Exorcists gene-seed primogenitor named!

[Skywrath]

So the new warhammer article dropped a few seconds ago, and we were hit with this bombshell:

 

Exorcists are descended from Imperial Fists gene-stock! 

 

First of all, honestly, I..just don't see it. Nothing about what the Exorcists are or do represent the core tenants of the chapter they are descended from. Sure there are parallels with the other chapter in that article, but overall, having a real hard time swallowing this. I liked the idea better when they were descended from Grey Knights. Secondly, inb4 when Valrak sees this he's going to have a field day.

 

Anyhow, discuss.

 

Article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/03/01/the-secrets-of-the-exorcists-chapter-revealed-in-marchs-white-dwarf/  

[mawhis]

 

Index Astartes: Exorcists

The Exorcists have long been held among the most controversial Chapters of Space Marines, and with good reason. Forged from the genetic stock of the Primarch Rogal Dorn, they share many of the stoic traits of Imperial Fists successors. Yet, they’re also possessed (quite literally) of a unique quality unlike that of any other Chapter. 

 

From the Warhammer Community Site: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/03/01/the-secrets-of-the-exorcists-chapter-revealed-in-marchs-white-dwarf/

[Marshal Loss]

Would have much preferred that they leave it ambiguous. At first I'd hoped that the article text might state that "while their primogenitor is unknown, we recommend you use (x) rules for (x) reason", but having read the preview image, that is clearly not the case.

[Xenith]

Yea, agree on the above. This is *bad* secret unveiling that didn't need to happen, making the universe that little bit smaller. I guess it's to limit the primogenitor supplement that can be used, but the Exorcist trait can basically be made and use by anyone anyway. 

 

From the 1 page excerpt, they also seem to have changed them from:

 

Special chapter created to combat daemons, whose rites have always included daemonic possession

 

to

 

Normal Codex hapter that somehow fought chaos and now chooses to do weird stuff with daemons.

 

The former implies inquisitorial sanction, which I thought was always there, while the latter is just heretical stuff. What was the original FW expanded background for them?

Edited March 1, 2021 by Xenith

[Skywrath]

I really hope to god that this article is poorly worded at first glance. Something to the tune of: "We think we are descended from Imp.Fists", rather than " We are descended from Imp.Fists". My knowledge of the lore of the Fists is pretty bad, but even I could tell you, those two chapters don't mix like oil and water. Anyone else feel the same way?

[Brother Tyler]

I'm very disappointed that they revealed that, though I suspect that tying the Exorcists to the Imperial Fists is intended to drive the other rules for the Chapter.

 

Those that point to the [now obsolete] lore that the Exorcists were created from the gene-seed of the Grey Knights (and thus, potentially from the Emperor) are sure to be disappointed.

[Brother Tyler]

Note that I've merged both topics about this; and since the Exorcists are now officially an Imperial Fists Successor, the topic is in the Imperial Fists sub-forum (one of the original topics was in the Space Marines forum).

[Brother Kraskor]

For such a fairly stable and reliable 1st Founding they've created a lot of psycho Successor Chapters!

[Dumah]

I would hardly describe the Exorcists as psychos. They are, in fact, described as being very calm and studious while outside of battle.

[Brother Tyler]

The Exorcists aren't "psycho" as a result of their gene-seed. In fact, the stability of the Imperial Fists [Legion] gene-seed was probably the main factor in being chosen for this Chapter.

 

More importantly, none of the lore for the Exorcists paints them as "psycho" in any way. They are subjected to daemonic possession, exorcised, and then appear to be quite reasonable. Sure, they might allow members of their Chapter to inscribe hexagrammatic wards upon their flesh and bones. Sure, they might become frothing madmen in the presence of Chaos daemons. When you look beyond those two elements, however, they can be seen to be quite intellectual and rational.

 

Going back on what I said previously, the part of me that favors the VIIth Legion is pleased that the Exorcists share the genetic lineage of Rogal Dorn. I'm still not happy that the secret was revealed, but a mite less so than I might have been otherwise. Admittedly, a part of me liked the idea of radical Inquisitors taking the gene-seed of the notoriously puritan Grey Knights and daring to corrupt it through daemonic possession - a bit of grand irony there. I'm sure that Rogal Dorn would be no less pissed were he to find out that his genetic sons were subjected to this, but since he's dead (I still cling to the old lore in this ), it doesn't matter. The Grey Knights can still be pissed about this if they ever find out, but they won't take it as personally as they would if the Exorcists were their successor.

 

Despite this poor decision on the part of the authors/GW (in my opinion), I'm still very curious to see the rest of the Index Astartes article and codex supplement.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Don't want to go too much into the rules of it, but I am a little bit disappointed that the Chapter tactic is just the Stalwart and Warded successor traits from the base Codex. I was hoping they would do a little bit more with it, but I guess it is what it is.

 

I don't know what I think about it yet. I'm generally against not knowing the primogenitor of chapters, I think they do the unknown origin thing a bit too often in the lore.

