How To Improve Space Marine Tanks

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I wish tanks were better in combat than they are now. The largely pointless exercise of rolling 3 dice per tank (at most) hoping for 6s is as pointless and fun sapping as Overwatch in 8th. 

 

[Guest Triszin]

Make transport capacity a PT upgrade.

 

This would allow more rep exe to be used

[solarisqc]

Tank are support vehicule/fire platform and need to have some special rule to represent this. A tank don't have to/can't react to infantry arround it, it need to rely an allie infantry to take care of close threat. but ennemy infantry need to be realy carefull when they are in proximity of ennemy tank if they don't want to be roll over.

 

The following rules will be for all vehicule that look like a tank or fonction as a tank or a realy big monster. I think it can even become a keyword. Titanic will be the same rule but with some change.

 

Tank/big monster:

 

1- Movement:

• Ennemy model can always move even if they start the movement phase within engagement range of this unit, this move don't count as a fall back move.
• This unit can always move even if they start the movement phase within engagement range, this move don't count as a fall back move.
• This unit can always move over any non vehicule or monster model. If it end it's move over model, they most move at the closest space available in engagement range, this move don't count as a charge move.
• Turbo Boost (advance 6'' like bike)
• This unit can never charge

 

This rule fix the problem of movement and open tactical option to break enemy line. With no charge move, the maximum move on turn 1 will be arround 18'' so no turn 1 blitz.

 

2- Shooting:

• This unit can always shoot or be the target of range attack even if they are in engagement range
• If this unit have not move and is not within engagement range, you can reroll any dice role when shooting (# of shot, hit and wound)

This rule fix the problem of locking in combat to stop them from shooting but if you engage it, you can seriously lower the range damage output. It also represent the stable fire platform when immobile.

 

3- Combat:

• This unit make a single attack against any ennemy model in engagement range.

Tank are WS 6+, it represent the small chance to be hit by a moving tank or the ravage a big monster can do if he's close to you  .

 

4- Objective

• This unit can never control an objective (Knight will have a special rule to be obj. secure canceling this rule)
• Ennemy unit within engagement range of this unit lose obj. sec.
• This unit count as X model for contesting objective, X=remaining wound.

This rule fix the problem of siting on objective unsupport and force you to have some unit to support them also, you can't realy focus on your objective when you have an unwound Tank/Monster breaking your formation/defence line, but a unit surronding an almost dead Tank/Monster will still control the objective.

 

Those rules don't fix the problem of survivability, but it will make them a real threat if left uncheck and help represent the steel behemoth and fire platform they are IRL.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’d like to see transhummie and 5++ for our heavy tanks. T9 does nothing when Havocs with cannons can nuke our heavy tanks using vets and prescience.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I don't really care if a dedicated combo can one hit stuff and I don't think trying to adjust durability to withstand it is going to be a winning venture. The noise marine combo can kill everything in the game for example. Repentia would still mow through any of them in one phase. Other stuff.

 

Generic defensive measures that help recapture the feeling of a vehicle requiring anti tank weapons to start dealing damage to it, instead of just being deleted by the first squad that looks it's way and being mopped up by any anti-infantry guns if it happens to survive.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

All tank are overprice and to easy to destroy. They need to do a completed overhaul of the vehicule rules but i don't think it's for this edition. They need to redo all codex first and level the powel level of each armies.

 

I don't think a point decrease is the solution, we don't want more tank on the table, we need tank to be more durable. My biggest problem with tank now is thay make them killable by everything. In RL, you can shot 1 million 7.62 round at a TANK and you will only scratch the paint on it. The game need more rules/mechanic for vehicule for interaction with the different type of vehicule.

 

I don't included dreadnought because they are working now, mainly because of duty eternal.

 

For SM

Light/exposed crew: Land speeder, invader ATV, Invictor tactical warsuit, Firestrike servo-Turrets

Medium/open top/aircraft: Land speeder storm, Drop pod, Rhino, Razorback, Whirlwind, Impulsor, StormHawk, Stormtalon

Battle tank, Heavy aircraft: Predator, Vindicator, Hunter, Stalker, Gladiator, Stormraven

Heavy tank: Land raider, Repulsor, Executioner, Hammerfall bunker

Titanic: Thunderhawk, Stormbird

 

The toughness and wound mechanic alone is not working anymore with thing like BA that can wound a Land raider or knight on 4+ with a powersword on the charge. Or a bataillon of Guard that can kill a knight with lasgun.

