Do Hellblasters work well in BA army

[Burias-Drak'shal]

Thinking of starting a new blood Angel army and am wondering if Hellblasters work well in a blood angels army ?

[Xenith]

I think they work well in pretty much any army! They are destructive, so will be a priority for opponents to kill, so might need protection like an Impulsor.

 

I've heard good things about the 3 shot assault version. 

[Karhedron]

Hellbasters are decent although there is nothing that makes them better for BAs than any other Chapter.

If you want massed plasma, I prefer Plasma Inceptors. Point for point they have more shots than the Assault Blaster but have the S7/8 profile of the RF variant. Plus they have the advantage of being jump infantry which means they are more mobile and don't need points invested in a Transport. They can keep up with Jump Captains for rerolls and/or Jump Sanguinary Priests for healing.

Plus Jump Packs just seem more Blood Angely to me.

[Majkhel]

Hellbasters are decent although there is nothing that makes them better for BAs than any other Chapter.

If you want massed plasma, I prefer Plasma Inceptors. Point for point they have more shots than the Assault Blaster but have the S7/8 profile of the RF variant. Plus they have the advantage of being jump infantry which means they are more mobile and don't need points invested in a Transport. They can keep up with Jump Captains for rerolls and/or Jump Sanguinary Priests for healing.

Plus Jump Packs just seem more Blood Angely to me.

Plus Inceptors are eligible for the +1 to hit from Descent of Angels strat

[Xenith]

 

Plus they have the advantage of being jump infantry which means they are more mobile and don't need points invested in a Transport. 

 

On this, the transport was more so they don't die immediately - you can also put them into strategic reserves for CP, which keeps them off board.

[Karhedron]

 

Plus they have the advantage of being jump infantry which means they are more mobile and don't need points invested in a Transport.

 

On this, the transport was more so they don't die immediately - you can also put them into strategic reserves for CP, which keeps them off board.

 

Good point. Inceptors can be put in Reserve for free which is another point in their favour. If you are going second, you might even be able to bring them in T1 in your own DZ and still shoot if the opponent is playing aggressively.

 

Or you wait until T2 to come on. Either way, this works very well with Descent of Angels as Majkhel suggests.

[Helias_Tancred]

I think they work well in pretty much any army! They are destructive, so will be a priority for opponents to kill, so might need protection like an Impulsor.

 

I've heard good things about the 3 shot assault version. 

 

They usually do good work for me. I normally run two combat squads with the 3 shot assault incinerator. In 1k games I use a captain and lieutenant with them and its straight up point and delete!

 

 

Plus they have the advantage of being jump infantry which means they are more mobile and don't need points invested in a Transport.

 

On this, the transport was more so they don't die immediately - you can also put them into strategic reserves for CP, which keeps them off board.

 

Good point. Inceptors can be put in Reserve for free which is another point in their favour. If you are going second, you might even be able to bring them in T1 in your own DZ and still shoot if the opponent is playing aggressively.

 

Or you wait until T2 to come on. Either way, this works very well with Descent of Angels as Majkhel suggests.

 

 

Plasma inceptors have better mobility, they're tougher, but they are more challenging to use well because of their 18" range. I've still kept to hellblasters for my plasma needs.

[YogiDaAngel]

One thing in discussion on plasmaceptors vs hellblasters. Inceptors are more of the threat and they will be focused down and be number 1 target priority when they show up, hellblasters are way less threatening when you bring some eradicators or redemptor or even our glorious golden wing boys. 

You can run hellblasters without support if you want and they will pull decent numbers all by themselves and if you over charge it's only 33 pts per model so not 55 like inceptors. 
If you start them on board which I recommend you will get more value from them then inceptors. I don't like reserving/DS things that can shoot good weapons because it feels like waste for me in turn 1 which could start to make some advantage for my melee guys. 

