Support vs Beatstick Characters in BA armies

[Xenith]

This is something I've been pondering in my Tournament Musings.

 

With so many good, fighty units in a BA army (SG, DC, VV), are we in a position to be able to forego sole-melee characters entirely and stock up on [cheaper] support characters, or replace them with more effective melee units? 

 

Starting with the former king of the ring, slamguinius? While still a guided missile, he's lost some of his lustre, and for the ~130-150 points he costs, you can get a unit of DC or Sanguinary guard who can have something like 20 more attacks than him.

 

The Sanguinary priest has already found its way into most lists, being able to resurrect units is such a huge advantage it's a no-brainer. 

 

A Null Zone libby answers some of the questions in how BA deal with heavy Invulnerable save stuff. Though he has to get danger close for NZ, he is at least respectable in melee with a sword.

 

A Primaris Chaplain on bike is cheap and pretty tough, and with Mantra of Strength and Benediction of Fury he's a mini beatstick hitting at S7 and a respectable D4. 

 

In particular, I'm wondering what will be better for this list:

 

 

++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Blood Angels) ++

 

 

+ HQ +

 

Captain on Bike: 5. Gift of Foresight, Storm shield, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, Thunder hammer, Visage of Death

 

Librarian: 3) Null Zone (Aura), Chapter Command:  Chief Librarian, Force sword, Jump Pack, Psychic Mastery, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, Tome of Malcador

 

Sanguinary Priest: 2. Artisan of War, Artificer Armour, Astartes Chainsword, Bolt pistol, Chapter Command:  Chief Apothecary, Jump Pack, Selfless Healer, Stratagem: Angel Exemplar, Teeth of Terra, Warlord

 

+ Troops +

 

Infiltrator Squad: Helix gauntlet

. 4x Infiltrator: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Marksman bolt carbine

. Infiltrator Sergeant

 

+ Elites +

 

Sanguinary Guard

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine axe

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine axe

 

Vanguard Veteran Squad: Jump Pack

. Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield

. Vanguard Veteran: Power sword, Storm shield

. Vanguard Veteran: Power fist, Storm shield

. Vanguard Veteran: Power fist, Storm shield

. Vanguard Veteran Sergeant: Power fist, Storm shield

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Attack Bike Squad

. Attack Bike: Multi-melta

. Attack Bike: Multi-melta

. Attack Bike: Multi-melta

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Whirlwind: Whirlwind castellan launcher

 

++ Total: [63 PL, 1CP, 1,130pts] ++

 

Created with BattleScribe

 

A captain on bike with TH+SS, or a Librarian with Null Zone. There's already two hard-hitting units and a great shooting unit in the attack bikes. The priest is also no slouch in combat, and the librarian can probably pull his weight.

 

So in short, what's your philosopy on melee v support characters, particularly in small games? More boys, or toys to make sure they boys can do their job?

[Helias_Tancred]

I generally go one and one; a beatstick and a support. But I'm not a competitive player, I'm playing with a close circle of friends.

[The Unseen]

For that list?

Probably the libby, or a chaplain.

If it was a chapter master I could see the argument, as you could give the Vanguard the rerolls and keep him close to the SG and have effectively full rerolls for both units.

But anything your captain could kill, either melee unit will do it better, and being able to turn off invuls and throw exploding 6s or a 5++ onto something is probably more valuable most of the time.

[Helias_Tancred]

I actually was thinking about running an apothecary and a SP, based on another post on here ... just to see if two healers/revivers would make a difference? Because like you said we have several good beatdown units to make ups for lack of a beatstick character.

[Karhedron]

I think being a beatstick alone is no longer good enough simply because our characters are not beaty enough in 9th to do the heavy lifting themselves. 9th seems to be about synergy so picking the right tools for the job is the name of the game.

 

I like running my plasma Inceptors so for me, a Captain still has good mileage but he is certainly no longer a must-have unit. I also tend to run him a bit cheaper than 8th with a Relic Blade instead of his trusty Thunder Hammer. With Red Thirst, even a simple MC power sword might be enough in a lot of cases.

 

Control of mid board Objectives seems to be crucial so comboing the relic Deathmask to turn off enemy ObjSec with Rites of Battle to give nearby friendlies extra ObjSec looks like a powerful combo on paper. The good thing is any character can roll with that pairing although I think Captain/Commander or Chaplain are the most promising candidates.