 

Something interesting will be a special FNP save for vehicule base on it's class and add an ANTI TANK rules on some weapon to remove this special save (Melta, lance, titanic weapon)

Light/exposed crew: no save

Medium/open top/aircraft: 6+

Battle tank, Heavy aircraft: 5+

Heavy tank: 4+

Titanic: 3+

You mean a complete overhaul like bringing back armor values and making it so S3 or 4 weapons had basically no chance of hurting landraider as and baneblades?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

They’ll never bring back armor facing... too many arguments.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I don't really care if a dedicated combo can one hit stuff and I don't think trying to adjust durability to withstand it is going to be a winning venture. The noise marine combo can kill everything in the game for example. Repentia would still mow through any of them in one phase. Other stuff.

 

Generic defensive measures that help recapture the feeling of a vehicle requiring anti tank weapons to start dealing damage to it, instead of just being deleted by the first squad that looks it's way and being mopped up by any anti-infantry guns if it happens to survive.

I don't think the issue with tanks is that low strength weapons can hurt them because it's a pretty inefficient way to get rid of one.

 

It has more to do with how good the anti-tank weapons are in the first place. I've been playing since 3rd edition and I can say with no hesitation that melta has never been better, as cheap, or been available to as many platforms. I think this is true for pretty much all of the anti-tank weapons. There definitely part of why vehicles are struggling.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Well said Jorin.

[Brother Kraskor]

Would tanks simply having loads more wounds be a simple solution? Would make it pretty much pointless to direct small arms fire at them and still require concentrated AT fire to take them down.

[SkimaskMohawk]

It's part of the issue jorin, and as I mentioned I think tanks get deleted by dedicated anti tank.

 

Heavy bolters used to bounce off of most vehicles, now they chunk down vehicles.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Small arms fire can nuke tanks as well when it’s buffed... veteran of the long war, prescience, tactical doctrine, etc.

[6262]

Just make it so that while in the first vehicle bracket the most damage a vehicle can take from a single attack is 2 or 3.  Or maybe just a blanket -2 damage per attack; but I personally prefer capping it as you would then be more likely mix your anti-tank options more between heavy hitters and cover the air with bullets anti-tank options.  

 

Once the progress to the next bracket the rule goes away and they take the full brunt of what's hitting them....probably spell out that rules that consider the vehicle as a bracket higher don't function for this rule.  

 

Or just give tanks the old school shadow fields like what Dark Eldar used to have.  3++ (Sorry 2++ is too crazy for me) till it cracks when the armor gives out on the first failed save.  Either way it is fun to brainstorm what will never be except in a few one of houseruled games here and there. 

Edited February 23, 2021 by 6262

[Jings]

So having given this some thought, here's how I'd approach the topic of improving tank durability

 

Light/Medium/Heavy Armour: When resolving a shooting attack with an AP value of -1/2/3 or lower against this model, the AP value of the attack is treated as 0 unless the model making the attack is within line-of-sight of the rear of the model. If a model makes a shooting attack with an AP value higher than -1/2/3 against this model and is within line of sight of the rear of the model, add +1 to the Wound roll to that attack. 

 

This seems wordy, but I'll explain further. 

 

So there's actually a fairly underutilized mechanic in the game that I think could substantially help vehicles - AP "soak". Rubric Marines, for example, currently ignore AP-1 and treat it as 0, and a number of other units have a similar mechanic. I think this could be incredibly valuable for vehicles - particularly tanks. 

 

It would essentially be halfway return to the pre-8th AP system, in that it ignores all AP below a certain threshold. This is a powerful rule, however, so I think again looking back to pre-8th is key to balancing it - namely allowing models that can make direct line of sight to the rear of the model to ignore the soak, and giving benefits to wound rolls for models that are above the soak limit provided they can see the rear of the model. 

 

There could be a strong argument that a wider distribution of Invul saves would alleviate this issue in a much simpler way, and on the surface it would. However, Invuls essentially top out the Max AP that a unit can be hit with (and therefore protect more from high AP rather than the low), while Soaks retain high-AP anti-tank weaponry effectiveness while limiting the effectiveness of small arms. Soak would allow for certain units to flatly ignore low AP and get a stronger benefit from those Soaked weapons while in cover, without limiting the effectiveness of anti-tank weaponry. 

