Prot's Quickie Batrep: Ultra's vs Death Guard (Pictures)

[Prot]

I had a game yesterday vs. the dreaded Death Guard. My opponent is not new to 40K but Death Guard are a recent acquisition to him.

For history, I had played my White Scars against this list, but I think it was a very narrow loss.

I believed that my UM would have a better shot. The scary thing is his list is comprised of mostly stuff he owns. (No Mort right now.)

My list included mostly units I consider pretty potent for Ultra's with only one truly experimental unit; the Lascannon Gladiator.

Ultra's:

Battalion-

Calgar, Tiggy, Chappy,

Infiltrators, Intercessors, Intercessors (x10)

Aggressors (x6 flamers), Macroplasma Redemptor, Chief Apothecary, Victrix Guard, Primaris Ancient with Relic Inviolate of Ultramar Banner (+1 attack and +1 to hit)

Eradicators x2, Gladiator Valiant.

DG: (By memory)

Lord, Plaguecaster, Fight last dude with flame cannon.

2-3 larger 10 man squads of Plague marines (Some for CC some for shooting)

2 larger Poxwalker units

2 PBCs

3 Foetid Bloat Drones (1 with mower attachment)

3 Darkshroud (?) Terminators

1 of these Auto Cannon batteries from Forgeworld. SUPER annoying. Every wound kills a primaris.

The Game Breakdown:

I don't have a ton of time but I do have some pictures I uploaded. We played (I think) Scorched Earth and the deployment was the old Dawn of War style (10" long edge).

Death Guard went first. I made the Redemptor -1 to hit with Tiggy's Prescience.

Most of the DG's turn was moving up. Very few shots coming from both PBC's BUT they managed to bracket the Redemptor putting it at 6 wounds.

The DG put a squad of Poxwalkers and the Plaguecaster in Reserves for 1 CP (in all of 9th I actually did not know you could combine units and do this! I've been paying a CP per unit even if combined it comes in under the lowest tier of reserve cost.)

This is a really annoying tactic! I say this because with Primaris, even the Infiltrators it becomes very hard to block everything out.

Early game deployment from my side looked like this:

- Ultra turn I got off my Litanies (+1 to wound in shooting and assault on my 10 man intercessor squad) - Fortress went off, and the Redemptor got Might of Heroes.

- My shooting was not great. I struggled mightily as usual against DG to do any real wounds. The Aggressors flamed about 45 hits, and after all is said and done I think he loses 1 marine because of pipes giving him a 2+ save. I maybe did 5 wounds anyway, and that T5 helps a lot.

- I decided to go hard into the Foetid bloat drone on my right side, this is because I had the LItanies on that 10 man Intercessor squad and I had to shoot twice to do it! But I killed it giving me a point for Oath of Moment.

Here's how it started to look:

In turn 2 I could not protect this flank even with the Infiltrators. My Tank did squat this whole game. 24" I thought would be more than enough but against Death Guard you don't want to get close..... I had extreme trouble taking down the PBC's. In the mean time I knew I was going to lose the left flank. His Plague caster gets off the first of three psychic actions in my zone from coming in with the Poxwalkers. He's also scoring the quarters secondary, while spreading contagion on 2 markers so far.

He has me pretty much surrounded. I couldn't clear near as many poxwalkers off of the ruins that my Infirtrators are in (as shown above) This was a disaster... the blightspawn flamered most of the squad to death with the remaining picked off by the Plaguemarines. By Turn 3 I had lost the whole left flank and would never be able to score more than 5 points on primary (This was a 6 objective mission meaning I needed 3 to score 10 points).

As you can see from the DG side of the table he already has the mid point of the board. I needed time to burn down the garbage coming at me, plus there was a mower drone coming in hot on my Aggressors.....

With the DG pressing forward, the Drones led the way. I had one down so far, and this one was doing a fairly short charge and I did not want to get stuck in with it. I would lose 2 Aggressors to PBC's and Plaguemarine special weapons! So my Apothecary could bring one back, but I was down to 4 by the time he charged, so I took a leap of faith here...

I spend 3 CP on combined overwatch. I intentionally kept my Gladiator 6" away from the Aggressors, I kept a 5 man Intercessor squad also 6" away... I combined it all and BARELY killed the darn thing! Even with full hits from Aggressors. Incredible. In the end the Poxwalkers made the charge in. Even with all my extra attacks, my 4 Agggressors could not get rid of the bloody Poxwalkers... 2 remained. This gave him full points for quarters.

__________________________________________________________________________

Now at mid game, things have really gone to hell on the left side. I'm pulling the Gladiator tank in to the center, and trying my best to push out to mid table to get 2 points for Oath. Trying to re-create a firebase at mid table.

