Axes and the -1T they wound marines on 2+ reroll 1's. Gained movement and advance rolls. Kept 4++ Helbrutes - finally got -1D, which is the new DR anyways. Possessed - better attacks, T5, got DR and plague weapon Noxious Blightbringer - aura improvement and reduces enemy psychic tests Tallyman - changed from a roll of 7 to a roll of 7+ Plague surgeon - instead of rerolling a 1, he now gives a 6+++ Plague marines - 2W now, get the extra attack all the time instead of Hateful. 5 man squads got a wargear nerf but 10 man squads can take much more now Poxwalkers - went from 5+++ to 6+++ but gain natural T4 and are ws4+ full time. Pretty cheap again too Bloat drones - lost the bracket, point reduction on the spitters, and the other weapons are now hitting on 3+ (12 blender attacks too!) Haulers - ws/bs3+ and two melta shots now Chaos spawn - 2d3 attacks now PBC - 3+ to hit, ectoplasm is 3+d3 damage, mortar went to 2. Love it. Even though defilers can't get DR they can still shoot in combat with no penalty, and there is a strat to even shoot blast weapons while in melee. So yeah, our best strats of 8th got nerfed. But now we have a lot better strats overall instead of like 3 good ones and trash. The core change and chaos lord limit was going to happen regardless just like marines. The mono bonus is amazing. I love it. So useful. The legion trait is cool too. I'm still in the party that overall this codex is stronger. Im sorry but anyone who thinks the spitters a decent choice just blows my mind. They were somewhat workable in early 8th but by the end there were garbage. Anyone who thinks that an effective average of 7 S6 Ap -1 D1 hits + 4 S6 Ap-1 D1 attacks is worth it over paying an extra 5 points for a guaranteed 12 S8 AP-2 D2 attacks is mental. The D2 alone makes it work it. Against T3 chaff they are statistically the same, but against everything else the mowers are better. And if you want to get into aura range without stopping the target unit from shooting...well 1, charges happen after shooting, and 2. the aura is only 1" on turn 1, and if you really need to get that aura off but you cant be in combat with the unit, just use a 2CP strat to get it up to a 3" aura. As for the rest. Well a lot of what you said sounds like you are a GW representative lol. Melta going to 2 shots, yea thats the rules for melta. The blightbringers reduced psychic power is a 6" range (its pointless). Dreadnoughts getting DR, no it got duty eternal, it should also have got DR. Yea most people are not saying its a bad codex. Thats crazy. Its just that there a lot of dumb decissions/pointless units/rules/stratagems...hence the title of DG frustrations, and not DG codex sucks Your first posts were very much "this codex sucks". You now trying to change tact to "that's crazy" reads hilarious. Have some self awareness please. Your allowed to change your opinions, but it is indescribably silly when you go out with these ultra bombastic Argh- it's all awful, all stratagems are garbage, relics garbage, units gargage, and now try to describe your initial position as basically just being critical of the dumb decisions regarding some limited stuff. For what it is worth, I agree with some of the points you make in some of your posts, but you are ridiculously high pitched bombastic, it was incredibly apparent that you had not at all spent a couple of hours studying the codex before you ranted away like an idiot. And then it is amazing to me that you are being so caustic towards others here, like the guy who wants to use his plague spitters (I agree, very inferior choice to mower, but if he is playing mostly Admech it can probably work well for him against their infantry, although I would prefer only to use them in Mortarion's Own detachments for the crucial 2 DAM strat). After all, you were the fool who bombastically proclaimed in a whining voice that all statagems were so awful when the truth is that they are not awful at all compared to the old codex, they merely removed the one trick poney stuff and generally improved the others significantly and gave more tactical flexibility. Also, you have extremely questionable logic at times, I too wanted double DR dreeadnoughts, kind of hoped for it since I understood that the leaked rule was for dreadnoughts, but I won't ever complain about it since I knew deep within that it would be unbalanced without a large points hike. Have you even considered what a -2 Dam reduction dreadnought would actually mean ? You have not, I can tell, since there is a massive difference between reducing 1 and 2 damage and I can tell you that without being a good math hammer guy. You haven't given it any thought, you just laser in and focus blindly on what you think you have lost. Also melta getting 2 shots is a valid point, it got better, there is no reason for you to "lol" at him, he is right not you and you should learn some humility. Overall change to Multi-Melta logically means that the unit fires double shots, doesn't matter how you want to spin it and claim it is "outside the codex", your logic is still not sound and there is no reason for you to "lol" at anyone but yourself. As for the Noxious Blightbringer, his -1 to Psyk is his least powerful rule and only relevant in some very few scenarios. The model is still very useful in some lists though, since the + 1 MV can be crucial. I agree that land raiders, defilers and rhinos should have had DR, it is a bit of a glaring omission. The defiler at 175 points is not "garbage" (your favorite word when talking about this Codex), in a list where you have several high Toughness/armour threats and plan to advance on the enemy in an armoured push it seems to be a pretty good choice and will cause problems to many opponents, since it is much superior in melee to the MBH's and has a pretty good cannon with DAM 3. The only reason why it is not a very good choice is because PBC's are so very, very good and the defiler lacks DR. So yeah, most people who have studied the codex says it seems to be a good codex and yes, ranting off like you have done, is in your own words, "crazy", although I would use silly myself as there is nothing crazy about it, it is just immature and dumb (it is not uncommon after all, you just took general negativity on Codex changes to 6th gear, throwing around the word "garbage" left and right in a maddened flurry of artificial negativity). And particularly when you the day after having described something as "garbage" comes with an "actually, it is not so......", and this has happened several times, and to be blunt, I don't appreciate hyperbole when taken to such ridiculous levels as you have done as it generates a negativity that absolutely no one needs. BLACK BLΠFLY, Special Officer Doofy, Bulwyf and 3 others 6 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/368613-dg-frustrations/page/3/#findComment-5657187 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plague _Lord Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 Without getting into the heated parts of this argument too much I cansee why some people might be disgruntled by some of the changes, because they seem really ney grabby. The main offenders are of course plague marines and fleshmower drones. Many people play WYSWIG so a lot of their plague marine squad are now illegal, forcing them to either rip their models apart, or buy more. Nearly everyone has spitter drones and have the same problem of either changing them to mowers or buying more. I for one played exclusively with mortarion's chosen so maxed my PBC and drones with spitters and now both these units have gotten a bit worse and seem the inferior pick vs other loadouts (thought the plague company strat still makes spitter drones good, the loss in strength hurts). Despite that I think the new codex is amazingly fun and fluffy. Plague marines seem good now, poxwalkers are cheaper and terminators rock. While I really like our daemon engines, their cost has gone up so much, that spamming them isn't really an option. Of course they could have handled infernal jealousy and plague marine loadouts differently but overall it looks fun, with lots of different army archetypes being quite good. One thing I don't understand is why GW hates Land Raiders so much. The sculpt is old yet still looks great but It's hard to include it in a list when other thing have gotten so much better. It's still overcosted and has very bland rules - where is the old daemonic possession rule that let it heal wounds, why doesn't it give out mortal wounds to nearby enemies? Why doesn't it have an assault ramp? They just ignore this problem for some reason and I'm pretty sure a lot of people would love to use their land Raiders if they werent so bad. Relentless 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/368613-dg-frustrations/page/3/#findComment-5657220 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 Without getting into the heated parts of this argument too much I cansee why some people might be disgruntled by some of the changes, because they seem really ney grabby. The main offenders are of course plague marines and fleshmower drones. Many people play WYSWIG so a lot of their plague marine squad are now illegal, forcing them to either rip their models apart, or buy more. Nearly everyone has spitter drones and have the same problem of either changing them to mowers or buying more. I for one played exclusively with mortarion's chosen so maxed my PBC and drones with spitters and now both these units have gotten a bit worse and seem the inferior pick vs other loadouts (thought the plague company strat still makes spitter drones good, the loss in strength hurts). Despite that I think the new codex is amazingly fun and fluffy. Plague marines seem good now, poxwalkers are cheaper and terminators rock. While I really like our daemon engines, their cost has gone up so much, that spamming them isn't really an option. Of course they could have handled infernal jealousy and plague marine loadouts differently but overall it looks fun, with lots of different army archetypes being quite good. One thing I don't understand is why GW hates Land Raiders so much. The sculpt is old yet still looks great but It's hard to include it in a list when other thing have gotten so much better. It's still overcosted and has very bland rules - where is the old daemonic possession rule that let it heal wounds, why doesn't it give out mortal wounds to nearby enemies? Why doesn't it have an assault ramp? They just ignore this problem for some reason and I'm pretty sure a lot of people would love to use their land Raiders if they werent so bad. I don't think anyone has criticised anyone for being disgruntled with