 

This does not mean that invuls should not be more commonly distributed however. Units such as the Repulsor and Land Raider are beefy enough to justify at least a 5++ invul, and would greatly benefit in survivability from using these mechanics concurrently to increase survivability. I don't think Gladiators and Predators-tier tanks would be particularly OP with a 5/6++ either. 

 

I think this, along with more liberal usage of higher Toughness values, would go a long way in making tanks more useful and provide them a niche as (relatively) low damage dealers that are incredibly tough to shift, unless you have a lot of big guns or you're prepared to do some clever positioning. 

Edited February 23, 2021 by Jings

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Would tanks simply having loads more wounds be a simple solution? Would make it pretty much pointless to direct small arms fire at them and still require concentrated AT fire to take them down.

The simplest solution is probably just a discount. If predators dropped 30 pts, the lascannon variant would be within 5 points of eradicators. You would have 4 shots at higher strength, and have much better range but have worse ap, and two fewer shots. There are other factors like movement, damage allocation, and stratagems but at least they're in a similar ball park.

 

 

I like how fast the game plays now, so a 20% discount for marine tanks would be my preferred route if I'm being honest. The main point of my earlier post was that anti-tank needs to get nerfed before you can really increase durability.

[Waking Dreamer]

Another (pretty simple) option would be to give all units with the "Vehicle" or "Building" Key Word -1 to Wound.

 

Then, give selected weapons (i.e. Melta, Lascannons, Railguns, Pulse Lasers, Heavy Gauss Cannon, Chainfists, etc. etc.) a rule called "Anti-Tank" which could be added to their profiles, just like "Blast" was added to weapon profiles this past year.

 

Weapons with the "Anti-Tank" rule would ignore this -1 to Wound on Vehicles/Buildings, unlike all other weapons in the game.

 

On a side note, factions like Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors, who are supposed to specialize in killing tanks and vehicles, could get some special rules (i.e. maybe part of their Super Doctrine) allowing them to give "Anti-Tank" to additional weapons that normally don't get access to it (say, all S7 and above weapons could get "Anti-Tank" when their Super Doctrine is active.... so, Autocannons, Krak Missiles, Plasma, etc.)

 

I really like this one. It has precedent in the original 8ed rules (eg. "Hard to Hit" means -1 to Hit), along with simple 9ed rules changes with keywords like the addition to "Blast".

 

No need to overhaul large numbers of datasheets with T9, T10 etc. Or have a new armour facing system - that needs to be fit into the 9ed style (what exactly is the cut-off between the front, side and back armour of a Xeno Wave Serpent...?). 

 

Just a question, would S4 vs T8 Vehicle (with -1 to wound rule) mean they cannot wound it at all, or that S4 along with S5, S6 and S7 are all wounding T8 on a roll of 6+ ?

[Ishagu]

Landraider variants - all drop by 50 points

 

Repulsors - Give them the Fly Keyword back, Drop by 50 points

 

Machine Spirit change - Balistic Skill is not reduced when the vehicle drops a bracket due to damage (only applies when unit is within 6" of Techmarine)

 

Gladiators - Give them Fly keyword back, drop by 50 points, save improved to 2+

 

Predators - Drop by 20 points

 

Impulsor - Give them Fly keyword, drop by 30 points

Edited February 23, 2021 by Ishagu

[Captain Idaho]

Those points values drops are pretty good. I'd probably drop the Predator by 25-30pts. Edited February 23, 2021 by Captain Idaho

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Landraider variants - all drop by 50 points

Repulsors - Give them the Fly Keyword back, Drop by 50 points

Machine Spirit change - Balistic Skill is not reduced when the vehicle drops a bracket due to damage (only applies when unit is within 6" of Techmarine)

Gladiators - Give them Fly keyword back, drop by 50 points, save improved to 2+

Predators - Drop by 20 points

Impulsor - Give them Fly keyword, drop by 30 points

This

[MegaVolt87]

I would change the base to wound bracket table/USR of strength half (or less) from 6+ to 7+, so always fails. Really at that point fishing for 6+ for chip dmg, exploding 6's etc is just rubbish, you should take some real AT or be punished accordingly if you don't. So add a strength check that would kneecap stuff like poison, exploding 6's off weak strength weapons that shouldn't be that good at AT in the first place.eg, your 3+/4+ poison doesn't trigger because the strength like 0-4 is too low to cause wounds, same with exploding 6's from low strength attacks. GW needs to add new/ modify better AT weapons for everyone to move away from this lazy dmg output design. Also the medium/heavy/ titanic idea of reducing AP by -1/-2/-3 respectively a good idea. Put into practice-