Inceptors are great and all but they need investment they will tempt you to move sang priest for ress they want captain aura it all adds up in units which are needed more near our melee guys not shooting units. Shooting units for BA should be good in supporting melee not main concentration for buffs and support characters and hellblasters are ideal for that with assault weapons or heavy ones they can pull weight by themselves. 

[Burias-Drak'shal]

So sounds like next thought then is how to get both in list to double the plasma threat as they both sound like good units when used in there correct roles.

[Karhedron]

So sounds like next thought then is how to get both in list to double the plasma threat as they both sound like good units when used in there correct roles.

I would go for one or the other personally because both will want the same kind of support. Inceptors will probably want a Captain with Bike or Jump Pack to keep up with them. Hellblasters are likely to want a Captain nearby too.

 

The reason for this is that the value from both units really comes when they overcharge. This allows them to one-shot Marines and pose a real threat to vehicles. If you don't overcharge, you will struggle to make back the points invested. Overcharging is risky though and you really want a Captain nearby to reroll those 1s or you will lose a significant fraction of the squad whenever you overcharge.

 

The other thing to consider is that an in creasing number of units are getting the rule that reduces incoming damage by 1 point (Wave Serpents, Dreadnoughts, Death Guard). This rule is absolutely brutal against plasma as it halves the damage output which is crucial against anything with more than one wound. Rather than having a double-dose of plasma, I would back the plasma up with some dedicated anti-tank such as Melta. So for instance, your squad of Inceptors could be partnered with a squad of Attack bikes with multi-meltas and both units accompanied by a Captain to boost their shooting. Alternatively, your Hellbasters could be backed up by some Eradicators, again with a Captain nearby.

 

There are plenty of ideas you can play about with but investing in lots of the same type of firepower is risky as it leaves your army srtuggling if you run into the hard-counter to that kind of firepower.

[Vermintide]

I prefer Dreadnoughts using the Wisdom of the Ancients stratagem to provide re-roll support for units like Hellblasters.

 

Their cheapest build comes with an assault cannon, which is S6 and 24", which synergises nicely with the assault variant of the plasma incinerator for target priority. When we can only take one captain, it's a steep opportunity cost to have him hang back and support shooting units, since we'd really prefer to have a BA captain leading the charge. Of course Dreads are still very handy in combat, so if they're still alive by turn 3/4 they should be reaching the thick of the action with 6 attacks that punch harder than a thunder hammer.

 

With regards to the guns, the assault variant is probably the one you want, I think. There are better options (Eradicators) for anti-tank, so I don't think the higher strength of the other variants is as valuable, whereas the weight of fire and manoeuvrability on the assault variant is very desirable. With the change to unmodified 1s, overcharging after an advance is far less suicidal than it was before. The increasing prevalence of -1D, as mentioned above, is another point of consideration in favour of weight of fire over quality of fire, I think. In circumstances where your overcharge is essentially wasted, the main benefit you're getting from Hellblasters is the volume of high AP shots.

 

In conclusion: I like 'em. I think it's a good idea to have a unit like this thinning the enemy's ranks so your melee threats can get stuck in to the juicy stuff unhindered.

[XeonDragon]

I prefer Dreadnoughts using the Wisdom of the Ancients stratagem to provide re-roll support for units like Hellblasters.

 

Their cheapest build comes with an assault cannon, which is S6 and 24", which synergises nicely with the assault variant of the plasma incinerator for target priority. When we can only take one captain, it's a steep opportunity cost to have him hang back and support shooting units, since we'd really prefer to have a BA captain leading the charge. Of course Dreads are still very handy in combat, so if they're still alive by turn 3/4 they should be reaching the thick of the action with 6 attacks that punch harder than a thunder hammer.

 

With regards to the guns, the assault variant is probably the one you want, I think. There are better options (Eradicators) for anti-tank, so I don't think the higher strength of the other variants is as valuable, whereas the weight of fire and manoeuvrability on the assault variant is very desirable. With the change to unmodified 1s, overcharging after an advance is far less suicidal than it was before. The increasing prevalence of -1D, as mentioned above, is another point of consideration in favour of weight of fire over quality of fire, I think. In circumstances where your overcharge is essentially wasted, the main benefit you're getting from Hellblasters is the volume of high AP shots.

