How GW should update Guilliman, Calgar and Sicarius!

[Ishagu]

This is just a wish-list topic and nothing more. We've seen what they've done with other big heroes so we can have "educated hopes" about how they might update the rules for the named heroes in the next supplement.

 

 

Guilliman - Drop cost to 350
-Same Stat-line
-Attacking with the Sword grants D6 extra attacks. No longer deals D3 mortal wounds on a roll of 6 to wound, instead automatically deals 1 MW on any hit scored against a unit with the Psyker, Chaos or Daemon keyword.
-Fist is Damage D3 + 3
-Resurrection on a 2+ with D6 wounds (alternatively make this a stratagem)
-Grants 3 CP
-Aura of re-roll all hits for Core/Characters and Aura of re-roll wounds of 1 for Core/Characters
-Aura of +1 to charge/advance rolls
-Scrap the aura that affects Imperium units
-XIII Primarch - Now allows him to have all Ultramarine Warlord traits at the same time

 

 

Calgar - Drop Cost to 170

-Same Stat-line
-Gauntlets are now Flat 3 Damage
-Grants 2 CP
-Same Damage Reduction rules
-CM Aura as normal
-Has Adept of the Codex + 1 Additional Warlord Trait

 

 

Sicarius - Same Cost

-Same Stat-line
-Sword is Str + 2, AP - 4, Damage 2, D3 Mortal Wounds on a roll of 5+
-Other rules stay the same
-Can use the Inspiring Command stratagem for Free

 

 

I think this would be pretty compelling. Makes the heroes more reliable without actually creating any significant power problems on the tabletop. The Ultrmarine Warlord traits are generally tactical and flexible, and not immediately linked to direct damage or durability so if Guilliman could access all of them it doesn't present any problem in my opinion - it just makes him very flexible and adds to the tactical options of the units around him.

 

We've seen how GW has update other characters like Azrael, Mortarion, etc, and my suggestions don't eclipse official rules that already exist. Hopefully they might do something to this effect...

Edited February 18, 2021 by Ishagu

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The rules for Guilliman at the points listed won’t happen.

[Ishagu]

Why not? Mortarion became far, far stronger and had no point increase. The rules I'm suggesting are a lot more thematic, in terms of the effect of the sword and Warlord traits.

 

Maybe leave him at 380 in that case.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Ishagu

[Medjugorje]

I can image that this ruleset become true. Why not. Seems legit

[Brother Ramael]

Calgar at 170 with all that seems a bit much: he's already ( as far as named character go) kind of a standout, I am not sure he needs to rise that much above others.

Bobby G otoh needs to be more, as in seriously more: he is in practice just a "super chapter master", I think he needs some rules to show what a Primarch is ( he suffers a lot from being an "old" superdude).

I would even see it's cost increased but he needs a serious beefing ( picking him or Calgar souldn't be about picking the daddy or chibi version of the same thing).

Since it's something that we've seen already on others , I'd surely start with giving him the 4+ transhuman rule ( how can a Primarch not have that!!), plus I would increase it's ability to shape the battlefield to show it's tactical prowess, like allowing the use of a strategem twice each turn or reducing the cost of strategems by 1  ( to a minimum of one).

Mortarion is a good example of a battlefield shaper, with the -1 to hit and -1T aura; Bobby G. needs to be more of that if we accept that he can't be on par on the brute force side.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Brother Ramael

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’m sure development stealth views forums to write rules.

[Ishagu]

Calgar at 170 with all that seems a bit much: he's already ( as far as named character go) kind of a standout, I am not sure he needs to rise that much above others.

Bobby G otoh needs to be more, as in seriously more: he is in practice just a "super chapter master", I think he needs some rules to show what a Primarch is ( he suffers a lot from being an "old" superdude).

I would even see it's cost increased but he needs a serious beefing ( picking him or Calgar souldn't be about picking the daddy or chibi version of the same thing).