The Infiltrated Poxwalkers are having their way with the Intercessors. I can't clear them out. I'm stuck in.

The Gladiator once again puts full shots into a PBC and finally it is down to half wounds.

The key here is he had his Deathshroud termies in and they were on an objective in front of my 10 man Intercessors on the right flank. I put EVERYTHING I could to buff that Intercessor squad and they fired twice at AP-2, full rerolls, +1 to wound! AND fired twice. I killed 1 Deathshroud! So my 3 Eradicators that also came in that side (I had put them in reserves) had to finish the job... no go. I killed one more with 6 meltarifle shots.

I can't believe how hard it is to kill anything. The DG feel super anti-marine. Even this pedestrian list is forcing me into a corner and I can't clear out.

With the left side lost, and the right side in jeopardy, the failed 10 man intercessor squad (now 8 men) prepares to be assaulted. (I wanted to force him to move off the objective towards me.) He still has a lord there and about 5 Plague marines as well.

I think the ongoing battle on the right side forced my hand. He would inevitably charge in with the DeathShroud and his Lord and that would kill all but 2 marines. I used my Banner aura to prevent a test. I kept ONE guy with Obsec alive on the marker.

My Eradicators were killed by a damaged PBC and that forgeworld artillery.

In my turn I made as good a push as I could, extending many units to get the job done....

- Last stand and mid. Overcharging the Redemptor over and over to kill Plague Marines was probably the most successful unit I had for doing damage while the Aggressors prevented him from outright owning the whole table since I killed the Foetid drones off he didn't have a hard target to charge into me with.

- The Redptor would stay at 6 wounds, I always put -1 to hit on him and the PBC's that hit him hard in T1 wouldn't be able to damage him (also always put Might of Heroes on him which helped).

- I never got in his back field for more than a second (the short lived attack by Eradicators).

- I buff Calgar up... he has the rare job where he has to almost clear out the Lord and the last Deathshroud Termie. The Chaplain would go in too, and I had 2 marines still alive. Ironically this may sound like a LOT for 2 models but the resilience factor is stupid here....

Not only do I send Calgar and the Chappy in, I also send the Victrix Guard on a mission (through the ruins unseen in the picture below) They are scaling up the terrain to hit that bloody Forgeworld Artillery autocannon unit and need to shut it down.

- So since Calgar is buffed... I send him in and the Chappy but I swing first with the chappy. I have only 1 CP left, and I know the DG can interrupt. The Chappy is more vulnerable so he goes first, swings full tilt at the remaining Deathshroud.... and I can't take one wound off of him!

- DG interrupt and the lord goes for the sweep type swing for lots more attacks....4 wounds come through (I'm only T4 in this case because of DG fart aura). I can't believe it.... but Calgar saves all 4 wounds on a 4+ (Something had to go my way!)

- Calgar winds up the fists of Ultramar and punches the lord back to the stink hole he came from. (At least some vindication!)

- The Victrix.... what about them? Sent on a mission on their own deep in the heart of the enemy....

Well the Victrix did not disappoint! They valiantly swung in... I think 10 attacks and I just got really, really lucky even with their old school power swords, and did a lot of wounds and this Forgeworld cannon is the only unit in his list that finally does NOT reduce damage so I just killed the darn thing!

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Unfortunately that would be the best of it.

The Death Guard still had an overwhelming hold on the table. I lost too many points on the Primary alone and never scored more than 5 points a turn on the primary. I also lost a 'banner' I had planted to the Poxwalkers while he walked around corrupting markers at will.

His Primary was (as usual) a very strong point. He started with 5 and ramped up to 10, then 15. This was the game ender. I could perhaps tie him in secondaries, but he had an insurmountable lead on Primaries so we called it there.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

End Game Thoughts:

- My White Scars had a narrow loss. A first for them in dozens of games (literally). I had thought the Ultra's would do better, however I was definitely wrong. The problem is my Ultra's in particular are not as mobile, and not as assault oriented as my Ultra's. So I think that means we are in a situation here where I want to widdle down as much as I can before breaking the halfway point of the map. This problem with this scenario is I can't do the damage.

Over several turns I marveled at the lack of damage I could do. T5 is one thing, but the -1 damage is truly back breaking for both my UM and my White Scars.

- The scary thing here is aside from my gladiator fun tank, I believe my list is very potent. The Death Guard? That was a very mid tier list for that codex. He doesn't even take the Plague Company that halves movement, and no Mortarion and he's waiting to get the dreaded Blightlord Terminators! Once those are in play I think my chances go from 'long shot' to 'no chance'.