 

In conclusion: I like 'em. I think it's a good idea to have a unit like this thinning the enemy's ranks so your melee threats can get stuck in to the juicy stuff unhindered.

 

I can confirm that dreadnought supporting the assault (3 shot) variant of the hellblasters works a treat :)

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

I think they work well in pretty much any army! They are destructive, so will be a priority for opponents to kill, so might need protection like an Impulsor.

 

I've heard good things about the 3 shot assault version.

They usually do good work for me. I normally run two combat squads with the 3 shot assault incinerator. In 1k games I use a captain and lieutenant with them and its straight up point and delete!

 

 

Plus they have the advantage of being jump infantry which means they are more mobile and don't need points invested in a Transport.

On this, the transport was more so they don't die immediately - you can also put them into strategic reserves for CP, which keeps them off board.

Good point. Inceptors can be put in Reserve for free which is another point in their favour. If you are going second, you might even be able to bring them in T1 in your own DZ and still shoot if the opponent is playing aggressively.

 

Or you wait until T2 to come on. Either way, this works very well with Descent of Angels as Majkhel suggests.

Plasma inceptors have better mobility, they're tougher, but they are more challenging to use well because of their 18" range. I've still kept to hellblasters for my plasma needs.

i say, why not both?

[Morticon]

One of the nice things about the HBs (when compared to the Inceptors) is not simply their damage output and mid board mobility.  They fulfill a very different battlefield role. 

 

BA armies favour aggressive play and playstyle.  This means that you're constantly moving up, engaging and (at least trying) to push the enemy back.  Because of this, you leave your backline vulnerable.  You wind up having to invest units like Infiltrators or Incursors or Intercessors to backfield roles where all they contribute is a few bolter shots in order to cap an objective or complete an action. 

 

Hellblasters (or devastators) fulfill a really nice niche in a BA list where backfield support is provided. Their range (especially on the solid heavy weapon option) means that they provide consistent and reliable firepower on a Primaris body (so transhuman can see some play if needed).

 

Id build the heavy variant personally and keep them as backfield campers. This means that the enemy has to invest firepower to take these guys out on the backline, dluting some of the firepower on the front.  And if he cannot because of forward pressure, then they continue to throw down reliable fair damage shots.

 

All the while they are able to camp on an objective that would otherwise just be capped by another unit that is best used elsewhere,

Edited February 11, 2021 by Morticon

[Helias_Tancred]

One of the nice things about the HBs (when compared to the Inceptors) is not simply their damage output and mid board mobility.  They fulfill a very different battlefield role. 

 

BA armies favour aggressive play and playstyle.  This means that you're constantly moving up, engaging and (at least trying) to push the enemy back.  Because of this, you leave your backline vulnerable.  You wind up having to invest units like Infiltrators or Incursors or Intercessors to backfield roles where all they contribute is a few bolter shots in order to cap an objective or complete an action. 

 

Hellblasters (or devastators) fulfill a really nice niche in a BA list where backfield support is provided. Their range (especially on the solid heavy weapon option) means that they provide consistent and reliable firepower on a Primaris body (so transhuman can see some play if needed).

 

Id build the heavy variant personally and keep them as backfield campers. This means that the enemy has to invest firepower to take these guys out on the backline, dluting some of the firepower on the front.  And if he cannot because of forward pressure, then they continue to throw down reliable fair damage shots.

 

All the while they are able to camp on an objective that would otherwise just be capped by another unit that is best used elsewhere,

 

Great idea!