systemic weapon load out changes and restrictions, most everyone is disgruntled by that. Having illegal formations is frustrating to everyone and very legitimate criticism. Saying all strats, most units, most special rules is garbage, is not though, as It is just stupid bull:cuss that is just very annoying to read. Very much agree concerning Land Raider. I have one I am proud of. I worked a lot on it to make it Death Guard, and like you I love the base model even before . But every single edition since forever, they are sub-par and too costly. Daemonic Possession would be great on it, also the Contaminated Monstrosity from War of the Spider worked well. It is personally the unit I most want to field but feel I really shouldn't since it simply cost too much. If it could transport 12, then maybe, maybe, but since it can only transport 10, with new limitations to PMs and what weapons they can use when not a full squad, it is simply extremely difficult to even fill it up with a lethal formation, since you will need a couple of characters to give them oomph. Pretty pointless to drive around with just a 10 man plague marine squad when the transport costs hearts-blood in points, better to walk them or use rhino; since when you make your plague marine squad a 7 man squad, you can't really give them the assault weapons they need. I will still probably field my Land Raider when I play a friend of mine who plays Dark Angels but has little experience with the game and more of a painter and modeler, but probably not against anyone else. But against that guy, I use ineffective formations on purpose because I know I am much better than him at making effective lists so I try to mitigate that a bit by using "bad units" because no one likes to be steamrolled every single game. But yeah, I can't understand why GW doesn't try to make the Land Raider viable in competitive games as it is such an incredibly iconic unit that every Space Marine player, both loyal and traitor, needs in their collection for their armies to feel anything near complete. A real shame. If there only was a way to give it DR at the very least. As for the Plaguespitter drone, yeah, it simply isn't the best choice. A cynic would maybe suspect that GW made the thresher better on purpose so they could sell the kits. I am still going to try to use them in Mortarion's Own detachments for more friendly play probably, but the thresher is by far the superior choice in competitive games. I suspect spitter drones will further drop in points later in 9ed (alternatively the Thresher will get a points hike) as 133 still seems too much for what it does against most armies. Plague _Lord, Kallas, Dark Legionnare and 1 other 4 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/368613-dg-frustrations/page/3/#findComment-5657234 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Legionnare Posted January 23, 2021 Share Posted January 23, 2021 (edited) Without getting into the heated parts of this argument too much I cansee why some people might be disgruntled by some of the changes, because they seem really ney grabby. The main offenders are of course plague marines and fleshmower drones. Many people play WYSWIG so a lot of their plague marine squad are now illegal, forcing them to either rip their models apart, or buy more. Nearly everyone has spitter drones and have the same problem of either changing them to mowers or buying more. I for one played exclusively with mortarion's chosen so maxed my PBC and drones with spitters and now both these units have gotten a bit worse and seem the inferior pick vs other loadouts (thought the plague company strat still makes spitter drones good, the loss in strength hurts). Despite that I think the new codex is amazingly fun and fluffy. Plague marines seem good now, poxwalkers are cheaper and terminators rock. While I really like our daemon engines, their cost has gone up so much, that spamming them isn't really an option. Of course they could have handled infernal jealousy and plague marine loadouts differently but overall it looks fun, with lots of different army archetypes being quite good. One thing I don't understand is why GW hates Land Raiders so much. The sculpt is old yet still looks great but It's hard to include it in a list when other thing have gotten so much better. It's still overcosted and has very bland rules - where is the old daemonic possession rule that let it heal wounds, why doesn't it give out mortal wounds to nearby enemies? Why doesn't it have an assault ramp? They just ignore this problem for some reason and I'm pretty sure a lot of people would love to use their land Raiders if they werent so bad. I don't think anyone has criticised anyone for being disgruntled with systemic weapon load out changes and restrictions, most everyone is disgruntled by that. Having illegal formations is frustrating to everyone and very legitimate criticism. Saying all strats, most units, most special rules is garbage, is not though, as It is just stupid bull:cuss that is just very annoying to read. Very much agree concerning Land Raider. I have one I am proud of. I worked a lot on it to make it Death Guard, and like you I love the base model even before . But every single edition since forever, they are sub-par and too costly. Daemonic Possession would be great on it, also the Contaminated Monstrosity from War of the Spider worked well. It is personally the unit I most want to field but feel I really shouldn't since it simply cost too much. If it could transport 12, then maybe, maybe, but since it can only transport 10, with new limitations to PMs and what weapons they can use when not a full squad, it is simply extremely difficult to even fill it up with a lethal formation, since you will need a couple of characters to give them oomph. Pretty pointless to drive around with just a 10 man plague marine squad when the transport costs hearts-blood in points, better to walk them or use rhino; since when you make your plague marine squad a 7 man squad, you can't really give them the assault weapons they need. I will still probably field my Land Raider when I play a friend of mine who plays Dark Angels but has little experience with the game and more of a painter and modeler, but probably not against anyone else. But against that guy, I use ineffective formations on purpose because I know I am much better than him at making effective lists so I try to mitigate that a bit by using "bad units" because no one likes to be steamrolled every single game. But yeah, I can't understand why GW doesn't try to make the Land Raider viable in competitive games as it is such an incredibly iconic unit that every Space Marine player, both loyal and traitor, needs in their collection for their armies to feel anything near complete. A real shame. If there only was a way to give it DR at the very least. As for the Plaguespitter drone, yeah, it simply isn't the best choice. A cynic would maybe suspect that GW made the thresher better on purpose so they could sell the kits. I am still going to try to use them in Mortarion's Own detachments for more friendly play probably, but the thresher is by far the superior choice in competitive games. I suspect spitter drones will further drop in points later in 9ed (alternatively the Thresher will get a points hike) as 133 still seems too much for what it does against most armies. Seconded on the land raider front. Have this bad boy sitting around seeing so little love. Getting DR on them with Psychic Awakening made them take-able again. He had lots of fun, now he's a shelf queen again. *sad trombone* As for spitters, I agree they may not be the best choice, especially given the strats that let drones Heroic 6", and get wounds back for each kill in melee (up to 3), mower drones' longevity and utility has crazily spiked up from 8th, especially with the 3+ WS. Spitters is what I have built from Dark Imperium though, three of them, so spitters they will keep being! I ride out every edition WYSIWYG, I've never modified a single kit to follow what's good, and I'm not about to now. Does mean my double plasma plagues are going to be a bit sad, seeing as how they want to be 9 men to have a buddy tag along in the rhino with them, but oh well... That's my biggest gripe, the loadout changes. They didn't effect me TOO much, because I luckily have them all "legal" as long as I take 10 man squads, plenty of spillover bolters to run smaller squads with only one Plasma or Blight launcher. But I can definitely sympathize with the people who had spent money on bitz, went ham on customizing their squads out to be awesome melee blenders or such, and are now getting the raw end of the deal. Also, flesh-mowers getting so buffed you can ABSOLUTELY guarantee is a way for GW to sell more kits, seeing as how 90% of people I know that have any drones (myself included) have just the one from dark imperium I'm sure they didn't sell the standalone kit nearly as much as they wanted to. Same way centurions were the crème de la crème of SM once codex 2.0's came out. Edited January 23, 2021 by Dark Legionnare Iron Sage and Jorgend Lupus 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/368613-dg-frustrations/page/3/#findComment-5657721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgascoine011 Posted January 23, 2021 Author Share Posted January 23, 2021 Im sorry but anyone who thinks the spitters a decent choice just blows my mind. They were somewhat workable in early 8th but by the end there were garbage. Anyone who thinks that an effective average of 7 S6 Ap -1 D1 hits + 4 S6 Ap-1 D1 attacks is worth it over paying an extra 5 points for a guaranteed 12 S8 AP-2 D2 attacks is mental. The D2 alone makes it work it. Against T3 chaff they are statistically the same, but against everything else the mowers are better. And if you want to get into aura range without stopping the target unit from shooting...well 1, charges happen after shooting, and 2. the aura is only 1" on turn 1, and if you really need to get that aura off but you cant be in combat with the unit, just use a 2CP strat to get it up to a 3" aura. As for the rest. Well a lot of what you said sounds like you are a GW representative lol. Melta going to 2 shots, yea thats the rules for melta. The blightbringers reduced psychic power is a 6" range (its pointless). Dreadnoughts getting DR, no it got duty eternal, it should also have got DR. Yea most people are not saying its a bad codex. Thats crazy. Its just that there a lot of dumb decissions/pointless units/rules/stratagems...hence the title of DG frustrations, and not DG codex sucks You're just complaining to complain. That's 7 average auto hits PLUS 4 chances in melee