Right now I don't have to deal with going last in every combat (no relic), losing my rerolls (mort) and being stuck in CC with Poxwalkers (half movement). Even with all of that off of the table, I struggle too much to damage anything. Once the basic units are in cover, you really have to access to a wide array of S5-S6 weapons with 3 Damage a shot, and a minimum AP-1.

I believe it takes those kinds of weapons to even make the DG player start rolling dice. Until you get those kinds of stats, you aren't even making the DG player make saves and that's where you'll lose every game.

That said I enjoy playing against this army. It's such a hard match up. And as far as my Ultramarines... I still prefer the playstyle of the White Scars. I enjoy the movement, and I still believe it plays to the Ultramarines strengths to play in a mid-shooty block formation and try to dominate the mid table for Oath Secondary.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Prot how would you revise your list for a rematch ?

 

I had a recent game vs DG and fortunately for me my new Eradicators did quite a number on those stinkyboiz.
 

PS - I was also lucky with Tiggy as he managed to cast three super smites over the course of the game helping to take out a couple of key units.

Edited February 19, 2021 by Black Blow Fly

[Prot]

That's a good question. I really don't know. 

 

As mentioned I felt since my White Scars did an alright job against a pedestrian DG list, I really thought something with better ranged volume would do better via Ultramarines. 

 

Now that I look back at it, the flamer Aggressors, the Intercessors were all incredibly futile. Even with the odd +1 to wound thrown out by the Chaplain, there was just too much effort put into making the DG player roll a dice.

 

Units that impressed me: (This is by pure performance results)

 

1. Redemptor: With Macro Plasma overcharged every turn. It needed a bit of baby sitting, and yes this is definitely a rare occasion where the model lasted the game (DG typically don't have the ranged power to knock down vehicles.)

 

2. It's super rare for me to say this but I can't figure out an offensive unit to put here so I pick the 6 flame Aggressors. They kept coming back (Apothecary) and even though they couldn't kill anything, I felt like I had a squad of my own Plaguemarines! They attracted a ton of firepower.

 

3. Very hard to find a third unit that worked in this matchup. I have to say Calgar. He kept the damaged Redemptor hitting, he ended up challenging the Death Guard Lord and last Deathshroud. Without him I would have lost the right flank as well as the left. (Honourary mention goes to the Victrix that did a similar role.)

 

The Tank was cruddy. I keep trying my Gladiators but they just are bad units on a lot of levels.  The Eradicators had one shot to shine coming out of reserves, and they really missed the mark. It was a combination of slightly less than average rolling on my part, but equally the fact that you're wounding on 3's and the Deathshroud get a 4++ Cataphractii.

 

Really shocked still how hard it was for my volume firepower to do anything. One less damage is just so good. T5 makes my normal golden Ultra units horrible... Aggressors and Intercessors.

 

White Scars don't have near the volume of low end firepower. While I bounced hard in close combat with White Scars, there's just a lot more of it, so the army typically gets up close and personal regardless and they move and assault much better than UM and can therefore contest/obsec deeper on the table, faster than UM.

 

I could adjust my UM to look more like my White Scars, but I think that would be a mistake. Assault armies are just better at it. What I felt was lacking was a strong infantry unit I could spam that had special weapons that would work. I'm playing exclusively Primaris so even units like Hellblasters are a total waste in this matchup. 

[NKirkham24]

I had a game against my friends DG last week, and managed a very tight victory. This was my first game vs them with the new codex, and his first using them.

 

Star units for me were my two Redemptor, I used one with each load out, and had a Master of the Forge and Tigurius backing them up, both protected by a unit of Victrix Guard.

 

I also really liked the performance of my 4 man Bladeguard Vets along with my Indomitus Captain, they managed to take in a 3man Deathshroud squad. I think I got fairly lucky in that regard, as I expecting reducing the Bladeguard to D1 would really hurt.

 

I also took two Invictors, which whiffed on this occasion but that D3 fist is smushing plague marines with each hit.

 

It was a really hard fought win, those plague drones are great now, and he certainly didn’t have an optimised lists the rematch may be a struggle.

 

The damage reduction is really good for them though, just adds over the course of a game, the resilience is really impressive.

[Prot]

I had a game against my friends DG last week, and managed a very tight victory. This was my first game vs them with the new codex, and his first using them.

 

Star units for me were my two Redemptor, I used one with each load out, and had a Master of the Forge and Tigurius backing them up, both protected by a unit of Victrix Guard.

 

I also really liked the performance of my 4 man Bladeguard Vets along with my Indomitus Captain, they managed to take in a 3man Deathshroud squad. I think I got fairly lucky in that regard, as I expecting reducing the Bladeguard to D1 would really hurt.

 

I also took two Invictors, which whiffed on this occasion but that D3 fist is smushing plague marines with each hit.