[Shaezus]

The point Xenith made about...points...is the crux of it for me; I'll take a squad of hammered - up DC over a smash cap now. Maybe it's the changes to red rampage and unleash rage but the alpha FF with a squad is less CP costly and with rerolls almost guaranteed to take out anything like a plagueburst crawler in one round.

 

Points trade is the same reason I'm leaning away from the priest / apothecary now. But then if I could, I would fit him in next.

 

Definitely support over beat stick though. Rerolls are just as important as in 8th and noticeable in their absence.

 

A jumpy / bikey chapter master buffs well, has decent punch in melee by the time he needs it and is ideal for cheeky late game VP swing with the rites of war and visage of death combo

[DistractionTacMarine]

A tooled-up smash Captain has like 7 attacks with a hammer, rerolling nothing (unless you took Gift of Foresight). The same points of Sanguinary Guard would get 25 attacks. Even at lower S and D, 25 attacks is always going to be better than 7.

 

That said there’s nothing more satisfying than just nuking something with a smash character. These days it just makes more sense for it to be a bike chaplain than a Captain.

[Xenith]

Coming back to this, now most invuns are 4++, I'm taking a ~150pt libby to try and prevent 50% of my damage from being blocked by that save, and it's not even guaranteed. What I can do is instead of the 150pt libby take 5 more sanguinary guard...which in the end will have the same effect as removing the invun save in terms of wounds getting past it. Same with a captain rerolling 1's, a unit of 5 SanGuard onthe charge will get ~4 1's in combat...for the cost of the captain you can add 4 more sanguard and incrase the overall # of hits. In this instance, a priest putting them into assault doctrine adds 5 attacks, which is superior to rerolling 1's. 

 

Edit: I know this seems to be a feature of having some great assault options, like San/Van Guard and DC. It reminds me of Tyranids a bit in 8th, where with a more negative mentality, you had to ask yourself: "is this unit better than an equal points of genestealers" and the answer was 85% no, as stealers were so efficient. 

 

I'm glad that we actually have a range of decent assault options where we have the option of not having to play herohammer.

Edited March 5, 2021 by Xenith

[Karhedron]

8th edition encouraged maximising our HQ slots. 9th seems to involve Elites doing a lot of the heavy lifting. I think more boots on the ground will often yield better results. A squad can also hold Objectives better than a character.

[The Unseen]

Null Zone is more important for removing invuls to let shooting do some heavy lifting vs things you don't want to charge or can't reach I find.

Mortarion won't die to 5 more SG charging him.

But he might if he gets volleyed by eradicagors without his 4++.

[Xenith]

Null Zone is more important for removing invuls to let shooting do some heavy lifting vs things you don't want to charge or can't reach I find.

Mortarion won't die to 5 more SG charging him.

But he might if he gets volleyed by eradicagors without his 4++.

That was a reason to take the Libby, to give attack bikes some power, but the Libby still has to get within 6" for null zone to work :/

[redshadow]

My last couple of games I’ve taken

 

Primarus chaplain on bike

W/Angel exemplar/artisan of war for master crafted crozius/mantra of strength/visage of Death/gift of foresight

 

Primarus Mephiston

 

Captain

W/hammer of Baal/jump pack/hero of the Chapter/the imperium’s sword/storm shield

 

Each one a threat by themselves, all good at different things giving options against different opponents

[Xenith]

My last couple of games I’ve taken

 

Primarus chaplain on bike

W/Angel exemplar/artisan of war for master crafted crozius/mantra of strength/visage of Death/gift of foresight

 

Primarus Mephiston

 

Captain

W/hammer of Baal/jump pack/hero of the Chapter/the imperium’s sword/storm shield

 

Each one a threat by themselves, all good at different things giving options against different opponents

 

Interesting, but all these Characters seem pure damage dealers/self buffing - the chaplain mantras himself, Meph really wants wings and quickening, the captain maybe can stick with a unit - that would be your preference then?

[redshadow]

 

 

My last couple of games I’ve taken

 

Primarus chaplain on bike

W/Angel exemplar/artisan of war for master crafted crozius/mantra of strength/visage of Death/gift of foresight

 

Primarus Mephiston

 

Captain

W/hammer of Baal/jump pack/hero of the Chapter/the imperium’s sword/storm shield

 

Each one a threat by themselves, all good at different things giving options against different opponents

Interesting, but all these Characters seem pure damage dealers/self buffing - the chaplain mantras himself, Meph really wants wings and quickening, the captain maybe can stick with a unit - that would be your preference then?