[WAR]

I personally like this it makes sense. Rogal Dorn survived the Siege on Terra, he knew what Daemons were and devised a way to deal with the threat

[Uberlord Gendo]

Haven't we gotten a lot of stuff to imply GK? Given that, why are we taking this particularly seriously?

[Jareddm]

I think this is a great chance to show just how little geneseed lineage can mean to a chapter. So their geneseed is Rogal Dorn. Doesn't mean they love to fortify, or participate in the Feast of Blades, or even acknowledge their heritage.

Do I love this reveal? No. But it's salvageable. I'll definitely be reading the full article.

 

Gav Thorpe on twitter posited an interesting possibility.  What if the geneseed used for the current Grey Knights is Imperial Fists as well?  That the Knights Errant helped start the process, but that none of their geneseed directly went into any of the psyker children being used to start the chapter?  It would've been readily available leading up to the Siege.  This could mean technically Exorcists could still be successors of Grey Knights.  It's a bit silly, I admit, but it's something.

 

Oh!  And of course the obvious reason!  It's so they can have Primaris.  As far as we know there's no way for the Grey Knights to have Primaris.  So to allow the Exorcists to use Primaris units, they couldn't possibly be a Grey Knights successor.

Edited March 1, 2021 by Jareddm

[MECHFACE]

Totally agree Brother Tyler.

 

Imperial Fists! Well I'll admit I did not see that coming. I can imagine how they could work the lore. 1) take a very resistant logical chapter 2) possess it with a daemon and then remove it 3) create a very resistant chapter to the warp. 

 

I'll reserve judgment until I read it but Imperial Fists... really!!!! The rule dynamics are gonna be really funky with the IF successor rules on top of what are only two minor defensive chapter tactic halves. Don't get me wrong, 'Close Range Bolter Fire' and 'Clearance Protocols' are two of my favourite Stratagems for my 'count as' Luna Wolves lists. 

 

It is what it is now though. Glad I got out my own thoughts before this bomb dropped.

 

The Exorcists aren't "psycho" as a result of their gene-seed. In fact, the stability of the Imperial Fists [Legion] gene-seed was probably the main factor in being chosen for this Chapter.

More importantly, none of the lore for the Exorcists paints them as "psycho" in any way. They are subjected to daemonic possession, exorcised, and then appear to be quite reasonable. Sure, they might allow members of their Chapter to inscribe hexagrammatic wards upon their flesh and bones. Sure, they might become frothing madmen in the presence of Chaos daemons. When you look beyond those two elements, however, they can be seen to be quite intellectual and rational.

Going back on what I said previously, the part of me that favors the VIIth Legion is pleased that the Exorcists share the genetic lineage of Rogal Dorn. I'm still not happy that the secret was revealed, but a mite less so than I might have been otherwise. Admittedly, a part of me liked the idea of radical Inquisitors taking the gene-seed of the notoriously puritan Grey Knights and daring to corrupt it through daemonic possession - a bit of grand irony there. I'm sure that Rogal Dorn would be no less pissed were he to find out that his genetic sons were subjected to this, but since he's dead (I still cling to the old lore in this ), it doesn't matter. The Grey Knights can still be pissed about this if they ever find out, but they won't take it as personally as they would if the Exorcists were their successor.

Despite this poor decision on the part of the authors/GW (in my opinion), I'm still very curious to see the rest of the Index Astartes article and codex supplement.

[Shinespider]

I would have preferred for it to remain ambiguous, but insomuch as they were going to reveal it, I feel like Dorn is a solid pick.

 

Successors don't need to have any tactics or culture in common with their primogenitor, so that's irrelevant - doubly so when the chapter in question was hand-crafted for a very specific purpose. 

 

I personally never liked the idea of them being Grey Knight successors - revealing that as their set origin was my worst-case scenario. They were originally framed as spiritual successors to the Grey Knights - a sort of mentorship rather than a genetic link - and it feels like at some point a really lazy writer upgraded that to actual successorship without thinking it through. I'm glad that mistake wasn't set in stone. 

Edited March 1, 2021 by Shinespider

[Closet Skeleton]

 

I don't know what I think about it yet. I'm generally against not knowing the primogenitor of chapters, I think they do the unknown origin thing a bit too often in the lore.

 

When I was first introduced to Space Marine lore at the end of the 90s 'unknown progenitor' and 'unknown founding' wasn't portrayed in any way as being unusual. I'm way more perturbed by chapters being retconned into being second founding when that's supposed to be a small minority of 41st millenium chapters.

 

We're closer to the stone age than the 41st millenium is to the second founding, not knowing anything is supposed to be normal.

Edited March 1, 2021 by Closet Skeleton

[SkimaskMohawk]

I love the comments about power creep in the now locked thread. No one took stalwart and warded in competition and they've been around since 8.5; it's one of the reasons people didnt play with the blood ravens recommended traits.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I love the comments about power creep in the now locked thread. No one took stalwart and warded in competition and they've been around since 8.5; it's one of the reasons people didnt play with the blood ravens recommended traits.