 

It was a really hard fought win, those plague drones are great now, and he certainly didn’t have an optimised lists the rematch may be a struggle.

 

The damage reduction is really good for them though, just adds over the course of a game, the resilience is really impressive.

 

 

That's a great result. For me the Redemptor was also easily my best unit. 

 

My previous game with Bladeguard, I couldn't do any damage with since the swords became -1 damage and I did run into his Deathshroud. In return, my being T3 meant I was rolling a lot more saves than he was.... dice caught up with me. 

 

Personally I don't use the Invictus Warsuits anymore. The fist for instance.... if you don't roll a '3' for damage, you don't kill a marine. I think that's a bit crazy. They aren't core so you're all on your own in those match ups. Redemptors having the -1 damage also makes them just an auto-take over Invictor warsuits. (I really miss using mine though... they were a lot of fun in 8th).

Edited February 21, 2021 by Prot

[NKirkham24]

Invictor fists are flat Damage 3 now, were they D3 damage previously? I use them as distractions pressing ahead early game and opens up transports or blocking certain areas of terrain. I’d definitely recommend trying one, for that pressure, keeping them pinned back in a flank etc. We can always redeploy if we don’t get 1st turn.

 

I do think I got a little lucky on the Bladeguard, but also having the captain as back up helped for the re-rolls. I plan to swap him for Ventris is the next game, so damage 3 sword will really help get through them.

 

Like I say, this was the first game against them, next time we can get together we’ll have a rematch and I’m sure he’ll have learnt a lot too

[Brother Ramael]

I think Bladeguards are a decent counterpunch to DG in general, thet can match them in tankiness and not underperform in melee while being decently costed.

It's nice as well seeing tanks making a comeback.

[Prot]

Sorry NKirkham, I misunderstood the Invictor results you were getting. Honestly I’m still reluctant. I still feel like they got a bum deal in 9th compared to Redemptors. 
 

Bladeguard.... definitely better for this matchup. The thing is I play a large group of people, and I never want to tailor a list. That being said I was replacing my Bladeguard with Victrix guard even though it was a loss of one model. 
 

however my White Scars always use Bladeguard and they did hold up for a battleground against the Death Guard the week before. But keep in mind I had charged with Kor’sarro and that’s a big benefit. I just could not get passed that 4++ invulnerable save. And as White Scars I changed to Assault Doctrine and therefore had 3 damage blades AND Kor’sarro rerolls and +1 to wound. 
 

it’s those invulnerable saves. He made them and then in his turn I end up being T3...he’s wounding on 2’s and rerolling ones. 
 

Anyway.... that is White Scars with Bladeguard. So my logic was pushing me to take them out of UM, take the 2 Victrix, and load up on shooting. Predominantly I thought the flame aggressors would do it. That is normally a golden unit for my UM but S4 weapons just suck against DG in cover. 
 

like I said he isn’t even using the “You don’t count as charging” dude and he doesn’t even use the no reroll aura, or Mort or the half movement debuff.  That’s kind of disheartening. 
 

in part I think my current feeling about this matchup is the fact I haven’t lost with my UM for an extremely long time. This is quite the wake up call. 
 

So what to change? Aggressors out? Bladeguard in? 
 

I want to keep the tank, and I’m considering adding the other one I have. The Reaper (a real pill box). 
 

this would allow me to consider playing far more aggressively. This is more in line with my White Scras so.. unsure. 
 

other unit thoughts: lower troop count. Change Eradicators to have MM weapons OR simply use MM ATVs? 
 

I did realize late in this game that Calgar has to be activated to slap down some of these baddies. But shooting still feels the overall better strategy? Thoughts?

[greatcrusade08]

The thing is I play a large group of people, and I never want to tailor a list. 

 

I think this is key, outside of tailoring, any changes you make to a list to play DG has to still work vs other opponents.

Every big change affects meta i guess

 

Would hellblasters provide an edge vs DG?

[Tokugawa]

 

 

The thing is I play a large group of people, and I never want to tailor a list.

I think this is key, outside of tailoring, any changes you make to a list to play DG has to still work vs other opponents.

Every big change affects meta i guess

 

Would hellblasters provide an edge vs DG?

No. Inceptors have better shots/point ratio, than any variants of hellblasters, no matter the target has 5- or 6+ models.

[greatcrusade08]

 

Inceptors have better shots/point ratio, than any variants of hellblasters, no matter the target has 5- or 6+ models.

 

 

Very well point taken, maths is king (i hadnt actually realised that though, thank you).. @Prot would inceptors be worth taking vs DG?

[Karhedron]

 

Inceptors have better shots/point ratio, than any variants of hellblasters, no matter the target has 5- or 6+ models.