 

Land Raider T10, 2+ sv, heavy vehicle (-2 AP modifier)= Immune to attacks S5 or less and reduces AP by -2, immune to all chip dmg and low strength dmg knock on effects. A lascannon will wound the LR on a 5+ and the save will be 3+ as the lascannon AP debuffs to -1 AP. This is more in line with the older editions of when this vehicle was a tough nut to crack, but not impossible. 

 

repulsor, executioner- see LR, but add back fly and now we are starting to be worth the points here + the upgunned primaris vehicle philosophy. 

 

Predator- T9, 2+ sv, medium vehicle (-1 AP modifier)- ignores the very common chip dmg bracket of S4 or less, ignores AP -1 profiles. S5 can trouble the unit, wounding on 5+, so a heavy bolter crossfire is still a concern, however an unmodified save of 2+ against such attacks helps you out. Lascannon wounds on 4+, your save is 4+, I think thats a more reasonable dmg curve vs being wounded on a 3+ and only getting a 6+ sv on the stock profile vs lascannon. 

 

Gladiators- see predators, except they get fly back also.

 

Vindicator- this thing is meant for siege and urban warfare, so it should skip sicko mode and go straight to   mode. T9, 2+ sv, siege shield rolled into stock loadout, x2 pintle stormbolters or dual combi melta, flamer, plasma. Points increase obviously. *chefs kiss*.   Oh, a 2-3 CP strat to turn the demolisher to assault instead of heavy profile for one shooting phase would be great as well. 

 

Everything else- these are light, specialist vehicles so simple points cuts can solve it. Could make some like the storm speeders medium to modify attacks by -1 AP if anything. 

 

If that's not enough buffs for your primaris vehicles, perhaps an additional rule of being -1 to hit if they move their full distance in the mvt phase if they have the FLY keyword. Or this could be a multi use 1 CP cost primaris exclusive FLY keyword stratagem.

 

This way, the new T values are more in line with the older AV system fixing the spiked dmg, while it still hurts when the wounds hit through due to the dmg buffs like D6+x, D3+x etc on weapons that are real AT weapons. Obviously, wounds and points will need tweaking slightly to fit but I think this is the way to fix frontline vehicles in general- xenos would break/ mix this philosophy with invuln's and more common -1 to hit, fly, stratagems, reduced enemy charge distance to keep them out of melee etc. 

Edited February 24, 2021 by MegaVolt87

[Bulwyf]

Points drop mean nothing when they still die like flies. Give them a 5++ in the current rules. Unless we go back to facing which I hope never, ever happens there's no other simple fix for this.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

What good is Fly on Repulsors or Impulsors if it doesn't allow fall back and shoot? If it's just for mobility, having them fly over buildings like they aren't there was just stupid and immersion breaking in the first place. They hover, they don't fly. Edited February 24, 2021 by Brother Adelard

[Ishagu]

What good is Fly on Repulsors or Impulsors if it doesn't allow fall back and shoot? If it's just for mobility, having them fly over buildings like they aren't there was just stupid and immersion breaking in the first place. They hover, they don't fly.

Moving over terrain and not around it. Really helps with deploying safety without sacrificing a turn or two being out of position. The rule can be changed so they can't end their movement on top of a building, for the sake of immersion.

 

 

Points drop mean nothing when they still die like flies. Give them a 5++ in the current rules. Unless we go back to facing which I hope never, ever happens there's no other simple fix for this.

Of course they do. Everything in the game can be destroyed. If the tank is a smaller chunk of the army the loss isn't as significant. Also if they are cheaper it allows for potential redundancy. This can apply to any unit.

Edited February 24, 2021 by Ishagu

[Sword Brother Adelard]

But those tanks can't do that in the lore, so why would they be able to do that in game?

 

If you want that, buy Storm Speeders.

[Ishagu]

In the lore they are dropped from space like Drop Pods and can hover over oceans, ruins, etc

 

One way or another they should not have the same movement restrictions as a tracked vehicle.

 

Alternatively give them the ability to drop in like Drop Pods and to move over all terrain that is less than 5" tall as if it isn't there.