with the probe versus 12 chances to hit. The mower is only S7 now as well, probe is -2ap. Would you like me to do the math on how the two spitters auto hitting and 4 probe attacks is statically better then the 12 mower attacks (not hits) against T3 1W chaff? With the option of ending an advance move and still use the flamers for something charging wouldn't even be an option. I'll do the math for you against my T3 4+ 1W skitarii example. Mower 12 attacks x .66ws x .97wound chance (2+ reroll 1) x .834 (4+ -2ap that's the save). That equals 6.40 dead models. Spitters followed by probe 7 average spitters auto hitting x .97wound x .66 is 4.48 dead models 4 probe attacks x .66ws x .97 wound x .834armor save is 2.14 dead models 4.48+2.14=6.62 6.62 (spitters and probe) > 6.40 (mower) More dead models for less points with more options like ranged shooting after advancing and things like overwatch. You're the fool. Not everyone only plays marines all the time. Different wargear is for different situations. With the -1T mono trait that makes spitters better for less at clearing all 4T 1W troops better. So nid swarms, orc boys, cultists, necron warriors, all forms of Eldar 1w troops, guards, sisters, skitarii, tau fire warriors and more. And the multi melta going to 2 shots is the rule for the multi melta. That just so happens it makes blight haulers better. Just like Daemon engines going to 3+. Which is in the codex. Look at that, codex making a unit better. Go look at any thread about GW that I have posted in it, I always complain about them and don't care for them as a company. I just like the models and to play the game. There is this thing called internal balance within a faction. The best stuff got worse. The bad stuff got better. And overall the army is better. golly gee? You think a 0.2 average makes a statistical average? And I said effective strength. Being S7 but enemy being -1T effectivly means S8. So the spewers give 6.6 dead guys vs T3 4+. Hmm how about vs T4 2W? Or vehicles? As I said, the mowers perfrom pretty much the same vs T3 models, but are far better vs pretty much everything else in the game, and we already have lots of ways to deal with T3 models. Plaguecaster 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/368613-dg-frustrations/page/3/#findComment-5657866 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgascoine011 Posted January 23, 2021 Author Share Posted January 23, 2021 2. Yea sure some people will take cultists and land raiders too, and give bloat drones plague spitters...doesnt mean its a decent choice. I like bloat drones with spitters. They are the best at clearing T3 troops off objectives. And now they are the cheapest. They also have the utility of getting close to give off the -1T aura without tying the unit up so others can shoot. The blender Drone can't do that. Also the spitters can charge after and have 4 probe attacks. My main opponent is admech, they just melt skitarii. Certain things got nerfed, like Votlw and DR, but there is so much good in the book still. Almost every unit in the codex got buffed. They all give -1T, which is huge! Mortarion - don't need to explain. Typhus - more attacks, two weapon profiles, reroll 1's for core now. Gained movement and advance rolls. LoC - lost the dumb MW aura for a larger contagion aura. Also got reroll 1's. Gained movement and advance rolls. Malignant plaguecaster - MW went from 7" to 12" and the staff got 1 more strength Chaos lords and sorcs - now T5 with DR Deathshroud - two weapon profiles and went WS2+. 3W too. Also 2D instead of d3. Gained movement and advance rolls. Kept 4++. Blightlords - 3W. With Axes and the -1T they wound marines on 2+ reroll 1's. Gained movement and advance rolls. Kept 4++ Helbrutes - finally got -1D, which is the new DR anyways. Possessed - better attacks, T5, got DR and plague weapon Noxious Blightbringer - aura improvement and reduces enemy psychic tests Tallyman - changed from a roll of 7 to a roll of 7+ Plague surgeon - instead of rerolling a 1, he now gives a 6+++ Plague marines - 2W now, get the extra attack all the time instead of Hateful. 5 man squads got a wargear nerf but 10 man squads can take much more now Poxwalkers - went from 5+++ to 6+++ but gain natural T4 and are ws4+ full time. Pretty cheap again too Bloat drones - lost the bracket, point reduction on the spitters, and the other weapons are now hitting on 3+ (12 blender attacks too!) Haulers - ws/bs3+ and two melta shots now Chaos spawn - 2d3 attacks now PBC - 3+ to hit, ectoplasm is 3+d3 damage, mortar went to 2. Love it. Even though defilers can't get DR they can still shoot in combat with no penalty, and there is a strat to even shoot blast weapons while in melee. So yeah, our best strats of 8th got nerfed. But now we have a lot better strats overall instead of like 3 good ones and trash. The core change and chaos lord limit was going to happen regardless just like marines. The mono bonus is amazing. I love it. So useful. The legion trait is cool too. I'm still in the party that overall this codex is stronger. Im sorry but anyone who thinks the spitters a decent choice just blows my mind. They were somewhat workable in early 8th but by the end there were garbage. Anyone who thinks that an effective average of 7 S6 Ap -1 D1 hits + 4 S6 Ap-1 D1 attacks is worth it over paying an extra 5 points for a guaranteed 12 S8 AP-2 D2 attacks is mental. The D2 alone makes it work it. Against T3 chaff they are statistically the same, but against everything else the mowers are better. And if you want to get into aura range without stopping the target unit from shooting...well 1, charges happen after shooting, and 2. the aura is only 1" on turn 1, and if you really need to get that aura off but you cant be in combat with the unit, just use a 2CP strat to get it up to a 3" aura. As for the rest. Well a lot of what you said sounds like you are a GW representative lol. Melta going to 2 shots, yea thats the rules for melta. The blightbringers reduced psychic power is a 6" range (its pointless). Dreadnoughts getting DR, no it got duty eternal, it should also have got DR. Yea most people are not saying its a bad codex. Thats crazy. Its just that there a lot of dumb decissions/pointless units/rules/stratagems...hence the title of DG frustrations, and not DG codex sucks Your first posts were very much "this codex sucks". You now trying to change tact to "that's crazy" reads hilarious. Have some self awareness please. Your allowed to change your opinions, but it is indescribably silly when you go out with these ultra bombastic Argh- it's all awful, all stratagems are garbage, relics garbage, units gargage, and now try to describe your initial position as basically just being critical of the dumb decisions regarding some limited stuff. For what it is worth, I agree with some of the points you make in some of your posts, but you are ridiculously high pitched bombastic, it was incredibly apparent that you had not at all spent a couple of hours studying the codex before you ranted away like an idiot. And then it is amazing to me that you are being so caustic towards others here, like the guy who wants to use his plague spitters (I agree, very inferior choice to mower, but if he is playing mostly Admech it can probably work well for him against their infantry, although I would prefer only to use them in Mortarion's Own detachments for the crucial 2 DAM strat). After all, you were the fool who bombastically proclaimed in a whining voice that all statagems were so awful when the truth is that they are not awful at all compared to the old codex, they merely removed the one trick poney stuff and generally improved the others significantly and gave more tactical flexibility. Also, you have extremely questionable logic at times, I too wanted double DR dreeadnoughts, kind of hoped for it since I understood that the leaked rule was for dreadnoughts, but I won't ever complain about it since I knew deep within that it would be unbalanced without a large points hike. Have you even considered what a -2 Dam reduction dreadnought would actually mean ? You have not, I can tell, since there is a massive difference between reducing 1 and 2 damage and I can tell you that without being a good math hammer guy. You haven't given it any thought, you just laser in and focus blindly on what you think you have lost. Also melta getting 2 shots is a valid point, it got better, there is no reason for you to "lol" at him, he is right not you and you should learn some humility. Overall change to Multi-Melta logically means that the unit fires double shots, doesn't matter how you want to spin it and claim it is "outside the codex", your logic is still not sound and there is no reason for you to "lol" at anyone but yourself. As for the Noxious Blightbringer, his -1 to Psyk is his least powerful rule and only relevant in some very few scenarios. The model is still very useful in some lists though, since the + 1 MV can be crucial. I agree that land raiders, defilers and rhinos should have had DR, it is a bit of a glaring omission. The defiler at 175 points is not "garbage" (your favorite word when talking about this Codex), in a list where you have several high Toughness/armour threats and plan to advance on the enemy in an armoured push it seems to be a pretty good choice and will cause problems to many opponents, since it is much superior in melee to the MBH's and has a pretty good cannon with DAM 3. The only reason why it is not a very good choice is because PBC's are so very, very good and the defiler lacks DR. So yeah, most people who have studied the codex says it seems to be a good codex and yes, ranting off like you have done, is in your own words, "crazy", although I would use silly myself as there is nothing crazy about it, it is just immature and dumb (it is not uncommon after all, you just took general negativity on Codex changes to 6th gear, throwing around the word "garbage" left and right in a maddened flurry of artificial negativity). And particularly when you the day after having described something as "garbage" comes with an "actually, it is not so......", and this has happened several times, and to be blunt, I don't appreciate hyperbole when taken to such ridiculous levels as you have done as it generates a negativity that absolutely no one needs. Its incredibly frustrating when I literally say things like "The HQs are not bad" or "-1T is amazing" and people are saying I am saying the codex is :cuss, I never once said that. Again, for the 100000000th time. The codex is good, its actually very strong, but there are some really pointless units/rules/stratagems which force you to play a very specific