Very well point taken, maths is king (i hadnt actually realised that though, thank you).. @Prot would inceptors be worth taking vs DG?

 

Personally I would definitely take Plasma Inceptors vs DG. DG like large blobs of infantry but reduce damage. This means you Inceptors will often be getting 6 shots each and you don't need to bother overcharging (with the attendant risk of overheats) because there is no point. 6 shots each, wounding on 3s with AP-3 will burn through even plague Marines. Even just a 3-man squad will normally kill 3-4 Plague Marines per volley provided you are shooting at a squad of 6+. Like Aggressors, they make a pretty good unit for an Apothecary to heal up. They are also mobile which can help snagging Objectives.

 

I am not convinced about BGVs. Firstly their fancy swords are down to just 1 Damage vs DG which steals a lot of their punch. Also they are down to T3 in melee so their durability is not what you would normally expect.

 

Dreadnoughts on the other hand are good, particularly Redemptors. MPC can push the damage through on DG, as can the fist while the OGC and stormbolters can help clear Poxies. Maybe run 2 and have Tiggy cast Psychic Fortress early on to give them some protection from PBCs. DG don't tend to have a ton of anti-tank so Dreads with their Disgustingly Resilient Duty Eternal will give them a taste of their own medicine.

 

Lastly, I have crunched the numbers and come to the conclusion that Eradicators work best with Heavy Melta Rifles and a MM in every squad. I don't know what loadout you were running but this is worth bearing in mind.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Karhedron

[NKirkham24]

Sorry NKirkham, I misunderstood the Invictor results you were getting. Honestly I’m still reluctant. I still feel like they got a bum deal in 9th compared to Redemptors. 

 

Bladeguard.... definitely better for this matchup. The thing is I play a large group of people, and I never want to tailor a list. That being said I was replacing my Bladeguard with Victrix guard even though it was a loss of one model. 

 

however my White Scars always use Bladeguard and they did hold up for a battleground against the Death Guard the week before. But keep in mind I had charged with Kor’sarro and that’s a big benefit. I just could not get passed that 4++ invulnerable save. And as White Scars I changed to Assault Doctrine and therefore had 3 damage blades AND Kor’sarro rerolls and +1 to wound. 

 

it’s those invulnerable saves. He made them and then in his turn I end up being T3...he’s wounding on 2’s and rerolling ones. 

 

Anyway.... that is White Scars with Bladeguard. So my logic was pushing me to take them out of UM, take the 2 Victrix, and load up on shooting. Predominantly I thought the flame aggressors would do it. That is normally a golden unit for my UM but S4 weapons just suck against DG in cover. 

 

like I said he isn’t even using the “You don’t count as charging” dude and he doesn’t even use the no reroll aura, or Mort or the half movement debuff.  That’s kind of disheartening. 

 

in part I think my current feeling about this matchup is the fact I haven’t lost with my UM for an extremely long time. This is quite the wake up call. 

 

So what to change? Aggressors out? Bladeguard in? 

 

I want to keep the tank, and I’m considering adding the other one I have. The Reaper (a real pill box). 

 

this would allow me to consider playing far more aggressively. This is more in line with my White Scras so.. unsure. 

 

other unit thoughts: lower troop count. Change Eradicators to have MM weapons OR simply use MM ATVs? 

 

I did realize late in this game that Calgar has to be activated to slap down some of these baddies. But shooting still feels the overall better strategy? Thoughts?

 

Ye, I appreciate the aim for an all-comers list, and would say I am aiming for that too. 

 

I've tweaked my list for next time and have dropped to just one Invictor, so i'll report back when that eventually takes place. 

 

I've been taking 2 units of 5 intercessors and 5 tactical marines as my troops, in the next iteration i've got Infiltrators, Intercessors and Heavy Intercessors (hurry up releasing them already GW!), but I certainly think MSU is the way to go. What do you normally go with as troops?

 

Bladeguard I think will have a place in most of our lists for that combat punch. I know other chapters can do it better, but I think a fairly survivable, dedicated melee unit that can take out other marines etc is always good to have, especially when backed up but a character.

 

As you said, Calgar is a weapon when he reaches combat, but he is fairly slow, and you want to keep him fairly safe for the reliability he adds to our shooty units. Have you tried any other HQs, or are you set on taking Marneus?

 

I do like the concept of the Aggressors but haven't run them like that myself, so wouldn't really like to pass comment, as you've said, they can do some serious work both in combat and shooting despite not having the greatest match-up vs the DG. 

 

Again, I've had one unit of 3 Eradicators in my list, and tried Eliminators and Devs as secondary Heavy Supports, but honestly, they haven't done anything that another 3 Eradicators could have done better, so that's the route I'm trying next time out. They're just so good. And that is with the standard melta rifles, I've not really looked in to the other variants yet. 

