PriMarneus vs. Gman

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Note this thread is not for wishlisting what you want them to be.

 

So that said let’s discuss the merits of bringing PriMarneus vs. Roboute...

 

PRIMARNEUS:

One less wound than Roboute

Less movement restrictions

Can have wounds restored by apothecary

Can ride in a Repulsor (not great)

 

ROBOUTE:

+ Higher damage output

Don’t need a Lieutenant

Reroll 1s for all Imperial units - for example, combos well with Eversor assassin

 

Both can be absolutely monster in melee, especially when buffed.

[mel_danes]

BBF would you consider target size/priority a factor to be discussed?
I've only ever played with Primarneus, I own R but have not built him.

Edited February 13, 2021 by mel_danes

[Medjugorje]

In new edition i didnt played Roboute but PriMC is strong. I could imagine that Roboute is the better option because the better buffs, and better output.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

BBF would you consider target size/priority a factor to be discussed?

I've only ever played with Primarneus, I own R but have not built him.

yes I would.

[greatcrusade08]

another factor is list building BIG G is a lord of war, whereas Primarneus can be a hq slot in a batallion

[Seahawk]

Guilliman can't do this either:

 

 

THEY SEE ME ROLLIN, THEY HATIN

[Brother Sergeant Scarus]

I've played a lot with both of them, and I think there's a huge amount to consider -

Calgar:

Quite a bit cheaper
Regenerates CP (so a net increase in most games vs Guilliman)
Infantry and is therefor able to move through walls and be healed by apothecaries
Dangerous melee and reasonable gun gives solid personal output
Surprisingly resilient with the 2+/4++ and halves incoming damage

Guilliman:

Far scarier output (don't underestimate how useful the damage 4 fist is) - even harder to tarpit now he can shoot in engagement.
Unique (to Space Marines) AoE re-rolls to hit which is much more relevant after the change to Chapter Master.
Better force amplification; 12" of +1 to advances and charges, re-roll 1s to hit for Imperium within 12"
12" Aura of re-roll failed morale tests, allso much more relevant after changes to "And They Shall Know No Fear"
Warlord Trait is much more useful in 9th, for fighting over objectives and combined with units like Bladeguard
Benefits more, in practical terms, for Victrix Guard support than Calgar does. They really make Guilliman hard to take down.

Guilliman provides more unique buffs to Space Marines compared to the 8th edition codex and, indeed, how the 9th edition supplements work now. I understand the point that Marneus can be taken as part of a batallion, but I find in practice Space Marines usually take 3 HQ choices anyway, so it's less of a concern - I've found myself running Tigurius and a Chaplain quite a lot, for example. 

My personal experiences of Guilliman are that you have to find the right balance of using him as a force amplifier and leveraging his personal output. If you try and do too much of one thing specifically, it can kind of be a waste of a valuable piece. Used reasonably he's also a pretty solid 5 points for While We Stand We Fight (if your army can take that secondary successfully). But having him as a counter punch unit is just so handy, he deals with all sorts of threats that Calgar wouldn't be able to. 

All of that said, Calgar is definitely not a bad choice by any means and it's hard to discount the points difference. If you take Calgar you could also take a Redemptor for the same price as Guilliman. 

I will say that Guilliman's bonuses to charges, and re-rolling 1s at 12", come up time and again as really handy in my games. I guess it depends on what's in the rest of your army, as to which of them will be the most useful.

I also acknowledge that part of me really likes using him because he's a Primarch, and that's something no other loyalist chapter can do! :) 



 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Great analysis !

[space wolf]

I've played a lot with both of them, and I think there's a huge amount to consider -

Calgar:

Quite a bit cheaper

Regenerates CP (so a net increase in most games vs Guilliman)

Infantry and is therefor able to move through walls and be healed by apothecaries

Dangerous melee and reasonable gun gives solid personal output

Surprisingly resilient with the 2+/4++ and halves incoming damage

Guilliman:

Far scarier output (don't underestimate how useful the damage 4 fist is) - even harder to tarpit now he can shoot in engagement.

Unique (to Space Marines) AoE re-rolls to hit which is much more relevant after the change to Chapter Master.

Better force amplification; 12" of +1 to advances and charges, re-roll 1s to hit for Imperium within 12"

12" Aura of re-roll failed morale tests, allso much more relevant after changes to "And They Shall Know No Fear"

Warlord Trait is much more useful in 9th, for fighting over objectives and combined with units like Bladeguard

Benefits more, in practical terms, for Victrix Guard support than Calgar does. They really make Guilliman hard to take down.

Guilliman provides more unique buffs to Space Marines compared to the 8th edition codex and, indeed, how the 9th edition supplements work now. I understand the point that Marneus can be taken as part of a batallion, but I find in practice Space Marines usually take 3 HQ choices anyway, so it's less of a concern - I've found myself running Tigurius and a Chaplain quite a lot, for example. 

My personal experiences of Guilliman are that you have to find the right balance of using him as a force amplifier and leveraging his personal output. If you try and do too much of one thing specifically, it can kind of be a waste of a valuable piece. Used reasonably he's also a pretty solid 5 points for While We Stand We Fight (if your army can take that secondary successfully). But having him as a counter punch unit is just so handy, he deals with all sorts of threats that Calgar wouldn't be able to. 

All of that said, Calgar is definitely not a bad choice by any means and it's hard to discount the points difference. If you take Calgar you could also take a Redemptor for the same price as Guilliman. 

I will say that Guilliman's bonuses to charges, and re-rolling 1s at 12", come up time and again as really handy in my games. I guess it depends on what's in the rest of your army, as to which of them will be the most useful.

I also acknowledge that part of me really likes using him because he's a Primarch, and that's something no other loyalist chapter can do! :)

 

As someone new to ultramarines and 40k in general (haven't been able to say that in a long time) I found this VERY helpful

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Based on my experience I feel comfortable using PriMarneus in lieu of our Primarch and like having the extra points. Guilliman is still quite good though.

Edited February 16, 2021 by Black Blow Fly

[Ishagu]

Neither is strong enough in close combat. There are rule combinations that can make generic characters that cost 1/3rd the cost of Guilliman hit just as hard. I expect both of these heroes to be upgraded in the next supplement.

 

Right now Guilliman is the better unit than Calgar, no contest.

Edited February 15, 2021 by Ishagu

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Yes but you’re paying for it.

 

I would love to see the build for a character that cost 1/3 the points that hits as hard as Guilliman.

[Ishagu]

It's a no brainer.

 

Guilliman is 100 points more than Calgar and a Lieutenant but has an aura that allows re-rolls of all hits to all Core units around him. Not to mention the other rules on top.

 

Calgar has no place in the army at the moment. Take Guilliman if you want an expensive character or take a generic Captain/CM if you want to save some points.

 

As for characters that hit just as hard. Use a Chaplain on bike with the correct Litanies and Warlord traits/relics, or one of the DA Librarians you can make. It's very easy to have a character that hits just as hard for a fraction of the cost.

 

Both Calgar and Guilliman are over costed, but Calgar is very poor at the moment compared to Guilliman.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Only downside to PriMarneus is his gauntlets inflict d3 damage.

 

Chaplains don’t have the resilency of PriMarneus nor do they provide as many universal buffs. I really don’t care about DA Librarians, this is a discussion revolving around Ultramarines.

Edited February 16, 2021 by Black Blow Fly