way. And I am talking from a semi-competitve list here. And by that I mean you are taking a battalion, and trying to fit it around some fluff, but still not take crap units. As such, when you have to take 2 HQs, and one of them will most deffinetly be a plague caster, why would you take a LoC/LoV etc over a daemon prince? Why are you going to take a preditor/defiler etc over a PBC when taking one will actually make your list weaker? As for stratagems, again yes there are some good ones, but the good ones cost a lot of CP, so anyone who things spending 3CP for blight bombardment, or 2 CP to do a single MW to units within 7" is good is just mental. However if you want me to go thought what is super stong then i will -1T Aura Daemon Prince (Still amazing with 8 S8 AP-2 D2 attacks, and the relic for re-roll hit and wounds) Possessed (These guys are just amazing, I would rate them way above blight lord terminators just for the simple fact that they are much cheaper and can use Cloud of Flies far more effectivly). PBC with entropy cannon. Finally, 3 of them can actually kill a rhino. Drones with mowers. Actually a terrifying unit. With the loss of arch contaminator, i really feel like mowers is the only way to go. Use them to soak up fire and then throw them into primaris marines, and they just destroy units. Chaos Spawn. Just such amazing objective holders, but can cost a lot of CP. Personaly i would only take 1 unit of 3 The tallyman, blightspawn, and putrifier are all near must takes depending on the list. PM are ok. I think spamming them will be hard, but i would nearly always take a unit of them Poxwalkers became affordable and I would nearly always take 2 units of 20 Blightlords/Deathsrouds are good. MBH are expensive, but if playing poxmongers, 1 unit of 3 with a 4++, and reducing number of shots by 1 can be incredibly strong. Mortarion The bad LoC/LoV have aura's that are just too weak Cultist should have gone and been replaced by nurglings (even if they didnt get OS or filled up a compulsory troops choice etc) Chaos lord in terminator armour should be removed. This is just codex filling. The limits on the number of chaos lords and poxwalkers you could take should not have been implemented. Especially on poxwalkers. If somebody wants to have done a full zombie horde army they should be allowed Land raiders, predators, defilers, hellbrutes, rhinos (and spawn) should all have gotten DR. I dont get the new terrain thing. I am paying points for something I can get for free by setting up terrain in the right way. At 1st I thought maybe you could set it up after deployment and just throw it down somewhere to completley block off an area from movement, but as it can be shot (and more importantly charged) and dies very easily, you cant even really do that. The secondary objectives are garbage. The way the contagion rules are written is very confusing. The only ones I see are the -1T aura, and then 1 character can get one as a WLT, but the way it is written seems like there should be more. The pathogens are hilariously way to expensive for what they do. The only ones i can see being taken are the additional Ap, the 6s get extra hits, and maybe re-roll number of shots on the blightspawn (for a S8 gun). Most people were running drones and PBC with spitters, these are now pointless and should have gotten a buff. Most people were running PM in units that are now illegal. It should have been 2 special weapons/5 man unit. Therefore if somebody wanted they could run 1 BL and 1 PG, but for those of us who built for 8th you could run 2 BL etc. Too many rules are way to unit/weapon/core/phase specific. Plaguecaster 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/368613-dg-frustrations/page/3/#findComment-5657946 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted January 23, 2021 Share Posted January 23, 2021 (edited) Its incredibly frustrating when I literally say things like "The HQs are not bad" or "-1T is amazing" and people are saying I am saying the codex is , I never once said that. Oh? So rhinos, defilers etc didnt get DR???????????????????????????????? What the actual . How are people defending this piece of garbage codex. Really? Im just not a GW fan boy praising everything they do even if its a pile of garbage. Some of the things coming out of people is laughable. Take the plague surgeon, SM does exactly the same thing and nobody takes him for his crappy 6+++, they take him because he can bring back a model, yet youtubers etc are going how amazing he is because he gives a 6+++ Its very frustrating when you pay 100s of £ to play a army because you like how they play and then GW decide to all over it. There are 3 things in this codex that are good: Mortarion, +1 wound to marines, and the contagion ability...thats it. If i had the choice of playing this codex or the old one I would undoutably play the old one. DR got nerfed, HQs got nerfed, Arch contaminator nerfed, Strats got all over. I am glad that you are finding good in the Codex, and taking the time to reconsider. Edited January 23, 2021 by Kallas Special Officer Doofy and Iron Sage 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/368613-dg-frustrations/page/3/#findComment-5658127 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 (edited) 2. Yea sure some people will take cultists and land raiders too, and give bloat drones plague spitters...doesnt mean its a decent choice. I like bloat drones with spitters. They are the best at clearing T3 troops off objectives. And now they are the cheapest. They also have the utility of getting close to give off the -1T aura without tying the unit up so others can shoot. The blender Drone can't do that. Also the spitters can charge after and have 4 probe attacks. My main opponent is admech, they just melt skitarii. Certain things got nerfed, like Votlw and DR, but there is so much good in the book still. Almost every unit in the codex got buffed. They all give -1T, which is huge! Mortarion - don't need to explain. Typhus - more attacks, two weapon profiles, reroll 1's for core now. Gained movement and advance rolls. LoC - lost the dumb MW aura for a larger contagion aura. Also got reroll 1's. Gained movement and advance rolls. Malignant plaguecaster - MW went from 7" to 12" and the staff got 1 more strength Chaos lords and sorcs - now T5 with DR Deathshroud - two weapon profiles and went WS2+. 3W too. Also 2D instead of d3. Gained movement and advance rolls. Kept 4++. Blightlords - 3W. With Axes and the -1T they wound marines on 2+ reroll 1's. Gained movement and advance rolls. Kept 4++ Helbrutes - finally got -1D, which is the new DR anyways. Possessed - better attacks, T5, got DR and plague weapon Noxious Blightbringer - aura improvement and reduces enemy psychic tests Tallyman - changed from a roll of 7 to a roll of 7+ Plague surgeon - instead of rerolling a 1, he now gives a 6+++ Plague marines - 2W now, get the extra attack all the time instead of Hateful. 5 man squads got a wargear nerf but 10 man squads can take much more now Poxwalkers - went from 5+++ to 6+++ but gain natural T4 and are ws4+ full time. Pretty cheap again too Bloat drones - lost the bracket, point reduction on the spitters, and the other weapons are now hitting on 3+ (12 blender attacks too!) Haulers - ws/bs3+ and two melta shots now Chaos spawn - 2d3 attacks now PBC - 3+ to hit, ectoplasm is 3+d3 damage, mortar went to 2. Love it. Even though defilers can't get DR they can still shoot in combat with no penalty, and there is a strat to even shoot blast weapons while in melee. So yeah, our best strats of 8th got nerfed. But now we have a lot better strats overall instead of like 3 good ones and trash. The core change and chaos lord limit was going to happen regardless just like marines. The mono bonus is amazing. I love it. So useful. The legion trait is cool too. I'm still in the party that overall this codex is stronger. Im sorry but anyone who thinks the spitters a decent choice just blows my mind. They were somewhat workable in early 8th but by the end there were garbage. Anyone who thinks that an effective average of 7 S6 Ap -1 D1 hits + 4 S6 Ap-1 D1 attacks is worth it over paying an extra 5 points for a guaranteed 12 S8 AP-2 D2 attacks is mental. The D2 alone makes it work it. Against T3 chaff they are statistically the same, but against everything else the mowers are better. And if you want to get into aura range without stopping the target unit from shooting...well 1, charges happen after shooting, and 2. the aura is only 1" on turn 1, and if you really need to get that aura off but you cant be in combat with the unit, just use a 2CP strat to get it up to a 3" aura. As for the rest. Well a lot of what you said sounds like you are a GW representative lol. Melta going to 2 shots, yea thats the rules for melta. The blightbringers reduced psychic power is a 6" range (its pointless). Dreadnoughts getting DR, no it got duty eternal, it should also have got DR. Yea most people are not saying its a bad codex. Thats crazy. Its just that there a lot of dumb decissions/pointless units/rules/stratagems...hence the title of DG frustrations, and not DG codex sucks Your first posts were very much "this codex sucks". You now trying to change tact to "that's crazy" reads hilarious. Have some self awareness please. Your allowed to change your opinions, but it is indescribably silly when you go out with these ultra bombastic Argh- it's all awful, all stratagems are garbage, relics garbage, units gargage, and now try to describe your initial position as basically just being critical of the dumb decisions regarding some limited stuff. For what it is worth, I agree with some of the points you make in some of your posts, but you are ridiculously high pitched bombastic, it was incredibly apparent that you had not at all spent a couple of hours studying the codex before you ranted away like an idiot. And then it is amazing to me that you are being so caustic towards others here, like the guy who wants to use his plague spitters (I agree, very inferior choice to mower, but if he is playing mostly Admech it can probably work well for him against their infantry, although I would prefer only to use them in Mortarion's Own detachments for the crucial 2 DAM strat). After all, you were the fool who bombastically proclaimed in a whining voice that all statagems were so awful when the truth is that they are not awful at all compared to the old codex, they merely removed the one trick poney stuff and generally improved the others significantly and gave more tactical flexibility. Also, you have extremely questionable logic at times, I too wanted double DR dreeadnoughts, kind of hoped for it