[Karhedron]

Again, I've had one unit of 3 Eradicators in my list, and tried Eliminators and Devs as secondary Heavy Supports, but honestly, they haven't done anything that another 3 Eradicators could have done better, so that's the route I'm trying next time out. They're just so good. And that is with the standard melta rifles, I've not really looked in to the other variants yet.

At the risk of dragging the thread slightly OT, here is some analysis of Eradicators.

 

Base Eradicator costs 45 points, 50 for heavy and 55 for MM. Let's check the stats when firing at a T8 3+ target since this encompasses most races' MBTs. Let's also assume they are within 12" but moved (since they would be lucky to have enemy just drive into melta range ).

 

Base 3.67 wounds or 0.081 wounds per point

Heavy 3.75 wounds or 0.075 wounds per point

MM 5.5 wounds or 0.1 wounds per point

 

So what does this tell us? It shows that Multimeltas are definitely worth the points of the upgrade as they are 20-25% more killy than melta-rifles for their points.

 

On the move, heavy melta rifles are only marginally better than regular ones (they are actually slightly worse point-for-point but still a net increase in killing power). Also the Heavy variants cannot Advance and fire. Granted you are not likely to want to do this often since you lose the double-tap.

 

The multi-melta is a solid upgrade over the regular melta rifle and you should take it, even if you expect the squad to be moving. The 4 shots more than makes up for the extra cost.

 

Anything that can remove the move-and-fire penalty of the Heavy Melta rifles makes a big difference. Without that penalty, they are clear winners over the regular MRs. In short, this is why I favour heavy melta rifles. Even on the move, they are marginally killier than the regular kind. If the squad is fortunate enough to be able to stand still or you have a way to negate the penalty (e.g. Space Wolves Keen Senses) then the Heavy Melta rifle has a big edge over the assault variant.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Karhedron

[Prot]

On the move, heavy melta rifles are only marginally better than regular ones (they are actually slightly worse point-for-point but still a net increase in killing power). Also the Heavy variants cannot Advance and fire. Granted you are not likely to want to do this often since you lose the double-tap.

 

 

This is why I mentioned them for Ultra's... since for at least 2 turns we will be able to move and shoot without any negatives.

 

- Troops: 

My last 10 or so games I've taken 1x5 man Intercessor squad, and almost always a 10 man Intercessor squad. This squad gets the shoot twice, and often with a Chappy's +1 to wound Litany. Put it into Tactical Doctrine early for the move/shoot double tap at 30" and AP-2 with 2 grenade shots as well.

 

My third troop completely depends on points and feel of the army list. I often take 5 Infiltrators in vehicle lists (defensive) or 5 Incursors is also a favourite for more aggressive lists.

 

The 10 man Intercessor squad has been beyond useless against DG. It has made me realize that if I went to a tournament tomorrow, I'd cut them down to 5 simply because it's too many points that doesn't do anything to a couple of key armies right now. (It's just a lot of points)

 

- Playstyle:

The other thing I've run into is the big blob of troops was better for a slowish, block style of movement hovering around center. I'm just generally trying to move away from that now. 

 

I'm really wanting to put the new Heavy Intercessors into this army but I'm starting to lean away from putting too many troops in the lists in favour of specialization, and I don't like this new trend of shutting off ObSec that GW is getting into... I actually think it's a bad move... Troops should -always- have it in my opinion. So while I like Intercessors, they are slowly shifting in my lists.

 

-Bladeguard:

I picked up a set this week. What an amazing kit. The models in the Indomitus box were great, but these are just incredible. You can make so many combinations it's really flexible from a head/arm swap point of view. 

 

I agree these are good. I do think Victrix overlap a bit. And nothing says you can't take multiple squads of Victrix. They aren't amazingly offensive, but Victrix do have the old Shield rules. 

 

That said there are some nice combo's using Bladeguard Ancient, and Chaplains or even just a Bladeguard LT with a Seal of Oath that can get some work done, but they get expensive, and I wonder if this is the best direction for UM?

 

So I'm struggling to put these 3 Bladeguard in my UM... I may just use them as White Scars (I do have 3 painted Bladeguard for my UM from Indomitus). But it's a debate... I put these models together and maybe WS use them to greater effect, but UM might be good with 6 of these AND a squad of Victrix.... a lot of points though, and once you start spending that much on a concept, it better work. :)

[NKirkham24]

 

Again, I've had one unit of 3 Eradicators in my list, and tried Eliminators and Devs as secondary Heavy Supports, but honestly, they haven't done anything that another 3 Eradicators could have done better, so that's the route I'm trying next time out. They're just so good. And that is with the standard melta rifles, I've not really looked in to the other variants yet.