Only recently, I was all about the priest, Dante, librarian and sanguinary ancient giving all the buffs, but things have change for me, threat saturation seems to get me more results now all the HQs can take out squads by themselves and clear/take objectives while been fast and can hide well, ok none of them are captain smash but all have different attributes, the chaplain with his 4 damage crozius can chew throw high wound models with medium to high toughness, the captain with the hammer of Baal can put wounds on anything and a well placed mephiston can get stuff done. Rather than having week characters that buff I’ve gone the total opposite now. Edited March 7, 2021 by redshadow

[Karhedron]

The game does seem to be more about MSU Elites in 9th edition. Having characters buffing units early game but being capable of shooting off an soloing small squads late game to nab Objectives might yield results. Could be pricey though, particularly on CPs and you will want these characters fairly tooled-up.

[Adorondak]

I'm finding fewer characters and more boots are the way to go, I usually only bring a priest and ether the chaplain or chapter master these days, with as many small units of sang guard as I can fit.

[Thoridon]

I've tried a few approaches in 9th and not quite sure which way I'd lean in a competitive list. For the usual friendly games I tend to lean towards favourite models and thinking "Hmm, I haven't used that one for a while, I should give it a go!".

 

As has been mentioned, from a raw numbers perspective a small squad of elites like SG will offer more damage on a point-to-point basis along with better protection against higher damage weapons where an unsaved wound would see excess damage 'wasted' rather than taking out a character in one go. That said, a character offers other benefits like protection from shooting and being able to fit into places where a squad might be blocked due to lack of space.

 

I think the main reason I like a 'beatstick' character is Blade of Sanguinius. It's simply a fun objective having a character hunt down an enemy character, and engaging on both sides compared to a typical "hold X objectives for 3 points.". I can see myself including 1-2 melee focused characters and taking that quite often when I play BA.

 

As for buffing characters there's a similar issue. Granting an extra point of strength or rerolling 1s is nice to give to a unit but buffs like that really need to be granted to bigger squads to get the most out of them, and bigger squads aren't necessarily the ideal thing right now. Similar to melee characters being less efficient than an extra squad for damage per point you could also say a support character is less efficient than simply using those points on an extra squad instead, especially when sticking to smaller MSU units. That said, a character can hop around to move the buff between squads, particularly if given a jump pack.

 

A major point for me is plasma. If I'm taking plasma it's because I want to overcharge quite often, and depending on the unit with the plasma I'm probably going to want a Captain with them for rerolling 1s - eg. with Hellblasters. The exception would be if it's something like a Tactical or Assault squad with a couple of plasma guns - that wouldn't be worth the cost. Though even with Hellblasters I should probably consider the opportunity cost of taking that Captain if I could just take extra Hellblasters with those points and accept that some will blow up more often.

 

I think in general I've used too many characters in some of my lists. For my next one I might try 1-2 melee characters, maybe a support char and then focus more on extra squads.

[Karhedron]

Characters that have Aura buffs work better with MSU than Characters that buff individual units since they may be able to keep multiple squads in aura range, particularly in the first couple of turns which are often crucial for dealing damage.

 

The thing about the Null Zone Libby is that he costs around 150 points when fully tooled up with Master Librarian and Jump Pack. Yes he may double the potency of your Eradicators or MM Attack bikes but only against units that have a 4++. And to do that he has to get close to the enemy which is risky. He then has to successfully cast the power and hope your opponent does not deny it.

 

For 150 points you could roughly buy another squad of Eradicators or MM attack bikes. That will give you the same effect vs units with a 4++ and much better results against units without. They are harder kill than a single Libby and cannot be countered by a lucky Deny the Witch.

 

Now this is exaggerating slightly as the Libby will likely to be doing more than just Casting Null Zone but it does lend weight to the idea of more boots on the ground with just minimal buffing characters.

[Majkhel]

Another thought to consider for the "more units" approach is target saturation. Mostly having shooting in mind.
When you have a unit and a character, the enemy has simple task of choosing the target. He usually cannot target the character, so he shoots the unit. When he has 2 units to choose from, he needs to make a decision.