since I understood that the leaked rule was for dreadnoughts, but I won't ever complain about it since I knew deep within that it would be unbalanced without a large points hike. Have you even considered what a -2 Dam reduction dreadnought would actually mean ? You have not, I can tell, since there is a massive difference between reducing 1 and 2 damage and I can tell you that without being a good math hammer guy. You haven't given it any thought, you just laser in and focus blindly on what you think you have lost. Also melta getting 2 shots is a valid point, it got better, there is no reason for you to "lol" at him, he is right not you and you should learn some humility. Overall change to Multi-Melta logically means that the unit fires double shots, doesn't matter how you want to spin it and claim it is "outside the codex", your logic is still not sound and there is no reason for you to "lol" at anyone but yourself. As for the Noxious Blightbringer, his -1 to Psyk is his least powerful rule and only relevant in some very few scenarios. The model is still very useful in some lists though, since the + 1 MV can be crucial. I agree that land raiders, defilers and rhinos should have had DR, it is a bit of a glaring omission. The defiler at 175 points is not "garbage" (your favorite word when talking about this Codex), in a list where you have several high Toughness/armour threats and plan to advance on the enemy in an armoured push it seems to be a pretty good choice and will cause problems to many opponents, since it is much superior in melee to the MBH's and has a pretty good cannon with DAM 3. The only reason why it is not a very good choice is because PBC's are so very, very good and the defiler lacks DR. So yeah, most people who have studied the codex says it seems to be a good codex and yes, ranting off like you have done, is in your own words, "crazy", although I would use silly myself as there is nothing crazy about it, it is just immature and dumb (it is not uncommon after all, you just took general negativity on Codex changes to 6th gear, throwing around the word "garbage" left and right in a maddened flurry of artificial negativity). And particularly when you the day after having described something as "garbage" comes with an "actually, it is not so......", and this has happened several times, and to be blunt, I don't appreciate hyperbole when taken to such ridiculous levels as you have done as it generates a negativity that absolutely no one needs. Its incredibly frustrating when I literally say things like "The HQs are not bad" or "-1T is amazing" and people are saying I am saying the codex is , I never once said that. Again, for the 100000000th time. The codex is good, its actually very strong, but there are some really pointless units/rules/stratagems which force you to play a very specific way. And I am talking from a semi-competitve list here. And by that I mean you are taking a battalion, and trying to fit it around some fluff, but still not take crap units. As such, when you have to take 2 HQs, and one of them will most deffinetly be a plague caster, why would you take a LoC/LoV etc over a daemon prince? Why are you going to take a preditor/defiler etc over a PBC when taking one will actually make your list weaker? As for stratagems, again yes there are some good ones, but the good ones cost a lot of CP, so anyone who things spending 3CP for blight bombardment, or 2 CP to do a single MW to units within 7" is good is just mental. However if you want me to go thought what is super stong then i will -1T Aura Daemon Prince (Still amazing with 8 S8 AP-2 D2 attacks, and the relic for re-roll hit and wounds) Possessed (These guys are just amazing, I would rate them way above blight lord terminators just for the simple fact that they are much cheaper and can use Cloud of Flies far more effectivly). PBC with entropy cannon. Finally, 3 of them can actually kill a rhino. Drones with mowers. Actually a terrifying unit. With the loss of arch contaminator, i really feel like mowers is the only way to go. Use them to soak up fire and then throw them into primaris marines, and they just destroy units. Chaos Spawn. Just such amazing objective holders, but can cost a lot of CP. Personaly i would only take 1 unit of 3 The tallyman, blightspawn, and putrifier are all near must takes depending on the list. PM are ok. I think spamming them will be hard, but i would nearly always take a unit of them Poxwalkers became affordable and I would nearly always take 2 units of 20 Blightlords/Deathsrouds are good. MBH are expensive, but if playing poxmongers, 1 unit of 3 with a 4++, and reducing number of shots by 1 can be incredibly strong. Mortarion The bad LoC/LoV have aura's that are just too weak Cultist should have gone and been replaced by nurglings (even if they didnt get OS or filled up a compulsory troops choice etc) Chaos lord in terminator armour should be removed. This is just codex filling. The limits on the number of chaos lords and poxwalkers you could take should not have been implemented. Especially on poxwalkers. If somebody wants to have done a full zombie horde army they should be allowed Land raiders, predators, defilers, hellbrutes, rhinos (and spawn) should all have gotten DR. I dont get the new terrain thing. I am paying points for something I can get for free by setting up terrain in the right way. At 1st I thought maybe you could set it up after deployment and just throw it down somewhere to completley block off an area from movement, but as it can be shot (and more importantly charged) and dies very easily, you cant even really do that. The secondary objectives are garbage. The way the contagion rules are written is very confusing. The only ones I see are the -1T aura, and then 1 character can get one as a WLT, but the way it is written seems like there should be more. The pathogens are hilariously way to expensive for what they do. The only ones i can see being taken are the additional Ap, the 6s get extra hits, and maybe re-roll number of shots on the blightspawn (for a S8 gun). Most people were running drones and PBC with spitters, these are now pointless and should have gotten a buff. Most people were running PM in units that are now illegal. It should have been 2 special weapons/5 man unit. Therefore if somebody wanted they could run 1 BL and 1 PG, but for those of us who built for 8th you could run 2 BL etc. Too many rules are way to unit/weapon/core/phase specific. Stop rowing, you'll sink. Just have some self awareness and read your own posts and take a look at the stuff you posted when some of us were reading the codex and not understanding what on earth you were raging so incredibly hard about. I have nothing against you personally but you spewed too much ultra negative hyperbole for no reason and it is annoying to many, and that doesn't mean that we are GW fanboys. Take a look at the quotes that Kallas highlighted, you have said it is all in various rants, or I wouldn't have claimed it, since I don't do massive exaggerations or hyperbole, and I don't criticise other people for no reason, and if so I will apologice. To be clear, I will never criticise you again without very good reason and I am done with this. Hope I never have a dispute with you or anyone else in the future. Not out to get you at all. As I said, above, some of the things you have said I agree with, like weapon load outs and lack of HQ options and lack of DR for rhinos, defiler and Land raiders and indeed imbalance concerning certain units (like drones with questionable costed load-outs versus mower). All very good points. But that wasn't what I criticised at all. Anyway, I am done concerning this but I dislike the dishonesty in your claims in your post. Be honest and admit that you went totally overboard instead. Better that way and much easier to respect. But all good anyway. We are all just trying to enjoy our favorite toys anyway. No real harm done to anyone or anything. Edited January 24, 2021 by Iron Sage Special Officer Doofy 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/368613-dg-frustrations/page/3/#findComment-5658143 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgascoine011 Posted January 24, 2021 Author Share Posted January 24, 2021 2. Yea sure some people will take cultists and land raiders too, and give bloat drones plague spitters...doesnt mean its a decent choice. I like bloat drones with spitters. They are the best at clearing T3 troops off objectives. And now they are the cheapest. They also have the utility of getting close to give off the -1T aura without tying the unit up so others can shoot. The blender Drone can't do that. Also the spitters can charge after and have 4 probe attacks. My main opponent is admech, they just melt skitarii. Certain things got nerfed, like Votlw and DR, but there is so much good in the book still. Almost every unit in the codex got buffed. They all give -1T, which is huge! Mortarion - don't need to explain. Typhus - more attacks, two weapon profiles, reroll 1's for core now. Gained movement and advance rolls. LoC - lost the dumb MW aura for a larger contagion aura. Also got reroll 1's. Gained movement and advance rolls. Malignant plaguecaster - MW went from 7" to 12" and the staff got 1 more strength Chaos lords and sorcs - now T5 with DR Deathshroud - two weapon profiles and went WS2+. 3W too. Also 2D instead of d3. Gained movement and advance rolls. Kept 4++. Blightlords - 3W. With Axes and the -1T they wound marines on 2+ reroll 1's. Gained movement and advance rolls. Kept 4++ Helbrutes - finally got -1D, which is the new DR anyways. Possessed - better attacks, T5, got DR and plague weapon Noxious Blightbringer - aura improvement and reduces enemy psychic tests Tallyman - changed from a roll of 7 to a roll of 7+ Plague surgeon - instead of rerolling a 1, he now gives a 6+++ Plague marines - 2W now, get the extra attack all the time instead of Hateful. 