At the risk of dragging the thread slightly OT, here is some analysis of Eradicators.

 

Base Eradicator costs 45 points, 50 for heavy and 55 for MM. Let's check the stats when firing at a T8 3+ target since this encompasses most races' MBTs. Let's also assume they are within 12" but moved (since they would be lucky to have enemy just drive into melta range ).

 

Base 3.67 wounds or 0.081 wounds per point

Heavy 3.75 wounds or 0.075 wounds per point

MM 5.5 wounds or 0.1 wounds per point

 

So what does this tell us? It shows that Multimeltas are definitely worth the points of the upgrade as they are 20-25% more killy than melta-rifles for their points.

 

On the move, heavy melta rifles are only marginally better than regular ones (they are actually slightly worse point-for-point but still a net increase in killing power). Also the Heavy variants cannot Advance and fire. Granted you are not likely to want to do this often since you lose the double-tap.

 

The multi-melta is a solid upgrade over the regular melta rifle and you should take it, even if you expect the squad to be moving. The 4 shots more than makes up for the extra cost.

 

Anything that can remove the move-and-fire penalty of the Heavy Melta rifles makes a big difference. Without that penalty, they are clear winners over the regular MRs. In short, this is why I favour heavy melta rifles. Even on the move, they are marginally killier than the regular kind. If the squad is fortunate enough to be able to stand still or you have a way to negate the penalty (e.g. Space Wolves Keen Senses) then the Heavy Melta rifle has a big edge over the assault variant.

 

 

Thanks, this is really helpful. From this, it looks like we should be going for the heavy variant. 

 

So with Ultramarines doctrine counting us as stationary while in tactical, we'd retain the mobility of the unit without taking the hit penalty. 

 

You could always put them in Tactical with one of doctrines or warlord traits in T1 to avoid this too. 

 

Back on topic, Prot, are you running standard Eradicators or do you have the variants? I haven't bought a MPK personally yet but it is on the to-do list!

[Prot]

 

 

 

So with Ultramarines doctrine counting us as stationary while in tactical, we'd retain the mobility of the unit without taking the hit penalty. 

 

You could always put them in Tactical with one of doctrines or warlord traits in T1 to avoid this too. 

 

Back on topic, Prot, are you running standard Eradicators or do you have the variants? I haven't bought a MPK personally yet but it is on the to-do list!

 

 

Yes, that's what I was saying... you don't count as moving for at least 2 turns. I did buy a box, but haven't done anything with it. I keep thinking of ways to do things the "Ultramarine way" in my games. I keep putting my Eradicators in reserves. So coming in on T2, I don't have a worry about moving and shooting, however if you start them on the board, you have options. (Which will get cheaper with Ventris.)

 

The extra damage is what I'm going for as I start to realize that my older style of using chappy +1 to wound litany on a pile of mediocre shooting isn't working anymore.

 

Honestly I keep thinking about MM bikes, or even ATV's, but I put those aside for my White Scars! However the more I play them, the fonder I've become of them. It's just so much better with White Scars though (get -1 to hit, and then just shoot normal, assault (they aren't bad on T3) then pull back, assault again...) So with UM I stick to Eradicators for my MM support. (I did try the new speeder but it's just a paper plane).

 

As a side note I always put my Eradicators in reserves and I advise this because they are actually quite easy to pick off and I typically play Aggressors so the Aggressors are my Grav Strat target typically.  

 

Really the simple answer is probably 3 Macroplasma Dreads. Revisitng my last couple of games, that has been the superstar. 

[Karhedron]

Really the simple answer is probably 3 Macroplasma Dreads. Revisitng my last couple of games, that has been the superstar.

I have seen a Space Wolves list going in this direction. It is a lot of firepower and about 40 wounds to chew through with the -1D rule. Put a Libby with them for psychic Fortress and pop Wisdom of the Ancients on one Dread per turn for rerolls and you will have a real dice bucket on your hands.

[NKirkham24]

I'm looking forward to picking up the bladeguard kit, the concensus seems to be it is a brilliant kit. Also going to grab MPK Eradicators this weekend too (payday on friday!)

 

I've been running 4 men in my Bladeguard and the Captain with them. They've managed to hold up (but did die eventually) to a KoS and chaos lord and as mentioned fought Deathshroud to a standstill in my last two games. I plan to add a 5th to the squad next time out. 

 

I have looked at getting the Ancient in too, so they hit on 2s, but not managed it with everything else I want so far.

 

I've been taking Victrix too, mainly to shield Tigurius due to his lack of invul save. 

 

I like the sound of the big intercessor blob, to get the most from the strat etc, but like you say, 200pts minimum just feels steep for one troop choice. 