 

As this thread indicates we often get stuck choosing between plasma inceptors and hellblasters with the assault incinerators because of mobility and volume of strong shots. But indeed what you described with the heavy plasma incinerators serves a role even with a more assaulty-army such as ours, I know because I have used them with my Dark Angels. In the latter they do exactly what you desribed, while I have a squad of rapid fire plasma incinerators moving up the board to a better position (yeah I'm THAT DA guy that sometimes brings 2 hellblaster squads lol).

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’d rather spend the points on Eradicators.

[Helias_Tancred]

I’d rather spend the points on Eradicators.

 

After my game yesterday against Black Templars, that's a hard statement to argue against ;)

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

One of the nice things about the HBs (when compared to the Inceptors) is not simply their damage output and mid board mobility.  They fulfill a very different battlefield role. 

 

BA armies favour aggressive play and playstyle.  This means that you're constantly moving up, engaging and (at least trying) to push the enemy back.  Because of this, you leave your backline vulnerable.  You wind up having to invest units like Infiltrators or Incursors or Intercessors to backfield roles where all they contribute is a few bolter shots in order to cap an objective or complete an action. 

 

Hellblasters (or devastators) fulfill a really nice niche in a BA list where backfield support is provided. Their range (especially on the solid heavy weapon option) means that they provide consistent and reliable firepower on a Primaris body (so transhuman can see some play if needed).

 

Id build the heavy variant personally and keep them as backfield campers. This means that the enemy has to invest firepower to take these guys out on the backline, dluting some of the firepower on the front.  And if he cannot because of forward pressure, then they continue to throw down reliable fair damage shots.

 

All the while they are able to camp on an objective that would otherwise just be capped by another unit that is best used elsewhere,

i was planning to use heavy intercessors for this role. T5 will make them tough to kill, and all those bolter shots will be a threat to most infantry.

I’d rather spend the points on Eradicators.

short ranged low numbers, niche use, vs long range, wide variety of uses, and larger numbers

 

to each his own i guess.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Range isn’t a big deal with the small table top size.

[Spagunk]

Range isn’t a big deal with the small table top size.

Not sure about everywhere else but all my local places still do 6'x4' for tables. YMMV I suppose.

[Karhedron]

 

Range isn’t a big deal with the small table top size.

Not sure about everywhere else but all my local places still do 6'x4' for tables. YMMV I suppose.

 

Technically that will skew the game balance somewhat. Longer ranged and more mobile units will be stronger, short ranged and slower units will be weaker than they should be for the points.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

Range isn’t a big deal with the small table top size.

Not sure about everywhere else but all my local places still do 6'x4' for tables. YMMV I suppose.

 

ya that's what i'd like to do. i think the small table sizes are stupid, especially when it comes to hoard armies at like 2000 points, infantry based guard, nids, and orks can't have too much room to deploy let alone move on these new smaller table sizes.

 

 

Range isn’t a big deal with the small table top size.

Not sure about everywhere else but all my local places still do 6'x4' for tables. YMMV I suppose.

 

Technically that will skew the game balance somewhat. Longer ranged and more mobile units will be stronger, short ranged and slower units will be weaker than they should be for the points.

 

and GW pointlessly skewed the game against shooty armies anyway.

 

cheaper shooty armies just means more models on smaller tables for those armies, which means harder to actually hide your units.

all around i think the new table sizes is going to be a flop.

[Karhedron]

all around i think the new table sizes is going to be a flop.

I notice the new table size is very close to the size of a standard dining table (if there is such a thing). I would not be surprised if that factored into GW's thinking.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

all around i think the new table sizes is going to be a flop.

I notice the new table size is very close to the size of a standard dining table (if there is such a thing). I would not be surprised if that factored into GW's thinking.

 

maybe kitchen table, but all the dining room tables i've seen in my life are a lot bigger than these boards.

[DistractionTacMarine]

What do you mean when you say the new table sizes will be a flop? Tournaments and you tubers have seemingly switched over with no issues and no complaints. Overall feedback I’ve seen/read has been positive, especially for smaller games.