Since it's something that we've seen already on others , I'd surely start with giving him the 4+ transhuman rule ( how can a Primarch not have that!!), plus I would increase it's ability to shape the battlefield to show it's tactical prowess, like allowing the use of a strategem twice each turn or reducing the cost of strategems by 1 ( to a minimum of one).

Mortarion is a good example of a battlefield shaper, with the -1 to hit and -1T aura; Bobby G. needs to be more of that if we accept that he can't be on par on the brute force side.

You're right, Maybe Guilliman does need more. There's some crazy units out there now.

 

As for Calgar I used Azrael as a base. If anything I felt even the Calgar I proposed is underpowered. Think about Azrael - a CM who can only be wounded on a 4+ and who grants all units around him a free 4++ invul. He's 170. Calgar doesn't compare.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I forgot Azrael gets the “transhuman” due to being inner circle. That is really good. The 4++ bubble has been around for some time and you don’t see anybody using it competitively. You can use transhuman for Calgar since he is PriMarneus so I don’t think we lose much there tbh.

[Marnus]

How about instead of getting all the Ultra warlord traits, Guilliman picks some number to have (3?) from the Ultra and/or Space Marine lists during the first command phase/after deployment.  Seems very fluffy for the master of adaptive strategy.  Also, I'm not a big fan of random number of attacks, just make the sword have 2 profiles one for sweep, one for sweep one for not.  Or could even combine the two weapons into one with 2 profiles to represent him attacking with both at the same time vs hard targets or hordes.  Maybe something like:

Fist+Sword Sweep: S+1-2, AP -3, D2 : 6s to wound are mortals. Make 3 hit rolls for each attack made with this weapon, instead of 1.

Fist+Sword Focus: Sx2, AP -4, D3 : 6s to would cause d3 mortals, +1 damage vs demons, psykers and chaos (maybe double damage).

 

I'd really love to see Calgar get some kind of teleport strike.  I hate how the ability was taken away cause he "graduated" out of his terminator armor.  I feel like mobility is a big part of what holds him back, but maybe not so much in 9th with mid table objectives being rushed by both sides (this could also just be a microcosm of Gravis Armor transports being way too expensive).  He definitely needs something, 4++ aura and transhuman baked into Azrael is just bonkers at 170 points (I'm guessing we will see Azreal a lot more in competitive circles with DA being the new flavor of the month).

 

Another idea is making some powerful unique stratagems for the characters, representing powerful character abilities that require command points.

 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You can make your own Deathwing HQ that are way more powerful than azrael, he will not feature in top competitive army lists imo.

[Subtleknife]

I would make the following changes to GMan

 

Sword - same profile. Drop mortal wounds. New rule, no save can be taken against wounds inflicted and no damage limits can apply. Its the Emperors sword for crying out loud it should be tasty.

 

I would also add the ability to select one unit every turn and apply full re roll to wounds.

 

I would switch GMan's get back up to a 2 or maybe 3 cp strat (that doesnt count towards the strat limit in the new supplement just in case GW rules writers are watching

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Guilliman is a better fighter imo. He took on Angron and Lorgar then walked away from it.

[Subtleknife]

Yeah I think Gman is a much better fighter than most give credit.

 

 

I wish there was a way to simulate his almost machine learning ability. Ie coral beat him first time, second time etc but eventually GMan learns and adapts. In the heresy his weapon skill increase by one each turn. I think the heresy version of him was pretty thematic and some bits could be stolen.

[Brother Ramael]

 

Calgar at 170 with all that seems a bit much: he's already ( as far as named character go) kind of a standout, I am not sure he needs to rise that much above others.

Bobby G otoh needs to be more, as in seriously more: he is in practice just a "super chapter master", I think he needs some rules to show what a Primarch is ( he suffers a lot from being an "old" superdude).

I would even see it's cost increased but he needs a serious beefing ( picking him or Calgar souldn't be about picking the daddy or chibi version of the same thing).