 

That said, i am really looking forward to Heavy Intercessors. following the same logic as the Eradicators with the heavy versions, they could do some serious work for us. 

 

I've started mine on the board recently rather than outflanking them. They're a small unit so can be hidden fairly easily, and means we can get an extra turns shooting out of them. That said, I can also buff with the strat as I don't have the Aggressors you've been taking. I think it's really down to opponent etc one the deployment front. 

 

 

 

Really the simple answer is probably 3 Macroplasma Dreads. Revisitng my last couple of games, that has been the superstar.

I have seen a Space Wolves list going in this direction. It is a lot of firepower and about 40 wounds to chew through with the -1D rule. Put a Libby with them for psychic Fortress and pop Wisdom of the Ancients on one Dread per turn for rerolls and you will have a real dice bucket on your hands.

 

 

Doesn't surprise me at all, they're a star unit. Never let me down yet. I've been taking a Master of the Forge to accompany my two Redemptors, anyone else been using him?

[Karhedron]

I have looked at getting the Ancient in too, so they hit on 2s, but not managed it with everything else I want so far.

I am not convinced by the Ancient. There are plenty of ways to boost the BGVs (Captain, Lt, Chaplain). The problem with the BGV Ancient is that he is fairly pricey but has minimal damage output himself. For a similar price I would rather take a Judiciar to force their opponents to strike last.

 

 

 

Really the simple answer is probably 3 Macroplasma Dreads. Revisitng my last couple of games, that has been the superstar.

I have seen a Space Wolves list going in this direction. It is a lot of firepower and about 40 wounds to chew through with the -1D rule. Put a Libby with them for psychic Fortress and pop Wisdom of the Ancients on one Dread per turn for rerolls and you will have a real dice bucket on your hands.

 

 

Doesn't surprise me at all, they're a star unit. Never let me down yet. I've been taking a Master of the Forge to accompany my two Redemptors, anyone else been using him?

 

I have been thinking long and hard on this and my hunch is that the Techmarine is actually not as good as he looks in this role. Unlike the Apothecary, he can only repair once and he has no resurrection ability, he can only buff one Dread and he uses a precious HQ slot.

 

I think that a Libby with Psychic Fortress giving all 3 Dreads a 5++ is likely to save more wounds from being applied than a Techmarine will repair. Plus the Libby can be using another power as well as Denying enemy powers which makes him more flexible. Maybe I am underselling the Techmarine but I don't think he brings enough buffs for his points and slot as an HQ.

[Prot]

I really don't like the Judiciar since the nerf, and the DG version/relic is just something I see in almost every list right now..... But yea the Ancient is expensive, but he comes with other stuff... this being ultra's the Inviolate banner is something I like a lot, but again this might be overall more of a White Scars strategy.

 

I took the 'vanilla' Primaris Ancient in my game, and that has a bit better price, and helps shooting out (on death) which does actually work better with UM. Still not great, but I guess I'm just experimenting still. 

 

The Primaris Techmarine: Just strictly my opinion but I think it's a bottom tier choice for fun only. (See my Gladiator experimental threads). He has an extremely similar role to the Apothecary on substandard units and does it far less adequately.  One of his biggest detractors to me is he resides in the HQ slot. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Terminator Ancient Is the best Ancient.

[Karhedron]

My main complaint with both flavours of Primaris ancient is you are spending a lot of points on a character to buff nearby units but who does not contribute much themselves due to being armed with just a bolt pistol.

 

The Apothecary is similarly priced, occupies the same slot and is similarly under-armed but I feel brings far stronger buffs. For the price of a BG Ancient, you can buy 2 more BGVs who are likely to contribute more to the battle. An Apothecary can likely heal/resurrect his own points worth of models easily in a battle.

 

Maybe I am undervaluing the Ancient but their buffs look somewhat insipid in comparison. I realise some Chapters have relic Banners that can tilt the calculation significantly so I am only looking at the general case.

[Tokugawa]

BGVs are not famous for their damage output, they are there to absorb some most "elite" attacks from your opponent. On average maths, Mortarion cannot kill a single unit of BGVs in a turn.

[NKirkham24]

I think I agree on the Ancient discussion, just not enough output from them really. The terminator maybe being the exception, but I don’t own that model I’m afraid. I think that’s why I’ve not used it yet, just other things that do more for the army.

 

Seems I’m swimming against the current in my opinion on the Master of the Forge. I’ve really enjoyed using him so far, he’s kept the Dreads kicking for far longer than they’d should have. I typically have Tigurius nearby too, so the get a 5++ inv and one could else get MoH. He also manages a fair number of attacks should he get into a scrap too.

 

I’ve not used the Judiciar yet, what was the nerf to him? He still picks a unit to fight last right?