Question regarding how Devout Push works

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I want to make sure I can explain how it works to opponents so they understand:

 

If I do it my turn after disembarking do I have to declare the enemy unit(s) as a charge target? How does it work I can assault them?

 

If I do it during the opponent turn what are the rules that allow me to assault enemy unit(s)?

[Brother Sidonius]

Mechanically we’re treated as being in an on going combat. When we select a unit that Devout Pushed to fight we’re within engagement range so we’re eligible to fight. But we didn’t charge this phase so there’s no restrictions on who is eligible target of our attacks.

 

To argue that we can’t attack the unit that we pile into with Devout Push because we didn’t declare them as a charge you would also have to argue that all units in on going combats can’t attack each other because they didn’t charge them this turn.

 

This of course means that Devout Push can be used in your opponents turn to get you into engagement range and eligible to fight.

 

A more concise and logical argument would look something like this:

 

- Units are eligible to be selected to fight if they are within engagement range or charged this turn. Therefore, units that enter combat with Devout Push can be selected to fight, even though they weren’t in engagement range at the beginning of the Phase. You do not have to declare a target for their pile in move.

 

- A unit that charged can only declare attacks against the unit it charged. A unit that used Devout Push did not charge and therefore is not restricted by this rule. It can declare attacks against any units in engagement range.

 

- All of these rules are true in your turn and your opponents turn. Therefore you can use Devout Push to get into engagement range and fight in your turn or your opponents.

 

 

I hope my argument is helpful for your needs :)

Edited February 26, 2021 by Brother Sidonius

[Brother Kraskor]

I want to make sure I can explain how it works to opponents so they understand:

 

If I do it my turn after disembarking do I have to declare the enemy unit(s) as a charge target? How does it work I can assault them?

 

If I do it during the opponent turn what are the rules that allow me to assault enemy unit(s)?

 

It is decidedly not a charge, as it is used in the Fight phase itself, after the Charge phase is over. Which also means no overwatch, as this happens in the Charge phase.

 

It effectively allows an out of sequence Pile In at the start of the Fight phase. Once the Push is done, you proceed with the Fight phase as normal: select eligible units to fight, starting with units that charged/fight first (not the Pushers!), and then the rest (the Pushers!) with the player who's turn it isn't going first as per normal. Which does mean if you Push in the enemy turn, you should be able to fight first if you choose the Push unit as your first pick. So really it isn't a good idea to get within 3" of BT units.

Edited February 26, 2021 by Brother Kraskor

[Tokugawa]

It make your unit legally move into engage range, with skipping the whole charge step.

[Medjugorje]

and dont forget - there are more ways to use it. 

 

you can devot push into a aircraft unit RAW and then attack them.

[Brother Kraskor]

and dont forget - there are more ways to use it. 

 

you can devot push into a aircraft unit RAW and then attack them.

 

You can Push into combat with the aircraft, but then you still can't attack them unless you can Fly (unless other flyers have different rules to Marine ones!). And the flyer can just leave combat without penalty in opponent's turn anyway.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Thanks.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

The best way to understand it is that it's just a free, three-inch move at the very beginning of the fight phase.

 

However, because it's a Pile-inove, not a Normal Move, you can end it within engagement range of enemy models.

It's the ability to move into engagement range which is key, as it makes the unit eligible to fight, and means it can make another pile in when selected to do so.

[Tokugawa]

A VanVet unit could even fall back (in forward direction) 12", active this strategem, pile in 3", and catch an enemy heavy weapon squad which sit at very backyard.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Super sneaky !

[Brother Sidonius]

It make your unit legally move into engage range, with skipping the whole charge step.

I’ve never thought to pile in into an aircraft. That’s brilliant!

[Brother Kraskor]

 

It make your unit legally move into engage range, with skipping the whole charge step.

I’ve never thought to pile in into an aircraft. That’s brilliant!

 

 

We were trying to work out what possible benefit there would be in the 9th edition thread. As the flyer can just leave combat without falling back (no fall back = no tenacious assault), and you can't attack it... why bother? 

[Urkh]

Even if you can't attack the aircraft, would you be able to still activate the squad that pushed into it though? If you can, then with clever positioning, it could be possible (albeit very difficult?) to canticles of hate a squad, get a 6" devout push (since the pile in is boosted), get within engagement range, but not base contact with the aircraft, then when you activate your squad, get another 6" pile in move, which could allow you move guys so you're in engagement range of a unit you can attack. As long as your minis are closer to the nearest enemy from where they started, you can donthat, right? Very niche situation I feel, but should be possible.

[Brother Kraskor]

Even if you can't attack the aircraft, would you be able to still activate the squad that pushed into it though? If you can, then with clever positioning, it could be possible (albeit very difficult?) to canticles of hate a squad, get a 6" devout push (since the pile in is boosted), get within engagement range, but not base contact with the aircraft, then when you activate your squad, get another 6" pile in move, which could allow you move guys so you're in engagement range of a unit you can attack. As long as your minis are closer to the nearest enemy from where they started, you can donthat, right? Very niche situation I feel, but should be possible.

 

I like what you're thinking, you would be able to activate the squad and pile-in a second time. But the pile in is not boosted to 6", consolidation is. Pile in is still 3". And while this would be a legitimate reason to Push a flyer, I think it's probably one in a million! 

Edited February 28, 2021 by Brother Kraskor

[Sword Brother Adelard]

No, he was right, the pile in is boosted as well if Canticle of Hate is active on the unit as well. Canticle boosts both consolidate moves and Pile ins to 6", but isn't cumulative with the boost to consolidating that Devout Push gives you.

[Brother Kraskor]

...derp. I didn't read it properly, missed the Canticle of Hate. Apologies Urkh you were completely right and I was wrong! Off to the painglove for me!

[Sword Brother Adelard]

The 6" pile in with Devout Push is insane. I did it in a game last year (this was pre-codex) where I got Canticle off at the beginning of the battle round. My Scions opponent alpha'd me with two Valkyries dropping everything in melta range, and strat dropped a command squad 6" away from my intercessors, thinking he was safe, but these were the ones who were next to the chaplain. In his own turn, I yeeted my intercessors into the command squad, butchered them, consolidated into another squad, then in my own turn, butchered them too. He just didn't see it coming. Edited March 1, 2021 by Brother Adelard

[Brother Kraskor]

A castle around a Chaplain that has popped Canticle effectively has a 6" do-not-enter bubble, I like it! Could be a huge footprint on the table if you space correctly. And is there almost a benefit to not actually charging yourself but just creating this buffer, ideally over objectives. If the enemy comes in they will get tackled in their own turn, leading nicely to your own turn when you can adapt as necessary.

Edited March 1, 2021 by Brother Kraskor

[Medjugorje]

A castle around a Chaplain that has popped Canticle effectively has a 6" do-not-enter bubble, I like it! Could be a huge footprint on the table if you space correctly. And is there almost a benefit to not actually charging yourself but just creating this buffer, ideally over objectives. If the enemy comes in they will get tackled in their own turn, leading nicely to your own turn when you can adapt as necessary.

And with a Judiciar very good against anything else.

[Brother Kraskor]

 

A castle around a Chaplain that has popped Canticle effectively has a 6" do-not-enter bubble, I like it! Could be a huge footprint on the table if you space correctly. And is there almost a benefit to not actually charging yourself but just creating this buffer, ideally over objectives. If the enemy comes in they will get tackled in their own turn, leading nicely to your own turn when you can adapt as necessary.

And with a Judiciar very good against anything else.

 

 

That's disgusting. I love it! Just seize the centre objectives and stand there menacingly.