Since it's something that we've seen already on others , I'd surely start with giving him the 4+ transhuman rule ( how can a Primarch not have that!!), plus I would increase it's ability to shape the battlefield to show it's tactical prowess, like allowing the use of a strategem twice each turn or reducing the cost of strategems by 1 ( to a minimum of one).

Mortarion is a good example of a battlefield shaper, with the -1 to hit and -1T aura; Bobby G. needs to be more of that if we accept that he can't be on par on the brute force side.

You're right, Maybe Guilliman does need more. There's some crazy units out there now.

 

As for Calgar I used Azrael as a base. If anything I felt even the Calgar I proposed is underpowered. Think about Azrael - a CM who can only be wounded on a 4+ and who grants all units around him a free 4++ invul. He's 170. Calgar doesn't compare.

 

Well, Calgar has better stats and melee gear to punch people in the face, the invul is shooting only and so on but I think we can go on for ages back and forth about it; as I said, I'd just give him D3 fists with a deserved point drop but no 2nd trait(that's what's warlord is for, otherwise either he's the only guy with 3 traits or he'll nrver lead an army again) but 170-180 seems a good ballpark.

As far as G. is involved, as I said, I think that, while he deserves definitely a boost in terms of raw power, he should as well kind of change the way you play the army instead of being just a big big chapter master.

 

[jonjacob]

 

Guilliman - Drop cost to 350

-Same Stat-line

-Attacking with the Sword grants D6 extra attacks. No longer deals D3 mortal wounds on a roll of 6 to wound, instead automatically deals 1 MW on any hit scored against a unit with the Psyker, Chaos or Daemon keyword.

-Fist is Damage D3 + 3

-Resurrection on a 2+ with D6 wounds (alternatively make this a stratagem)

-Grants 3 CP

-Aura of re-roll all hits for Core/Characters and Aura of re-roll wounds of 1 for Core/Characters

-Aura of +1 to charge/advance rolls

-Scrap the aura that affects Imperium units

-XIII Primarch - Now allows him to have all Ultramarine Warlord traits at the same time

 

 

Calgar - Drop Cost to 170

-Same Stat-line

-Gauntlets are now Flat 3 Damage

-Grants 2 CP

-Same Damage Reduction rules

-CM Aura as normal

-Has Adept of the Codex + 1 Additional Warlord Trait

 

 

Sicarius - Same Cost

-Same Stat-line

-Sword is Str + 2, AP - 4, Damage 2, D3 Mortal Wounds on a roll of 5+

-Other rules stay the same

-Can use the Inspiring Command stratagem for Free

All of the above is good and could see it happening.

 

Though I would rather Cato damage with sword resolve as mortal wound rather than D3. Varied damage terrible, at least 3 mortals + 1 for paragon will make him more of viable warlord.

Edited February 25, 2021 by jonjacob

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Great discussion going on here !

[Prot]

I actually would like to see Guilliman have a +2 to hit aura or a +1 at 12” or something similar.  It would get around anti reroll strats and abilities yet still make a captain or CM not so redundant. 

[Ishagu]

I forgot Azrael gets the “transhuman” due to being inner circle. That is really good. The 4++ bubble has been around for some time and you don’t see anybody using it competitively. You can use transhuman for Calgar since he is PriMarneus so I don’t think we lose much there tbh.

I've seen it used competitively a lot, and not just since the new codex. It's a very, very powerful ability.

 

Aggressors, Eradicators, Intercessors etc with a guaranteed 4++ invul are a lot more potent in a game that forces armies into the middle of the board to contest and hold objectives.

 

Think about how the most popular power for Librarians that we use now is the 5++ invul bubble. Azreal has a free 4++ invul that you don't have to cast. It's a significant force multiplier on a very aggressively priced character. And he's got damage mitigation and grants CP. That's why when you look at Calgar he needs a significant drop in cost or a significant improvement in rules and output.

Edited February 19, 2021 by Ishagu

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It is good that’s true. I guess time will tell if competitive tournament players use it.