5 man squads got a wargear nerf but 10 man squads can take much more now Poxwalkers - went from 5+++ to 6+++ but gain natural T4 and are ws4+ full time. Pretty cheap again too Bloat drones - lost the bracket, point reduction on the spitters, and the other weapons are now hitting on 3+ (12 blender attacks too!) Haulers - ws/bs3+ and two melta shots now Chaos spawn - 2d3 attacks now PBC - 3+ to hit, ectoplasm is 3+d3 damage, mortar went to 2. Love it. Even though defilers can't get DR they can still shoot in combat with no penalty, and there is a strat to even shoot blast weapons while in melee. So yeah, our best strats of 8th got nerfed. But now we have a lot better strats overall instead of like 3 good ones and trash. The core change and chaos lord limit was going to happen regardless just like marines. The mono bonus is amazing. I love it. So useful. The legion trait is cool too. I'm still in the party that overall this codex is stronger. Im sorry but anyone who thinks the spitters a decent choice just blows my mind. They were somewhat workable in early 8th but by the end there were garbage. Anyone who thinks that an effective average of 7 S6 Ap -1 D1 hits + 4 S6 Ap-1 D1 attacks is worth it over paying an extra 5 points for a guaranteed 12 S8 AP-2 D2 attacks is mental. The D2 alone makes it work it. Against T3 chaff they are statistically the same, but against everything else the mowers are better. And if you want to get into aura range without stopping the target unit from shooting...well 1, charges happen after shooting, and 2. the aura is only 1" on turn 1, and if you really need to get that aura off but you cant be in combat with the unit, just use a 2CP strat to get it up to a 3" aura. As for the rest. Well a lot of what you said sounds like you are a GW representative lol. Melta going to 2 shots, yea thats the rules for melta. The blightbringers reduced psychic power is a 6" range (its pointless). Dreadnoughts getting DR, no it got duty eternal, it should also have got DR. Yea most people are not saying its a bad codex. Thats crazy. Its just that there a lot of dumb decissions/pointless units/rules/stratagems...hence the title of DG frustrations, and not DG codex sucks Your first posts were very much "this codex sucks". You now trying to change tact to "that's crazy" reads hilarious. Have some self awareness please. Your allowed to change your opinions, but it is indescribably silly when you go out with these ultra bombastic Argh- it's all awful, all stratagems are garbage, relics garbage, units gargage, and now try to describe your initial position as basically just being critical of the dumb decisions regarding some limited stuff. For what it is worth, I agree with some of the points you make in some of your posts, but you are ridiculously high pitched bombastic, it was incredibly apparent that you had not at all spent a couple of hours studying the codex before you ranted away like an idiot. And then it is amazing to me that you are being so caustic towards others here, like the guy who wants to use his plague spitters (I agree, very inferior choice to mower, but if he is playing mostly Admech it can probably work well for him against their infantry, although I would prefer only to use them in Mortarion's Own detachments for the crucial 2 DAM strat). After all, you were the fool who bombastically proclaimed in a whining voice that all statagems were so awful when the truth is that they are not awful at all compared to the old codex, they merely removed the one trick poney stuff and generally improved the others significantly and gave more tactical flexibility. Also, you have extremely questionable logic at times, I too wanted double DR dreeadnoughts, kind of hoped for it since I understood that the leaked rule was for dreadnoughts, but I won't ever complain about it since I knew deep within that it would be unbalanced without a large points hike. Have you even considered what a -2 Dam reduction dreadnought would actually mean ? You have not, I can tell, since there is a massive difference between reducing 1 and 2 damage and I can tell you that without being a good math hammer guy. You haven't given it any thought, you just laser in and focus blindly on what you think you have lost. Also melta getting 2 shots is a valid point, it got better, there is no reason for you to "lol" at him, he is right not you and you should learn some humility. Overall change to Multi-Melta logically means that the unit fires double shots, doesn't matter how you want to spin it and claim it is "outside the codex", your logic is still not sound and there is no reason for you to "lol" at anyone but yourself. As for the Noxious Blightbringer, his -1 to Psyk is his least powerful rule and only relevant in some very few scenarios. The model is still very useful in some lists though, since the + 1 MV can be crucial. I agree that land raiders, defilers and rhinos should have had DR, it is a bit of a glaring omission. The defiler at 175 points is not "garbage" (your favorite word when talking about this Codex), in a list where you have several high Toughness/armour threats and plan to advance on the enemy in an armoured push it seems to be a pretty good choice and will cause problems to many opponents, since it is much superior in melee to the MBH's and has a pretty good cannon with DAM 3. The only reason why it is not a very good choice is because PBC's are so very, very good and the defiler lacks DR. So yeah, most people who have studied the codex says it seems to be a good codex and yes, ranting off like you have done, is in your own words, "crazy", although I would use silly myself as there is nothing crazy about it, it is just immature and dumb (it is not uncommon after all, you just took general negativity on Codex changes to 6th gear, throwing around the word "garbage" left and right in a maddened flurry of artificial negativity). And particularly when you the day after having described something as "garbage" comes with an "actually, it is not so......", and this has happened several times, and to be blunt, I don't appreciate hyperbole when taken to such ridiculous levels as you have done as it generates a negativity that absolutely no one needs. Its incredibly frustrating when I literally say things like "The HQs are not bad" or "-1T is amazing" and people are saying I am saying the codex is , I never once said that. Again, for the 100000000th time. The codex is good, its actually very strong, but there are some really pointless units/rules/stratagems which force you to play a very specific way. And I am talking from a semi-competitve list here. And by that I mean you are taking a battalion, and trying to fit it around some fluff, but still not take crap units. As such, when you have to take 2 HQs, and one of them will most deffinetly be a plague caster, why would you take a LoC/LoV etc over a daemon prince? Why are you going to take a preditor/defiler etc over a PBC when taking one will actually make your list weaker? As for stratagems, again yes there are some good ones, but the good ones cost a lot of CP, so anyone who things spending 3CP for blight bombardment, or 2 CP to do a single MW to units within 7" is good is just mental. However if you want me to go thought what is super stong then i will -1T Aura Daemon Prince (Still amazing with 8 S8 AP-2 D2 attacks, and the relic for re-roll hit and wounds) Possessed (These guys are just amazing, I would rate them way above blight lord terminators just for the simple fact that they are much cheaper and can use Cloud of Flies far more effectivly). PBC with entropy cannon. Finally, 3 of them can actually kill a rhino. Drones with mowers. Actually a terrifying unit. With the loss of arch contaminator, i really feel like mowers is the only way to go. Use them to soak up fire and then throw them into primaris marines, and they just destroy units. Chaos Spawn. Just such amazing objective holders, but can cost a lot of CP. Personaly i would only take 1 unit of 3 The tallyman, blightspawn, and putrifier are all near must takes depending on the list. PM are ok. I think spamming them will be hard, but i would nearly always take a unit of them Poxwalkers became affordable and I would nearly always take 2 units of 20 Blightlords/Deathsrouds are good. MBH are expensive, but if playing poxmongers, 1 unit of 3 with a 4++, and reducing number of shots by 1 can be incredibly strong. Mortarion The bad LoC/LoV have aura's that are just too weak Cultist should have gone and been replaced by nurglings (even if they didnt get OS or filled up a compulsory troops choice etc) Chaos lord in terminator armour should be removed. This is just codex filling. The limits on the number of chaos lords and poxwalkers you could take should not have been implemented. Especially on poxwalkers. If somebody wants to have done a full zombie horde army they should be allowed Land raiders, predators, defilers, hellbrutes, rhinos (and spawn) should all have gotten DR. I dont get the new terrain thing. I am paying points for something I can get for free by setting up terrain in the right way. At 1st I thought maybe you could set it up after deployment and just throw it down somewhere to completley block off an area from movement, but as it can be shot (and more importantly charged) and dies very easily, you cant even really do that. The secondary objectives are garbage. The way the contagion rules are written is very confusing. The only ones I see are the -1T aura, and then 1 character can get one as a WLT, but the way it is written seems like there should be more. The pathogens are hilariously way to expensive for what they do. The only ones i can see being taken are the additional Ap, the 6s get extra hits, and maybe re-roll number of shots on the blightspawn (for a S8 gun). Most people were running drones and PBC with spitters, these are now pointless and should have gotten a buff. Most people were running PM in units that are now illegal. It should have been 2 special weapons/5 man unit. Therefore if somebody wanted they could run 1 BL and 1 PG, but for those of us who built for 8th you could run 2 BL etc. Too many rules are way to unit/weapon/core/phase specific. Stop rowing, you'll sink. Just have some self awareness and read your own posts and take a look at the stuff you posted when some of us were reading the codex and not understanding what on earth you were raging so incredibly hard about. I have nothing against you personally but you spewed too much ultra negative hyperbole for no reason and it is annoying to many, and that doesn't mean that we are GW fanboys. Take a look at the quotes that Kallas highlighted, you have said it is all in various rants, or I wouldn't have claimed it, since I don't do massive exaggerations or hyperbole, and I don't criticise other people for no reason, and if so I will apologice. To be clear, I will never criticise you again without very good reason and I am done with this. Hope I never have a dispute with you or anyone else in the future. Not out to get you at all. As I said, above, some of the things you have said I agree with, like weapon load outs and lack of HQ options and lack of DR for rhinos, defiler and Land raiders and indeed imbalance concerning certain units (like drones with questionable costed load-outs versus mower). All very good points. But that wasn't what I criticised at all. Anyway, I am done concerning this but I dislike the