Yeah, I thought that had to be called out. That's ignorance at a fundamental level, those traits are already there and can be taken right now by any successor.

[Jareddm]

 

 

I don't know what I think about it yet. I'm generally against not knowing the primogenitor of chapters, I think they do the unknown origin thing a bit too often in the lore.

 

When I was first introduced to Space Marine lore at the end of the 90s 'unknown progenitor' and 'unknown founding' wasn't portrayed in any way as being unusual. I'm way more perturbed by chapters being retconned into being second founding when that's supposed to be a small minority of 41st millenium chapters.

 

We're closer to the stone age than the 41st millenium is to the second founding, not knowing anything is supposed to be normal.

 

It comes from a mix of the increased legion sizes meaning there's a lot more second founding chapters than previously thought, and from every author's OC chapter wanting to be second founding for a chance to connect to that sweet sweet Horus Heresy goodness.  But all of that is off-topic.

 

As for unknown progenitor/founding, this mostly stemmed from the Blood Ravens and only got worse as people came into 40k without the understanding that sometimes, things in the Imperium just get lost and that not knowing something doesn't mean it was hidden away.  Or that something hidden away was worth not knowing.

[Sete]

Lmao what?

Still, they are a great chapter and a great addition to the IF wall of awesome successors. 

Edited March 1, 2021 by Sete

[Osteoclast]

Personally I'm just glad it's not yet another Ultramarine chapter. I'd've put them down for Dark Angels for flavor reasons though.

 

Yea, agree on the above. This is *bad* secret unveiling that didn't need to happen, making the universe that little bit smaller. I guess it's to limit the primogenitor supplement that can be used, but the Exorcist trait can basically be made and use by anyone anyway. 

 

From the 1 page excerpt, they also seem to have changed them from:

 

Special chapter created to combat daemons, whose rites have always included daemonic possession

 

to

 

Normal Codex hapter that somehow fought chaos and now chooses to do weird stuff with daemons.

 

The former implies inquisitorial sanction, which I thought was always there, while the latter is just heretical stuff. What was the original FW expanded background for them?

 

"The Chapter has long-standing and strong links with the Inquisition and certain factions within the Ordo Malleus in particular, and it is most likely that the sponsorship and designs of the Holy Ordos that has given them their unique character, and may well have specified their creation, either as a grand experiment or for some singular purpose."

 

That gives us:

1) Knowledge: They've got links with the Inquisition and specifically some of the Ordo Malleus.

2) Speculation: They're weird because of said association.

3) Further speculation: Maybe the Inquisition made them for some reason.

 

Contributing evidence for the validity of the further speculation is that the Inquisitorial Representative present classified their gene-seed origin at the time of founding.

[Brother Tyler]

Haven't we gotten a lot of stuff to imply GK? Given that, why are we taking this particularly seriously?

We have one character (unreliable narrator) in some BL books that has stated the kinship with the Grey Knights. Aside from that, there is nothing to indicate any relationship with the Grey Knights aside from the similar focus on Chaos daemons. In fact, everything published after that in-character statement stepped back from the issue, pointedly making their gene-seed a mystery without hinting at the source.

 

And we're taking this seriously because it's official. It's an Index Astartes article in White Dwarf Magazine - canon. From what we know at this point, it looks like a basic fact, more so than the previous BL kinship with the Grey Knights. Whether you consider it a retcon, a mistake, a correction, or whatever, it is for all intents and purposes the truth as we know it.

 

As has been stated by others, this is a great example of how, with a few exceptions, genetic lineage doesn't have to mean anything with regard to a Chapter's rules and character. Previous examples have included the Mortifactors (not like the Ultramarines), Black Templars (not like the Imperial Fists), etc. This is just another good example of the principle. Ultimately, the Exorcists' genetic lineage doesn't really matter [to me]. As long as GW preserves the daemonic possession and all of the wonderful lore that was created for the Badab War, I'll be satisfied.

[Karhedron]

It reminds me a little of Captain Lexandro D'Arequbus from the old Inquisition War trilogy.

 

He as an Imperial Fist Captain who got cut off from the rest of the Chapter after getting lost in the webway. At one some Thousand Sons forced him to become possessed. He was subsequently exorcised by the Ordo Malleus Inquisitor Jaq Draco.

 

Probably unrelated as the above happened around 830M41 which would not leave much time to found a well established Chapter to follow in his footsteps but it is a nice nod to the old fluff.

[Charlo]

For me, I don't mind that they are IF sucessors at all. Having the Exorcists be weirdly from GK stock always felt a bit mary sue to me and I'm glad it was an uninformed in-universe opinion!

 

The only reason I do mind is that IF rules are build around heavy weapons and bolter-based chapter tactics and *sigh* buildings, meaning these guys will suffer rules-wise from being their kin.

 

The CTs are also incredibly niche, failing on a 1/2 is such a raw deal, though admittedly it can make some characters feel like badasses when fighting larger foes.