[Captain Idaho]

My preference on Sicarius is to represent his first strike preference, lightning assault warfare.

 

There's a hole in the army theme not covered. Drop Pod assault!

 

Sicarius

• Wargear stays the same

• Lightning Assault - units arriving from reserve via Drop Pod, Teleport or Death From Above get an additional -1 ap to their bolt weapons and +1 to charge rolls.

[jonjacob]

My preference on Sicarius is to represent his first strike preference, lightning assault warfare.

 

There's a hole in the army theme not covered. Drop Pod assault!

 

Sicarius

• Wargear stays the same

• Lightning Assault - units arriving from reserve via Drop Pod, Teleport or Death From Above get an additional -1 ap to their bolt weapons and +1 to charge rolls.

Teleport, and Death from Above is fine and I could see it working well, but drop pod landing on smaller gaming board even with terrain in mass is problematic. 

 

Maybe a Lightning assault could reduce the distance between units? Example: If you army is battle forged, units that belong to the same detachment as Sicarius with the aforementioned rules can deploy 7" away from the target rather than 9"

 

Better yet maybe straight +2 to charge rolls for ultramarines infantry / bikers within 6" in form of an ability, though this might be treading on a warlord trait somewhere.

 

 

Edited February 22, 2021 by jonjacob

[jonjacob]

So i can't stop thinking about the changes I'd like to see, so I thought I might comment rather than just piggy backing off everyone else ideas. They aren't overly grand but reasonable I think

 

Honour Guard

Mastercrafted special issue bolter

 

Range  Type                 S  AP   D

30.        Rapid Fire 1    4  - 2    2

 

Axes of Ultramar 

 

Range  Type                 S  AP   D

Meler    Melee              +2  - 2    2

Sicarius 

Pts 125 Power 6

 

Statline
M   WS  BS  S   T   W   A  S
6      2     2    4   4   5    5   2
 
Tempest Blade

Type       Range   S    AP   D
Melee     Melee  +1   - 3    3
 
When resolving attacks with this weapon, an unmodified wound roll of 6 inflicts mortal wounds equal to the weapons damage, and the attack sequence ends. 
 
Artisan Plasma Pistol
Unchanged
 
Battle Forged Heros
At the start of the battle round, select one Ultramarines core unit within 6". Unit the end of that battle round that unit has +1 to their wound Rolls, in the shooting and assault phase. 
In addition, enemy units that have model destroyed as result of an attack from this unit the selected unit receives a - 1 to thier leadership.
 
Crusade: Mastrr of the watch

WT: Paragon of War

Calgar

Pts 200 Power 11

 

Statline - Unchanged 
 
Gauntletts if Ultramar 
Range     Type                  S    AP    D
30            Rapid fire 4      4    - 2     2
Melee      Melee              X2   - 3     3
 
Rules
Master Tactician
At the start of the battle round, select an Ultramarines Core unit within 6". This unit may select either the Tactical , Assault or Devastators doctrine. The selected doctrine is considered active for that unit, in addition to the one currently active for your army.
 
Lord Defender
If your army is battle forged, you receive an additional 2 command points if Marneus Calgar is your warlord.
In addition, you must select an additional warlord trait for Marneus Calgar from the Ultramarines warlord table. Each Warlord Trait in your army must be unique. 

WT:adept of the codex

Guilliman

Author of the Codex
If your army is battle forged, you receive 3 Command points if Roboute Guilliman is your warlord. 
In addition, you must select 2 additional Ultramarines warlord traits from the Ultramarine warlord table. Each warlord trait in your army must be unique.

  Edited March 17, 2021 by jonjacob

[Captain Idaho]

I like the upgraded weapons for Honour Guard. Makes then genuinely decent options.

[Ishagu]

Honestly guys there are some great ideas here. I only hope GW can deliver when they finally update the supplement.

 

I'm actually pretty confident they will improve a lot of our options, rules and strats. Not just in terms of power, but also in terms of theme.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Ishagu