dishonesty in your claims in your post. Be honest and admit that you went totally overboard instead. Better that way and much easier to respect. But all good anyway. We are all just trying to enjoy our favorite toys anyway. No real harm done to anyone or anything. Ah sorry, i had never actually read the codex when writing this review, i was just making :cuss up. Having now read the codex I can see how wrong i was. The rules for playing death guard are just amazing and every unit is balanced. There is clearly a reason to take a LoC/LoV/CL over a daemon prince Everything has DR None of the units feel like filler for the codex I am able to use the PM units I had in 8th without ripping off arms I dont need to go out an drop £100 on mortarion to stay competitive I dont need to start ripping of the spewers and adding mowers/entrops cannons to my vehicles. Wait a minute...... I dont mind being critisised but give reason for you response other that "this codex is amazing so please be quiet" or "this codex is good because we got stuff which should have been in the inital codex like +1 wound, re-roll 1's and WS/BS 3+ daemon engines". CSM will be getting this in the near future. This is not a reason to play DG but a reason to play chaos. If you are going to critise tell me why I am wrong. Say something like "the LoV is actually great because you can do X". Dont say "the LoV is amazing he gives an extra AP on core plague weapons in shooting". Yes i know, i can read, its a :cuss rule because its effect is pathetic for such a limited affected models. Why would you ever take cultists? And dont say "because they are a cheap way of doing actions". Yes i know, again, i can read rules. I would generally have a tallyman, or some support characters that dont need to shoot, fight, or do psychic actions and as such can do actions. I look at the entire codex in its whole and not just individual units. So when people come to me and say "DG are amazing because we got 2 shot Multi-Melta" well im sorry but i cant take them seriosuly because that just some GW fan boy :cuss right there. DG are incridibly strong, but its not because we got 2 shot multi-meltas Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/368613-dg-frustrations/page/3/#findComment-5658161 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 Look, whatever man. You do you. I don't care anymore. I have explained everything I have written perfectly well, including any criticism of you and you know that perfectly well. I wouldn't even have commented haven't you been so caustic towards Putrid Choir and those arguing that it wasn't all :cuss like you claimed, I would have just ignored your rants, smirking privately at the hyperbole without commenting; though eventually I felt you deserved a slap due to your use of sarcasm towards Putrid Choir. You were not that nice to him, you sought to belittle him with your superior knowledge of the game. I noticed your sarcasm, and when I have then read post after post of, quite frankly, hysterical hyperbole from you, I decided you speak up. But you can spin your story however you want, I no longer take any interest or offense in any case, though I lose respect when someone is dishonest like this and fervently deny what they have previously said. Special Officer Doofy and Marshal Loss 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/368613-dg-frustrations/page/3/#findComment-5658166 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 You’ve been spewing ridiculous drivel over several threads. You blanket your posts with almost incoherent rantings on things that make almost no sense, to the point it is difficult for us to pick out specific points to try and engage you with. Then you double back on your previous points only to triple down on your original points all over again. We have described to you how several of your griefs are legitimate and how many are flawed, yet you still push forwards like you haven’t read a damn thing any of us have typed. And that you then say you never called the codex or it’s rules garbage is an outright lie. It’s fine to take issue with rules or a codex release, and you are entitled to opinions and posts saying so, but as I said to you days ago, it got old incredibly quickly and you’re not being fair in your assessments and responses to our interactions with you. You posting these things in the forum become public domain for all of us, and we don’t have to accept this deluge of negativity without some pushback. To focus on someone saying we get two meltashots now as an argument to how we’re being unfair to your posts is incredibly tone deaf and insincere, making the rest of your posts a waste of time at best. I hope the few people who have been defending you can see this and ease off; you don’t deserve it. As before, enough already. Well said. Special Officer Doofy 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/368613-dg-frustrations/page/3/#findComment-5658168 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgascoine011 Posted January 24, 2021 Author Share Posted January 24, 2021 You’ve been spewing ridiculous drivel over several threads. You blanket your posts with almost incoherent rantings on things that make almost no sense, to the point it is difficult for us to pick out specific points to try and engage you with. Then you double back on your previous points only to triple down on your original points all over again. We have described to you how several of your griefs are legitimate and how many are flawed, yet you still push forwards like you haven’t read a damn thing any of us have typed. And that you then say you never called the codex or it’s rules garbage is an outright lie. It’s fine to take issue with rules or a codex release, and you are entitled to opinions and posts saying so, but as I said to you days ago, it got old incredibly quickly and you’re not being fair in your assessments and responses to our interactions with you. You posting these things in the forum become public domain for all of us, and we don’t have to accept this deluge of negativity without some pushback. To focus on someone saying we get two meltashots now as an argument to how we’re being unfair to your posts is incredibly tone deaf and insincere, making the rest of your posts a waste of time at best. I hope the few people who have been defending you can see this and ease off; you don’t deserve it. As before, enough already. Oh yes, I see now how the LoV is a decent choice.... Literally i started this post, said what my complaints were. The 2nd thing i posted was "dont get me wrong, some of the rules are incredibly strong" but somehow I :cussting all over the codex??? The 2 shot melta rule was just an example as it was a long post. I just hate it when people quote rules at you as if i cant read. Like saying the plague surgeon now gives a 6+++ instead of re-roll 1s. The maths is hard to do due to changes in DR, but its not much better. And I was more annoyed as he was just quoting rules which I even said were good: The entropy cannons are good, the tallyman, biologius and blightspawn are good. Possessed and some other units are incridible. But do not say that the LoC is good, or that Land Raiders etc should not have DR, etc etc. And if you do, say why they are good without quoting the rules. I have stated why something like a defiler is bad in a DG army. Saying I am wrong because X,Y and Z are good does not mean the defiler is bad or that i think the codex is bad. It means i think the defiler is bad (and to be 100% clear, bad in DG, not bad in general). Oh and another thing. Everyone is saying about how the grenade strat has gone because it was too powerful, and I am the one who is saying how incredibly strong it is and thats its even better than before, but just written in an incredibly dumb way. Anyway, I am actually looking to get challanged. I actually want debate. I have a beautifuly painted defiler, LoC and dreadnought that I want to use, so I actually want to post something saying these units are crap in the hopes that someone will say actually they are good because you can do X,Y and Z with it. But I all i get is people shouting "THE DEFILER IS GREAT BECAUSE ITS GOT WS/BS3+ AND POSSESD AND BLIGHT LORDS ARE AMAZING YOU JUST HATE THE CODEX" Yes, very constructive feedback that is Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/368613-dg-frustrations/page/3/#findComment-5658192 Share on other sites More sharing options...
McElMcNinja Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 Let’s talk about the DP, he can have a sword and wings or spewer? Is that combo so over powered that he can’t have both wings and a spewer. Or he can have 2 talons or an axe plus wings, but no spewer, really? Is a D6 shot, S5, -1AP, 1D weapon so powerful you couldn’t possibly get that and 2” inch more movement? These guys (GW) must really have some horrible play testers to think that is over the top. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/368613-dg-frustrations/page/3/#findComment-5658208 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulwyf Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 I think with how this is going it might be best to close the topic. The OP has expressed his thoughts and people have had a chance to respond. Watching this last page unfold makes me point to my first sentence with greater emphasis. Plaguecaster 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/368613-dg-frustrations/page/3/#findComment-5658210 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debauchery101 Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 I think with how this is going it might be best to close the topic. The OP has expressed his thoughts and people have had a chance to respond. Watching this last page unfold makes me point to my first sentence with greater emphasis. I agree. Mostly because people keep restarting dialogue on the same stuff discussed in 3 other active topics. Also some of yall posting in the most annoying way via quoting 2 pages of text.... Bulwyf 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/368613-dg-frustrations/page/3/#findComment-5658211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tangoalphatwo Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 I just want to say. I’m not a big player... mostly collector, and I paint like :cuss. I mostly just enjoy your guys comments, input, and virtual company. I hate to see us get mad at each other. Sorry lads. Hope all of us can remember what we share in common before we get :cussty with each other. Sorry. I sound like a hippy. Bulwyf and Iron Sage 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/368613-dg-frustrations/page/3/#findComment-5658213 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plaguecaster Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 (edited) I still find a good portion of the book like dumb hq restrictions to be utter garbage as well as annoyance on stuff like defilers and other vehicles not getting any actual DG buffs yeah I'll still use them as I love the units but seriously why no DR they are still daemon engines like the drones or haulers There's still a lot of things I do like with the codex with the contagions able to somewhat make characters slightly more customisable, possessed are great now as well able to fit more of the elite characters in without taking up too much slots. Just wish most were actually hqs or have the option to take death shroud as an hq unit to deal with the stupid hq restrictions Edited January 24, 2021 by Plaguecaster Bulwyf, Iron Sage and Kallas 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/368613-dg-frustrations/page/3/#findComment-5658225 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special Officer Doofy Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 Anyway, I am actually looking to get challanged. I actually want debate. I have a beautifuly painted defiler, LoC and dreadnought that I want to use, so I actually want to post something saying these units are crap in the hopes that someone will say actually they are good because you can do X,Y and Z with it. But I all i get is people shouting "THE DEFILER IS GREAT BECAUSE ITS GOT WS/BS3+ AND POSSESD AND BLIGHT LORDS ARE AMAZING YOU JUST HATE THE CODEX" Yes, very constructive feedback that is I don't know what else anyone can tell you at this point between your lies and hypocrisy. You did say the codex is hot garbage before, as kallas pointed out even though you are saying you didn't. You say you want to be "challenged", but all you say back to people is what you are accusing them of (not presenting an argument and dismissing). No one is shouting at you. I gave a long list with how over 75% of the units got directly better and why, and instead of replying item by item to each point I made and trying to challenge me back, you labeled me a GW fan boy and dismissed it all, even though I'm pretty critical of GW and have had posts hidden because they were so negative about GW and it's business practices. For example on the bloat Drone. The spitters didn't get weaker at all because the other options became better. It actually became better as well because of the large points drop and keeps max strength instead of bracketing down to 4. That's awesome. I love options. Sure, the mower seems like a more ideal choice at this time, but to be honest, I see a points increase coming for it, because it is one of the best units in the book for the points. I can't think of another unit for around 135pts that gets 12 S7 -2ap 2D (-1T) plague weapon attacks with a T7 9W -1D 3+/5++ body that can fly. That's 5 points less than a Maulerfiend and it poops all over one. Just because the mower is so good doesn't mean the spitters is garbage, it just means the mower is so good. You point out the plague surgeon example. The math is not hard. You have a 1/3 to pull off the old 5+++, and he gave a reroll on a 1. That's a 1/6 roll to get another shot at a 1/3 roll, or a 1/18 improved chance to not get wounded (5.56%). The new one just adds a 6+++, so a 1/6 (16.66%). The math was simple, and he offers over 3 times the amount of survival that he used to. I'm not saying he's great and I'm not saying he's going in my lists, but he did get better from the last codex. Just like most of the units in the new codex. I'd still be willing to debate (let's not even call it challenge or argue) each of the examples I gave you if you'd like. The best part about the new codex is the internal balance it brings. The old codex only had a few competitive units and strats, so if you did not take them you were gimping yourself. The new codex balanced things out pretty well, made more units and more strats viable and competitive. Iron Sage, Kallas and Marshal Loss 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/368613-dg-frustrations/page/3/#findComment-5658305 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgascoine011 Posted January 24, 2021 Author Share Posted January 24, 2021 Anyway, I am actually looking to get challanged. I actually want debate. I have a beautifuly painted defiler, LoC and dreadnought that I want to use, so I actually want to post something saying these units are crap in the hopes that someone will say actually they are good because you can do X,Y and Z with it. But I all i get is people shouting "THE DEFILER IS GREAT BECAUSE ITS GOT WS/BS3+ AND POSSESD AND BLIGHT LORDS ARE AMAZING YOU JUST HATE THE CODEX" Yes, very constructive feedback that is I don't know what else anyone can tell you at this point between your lies and hypocrisy. You did say the codex is hot garbage before, as kallas pointed out even though you are saying you didn't. You say you want to be "challenged", but all you say back to people is what you are accusing them of (not presenting an argument and dismissing). No one is shouting at you. I gave a long list with how over 75% of the units got directly better and why, and instead of replying item by item to each point I made and trying to challenge me back, you labeled me a GW fan boy and dismissed it all, even though I'm pretty critical of GW and have had posts hidden because they were so negative about GW and it's business practices. For example on the bloat Drone. The spitters didn't get weaker at all because the other options became better. It actually became better as well because of the large points drop and keeps max strength instead of bracketing down to 4. That's awesome. I love options. Sure, the mower seems like a more ideal choice at this time, but to be honest, I see a points increase coming for it, because it is one of the best units in the book for the points. I can't think of another unit for around 135pts that gets 12 S7 -2ap 2D (-1T) plague weapon attacks with a T7 9W -1D 3+/5++ body that can fly. That's 5 points less than a Maulerfiend and it poops all over one. Just because the mower is so good doesn't mean the spitters is garbage, it just means the mower is so good. You point out the plague surgeon example. The math is not hard. You have a 1/3 to pull off the old 5+++, and he gave a reroll on a 1. That's a 1/6 roll to get another shot at a 1/3 roll, or a 1/18 improved chance to not get wounded (5.56%). The new one just adds a 6+++, so a 1/6 (16.66%). The math was simple, and he offers over 3 times the amount of survival that he used to. I'm not saying he's great and I'm not saying he's going in my lists, but he did get better from the last codex. Just like most of the units in the new codex. I'd still be willing to debate (let's not even call it challenge or argue) each of the examples I gave you if you'd like. The best part about the new codex is the internal balance it brings. The old codex only had a few competitive units and strats, so if you did not take them you were gimping yourself. The new codex balanced things out pretty well, made more units and more strats viable and competitive. When did i say the codex was bad? I actually did once say it was crap, before writing a list that seemed incredibly strong, so you know, it was a joke. I supposed we just have different views on internal balance. A daemon prince is just far superior to the other LotDG. In heavy support you have 1, mayyyyybe 2 options, with the PBC and defiler The mower drone is by far the superior option...but to be fair, the other 2 options are decent depending on list. The only one with some sort of balance is the elite selection with possessed, BL and DS all being amazing, and the characers are all pretty good. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/368613-dg-frustrations/page/3/#findComment-5658325 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 When did i say the codex was bad? lol What the actual . How are people defending this piece of garbage codex. Anyway I agree with Bulwyf, this topic should be closed. I'm all for thinking critically about aspects of the codex but that should be done on topics dedicated to specific issues, not one giant negative "101 frustrations with the new DG book: #76 will surprise you!". Doesn't create a good atmosphere & relevant points are getting buried in walls of text mooftak, Kallas, Bulwyf and 2 others 5 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/368613-dg-frustrations/page/3/#findComment-5658331 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azekai Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 (edited) I think we should close the topics praising the codex, lol. In seriousness, Tired of you guys crapping on Jgascoine because he has the audacity to call a spade a spade. The codex does suck precisely because it is so uneven. There are good options, but there are plenty of terrible units and wargear (why are spitters garbage when fleshmowers are amazing? Who knows). There are a lot of head scratching choices that make the faction feel bad to play. Edited January 24, 2021 by Azekai Plaguecaster and Jorgend Lupus 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/368613-dg-frustrations/page/3/#findComment-5658428 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 (edited) Ok, I think that's enough for now. The discussion has become more about the people involved than the actual codex content, and we're going in circles, time to cool off. If anyone has [good] reason to re-open, PM, me. Some general forum stuff: 1) Please try not to blindly quote walls of text. No only does it diminish any point you're trying to make, it's really annoying to scroll through. Quote post, then delete any points you aren't replying to. Be concise and your argument will hold more weight. Once your post gets to 100+ lines long (with quotes)...any comment you add loses all meaning. 2) You're allowed to change your mind, but remember there is a black and white record of everything said in the discussion so far. 3) If there is another frater you just seem diametrically opposed to (thanks to the range of human psyches, we all have them), the 'ignore' setting exists. EDIT: 2/2/21 I've unlocked this for now, in case anyone has anything to add after a week of cold clarity, but I'll be keeping an eye on it. Edited February 2, 2021 by Xenith Kallas, Marshal Loss, Metzombie and 4 others 7 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/368613-dg-frustrations/page/3/#findComment-5658775 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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