Grey Knights Gene-Seed Origin Revealed?

[Skywrath]

And the :cuss:ery continues... Gav Thorpe strikes again! TLDR: He might have just opened the floodgates in the assertion that Grey Knights are Imperial Fist successors. 

 

https://twitter.com/40KTheories/status/1366389917933309959 (see the Gav Thrope reply).

 

No joke, if Grey Knights are Imperial Fists successors, I'm legitimately going to stop playing them. This is beyond heretical, I'm actually physically outraged at even that notion.

Edited March 1, 2021 by Skywrath

[librisrouge]

Wow. Just wow. Please, don't do this GW. I hope they don't do with. It'd be foolish. Just foolish.

[Skywrath]

I won't lie I am going to be MIGHTILY pissed if that happens. Not even going to bother censoring that italic, because that's how strongly I feel about this.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Skywrath

[MegaVolt87]

Completely  . Everything that went on during HH is now completely ruined if this is true. Can we swap Gav for Matt Ward back if we must have one joker in the company? At least he would have kept the GK a mystery, he would never be so bold to say GK use UM gene seed in comparison. 

[jaxom]

Massive spoilers from Siege of Terra ahoy

 

Grey Knights are fixed Thousand Sons gene-seed. The Emperor fixed it up, used a soul shard of Magnus to make their first chapter master, and offered them as a bribe to Magnus to try to get him back on the loyalist side.

[Brother Tyler]

As with the origins of the Exorcists' gene-seed finally being revealed (and not in a way that corresponds to a previous unreliable in-universe statement), I'm not sure what [potentially] revealing the true origins of the Grey Knights' gene-seed (whoever it might be) does for the narrative.
 
Conversely, if GW decides that there needs to be some absolute origin provided for the Grey Knights' gene-seed and it has to be one of the Legions/Primarchs instead of the Emperor, I don't think that the VIIth Legion is a bad choice. At the very least, I can't think of any Legion that would be a better choice (and there are, not counting the IInd and XIIth Legions, eleven Legions that would definitely be worse choices). The possibility of the Thousand Sons' gene-seed has also come up, theoretically involving some McGuffin that prevents such a successor from suffering the mutations that afflicted the rest of that Legion later. I may be a bit biased in this (since I'm a big fan of the VIIth Legion), but Gav makes a valid point. Whether or not he's actually revealing a truth or just trolling is unknown. And if he is just trolling, the angst he has created has probably given everyone in on the joke a huge laugh.
 
Ultimately, though, whether or not GW decides to spoil the mystery, I don't see what the hullabaloo is about. If it turns out that the Grey Knights aren't snowflakes created from the gene-seed of the Emperor, so what? What is really ruined here? Does it change the awesomeness of the Grey Knights in any tangible way? Or does it just remove players' desires for "their" Chapter to somehow be better than other Chapters, their supposed descendance from the Emperor making them truly holier than their poor cousins who are only descended from the slacker Primarchs? If nothing else about the Grey Knights Chapter changes and all we get is a different "truth" about the Chapter's gene-seed, what is really lost?

Is Games Workshop really going to reveal this mystery? Or is this just an outgrowth of the revelation about the Exorcists' gene-seed? Is there some substance to all of this, or is it just a case of peoples' knees-a-jerking because the Internets said so?

[Skywrath]

Massive spoilers from Siege of Terra ahoy

 

Grey Knights are fixed Thousand Sons gene-seed. The Emperor fixed it up, used a soul shard of Magnus to make their first chapter master, and offered them as a bribe to Magnus to try to get him back on the loyalist side.

 

Seeing how the GW stories are that inconsistent (as much was I want to believe that), I'm just asking myself why would Gav potentially do *that*? Just an incompetent writer?

[Skywrath]

As with the origins of the Exorcists' gene-seed finally being revealed (and not in a way that corresponds to a previous unreliable in-universe statement), I'm not sure what [potentially] revealing the true origins of the Grey Knights' gene-seed (whoever it might be) does for the narrative.

 

Conversely, if GW decides that there needs to be some absolute origin provided for the Grey Knights' gene-seed and it has to be one of the Legions/Primarchs instead of the Emperor, I don't think that the VIIth Legion is a bad choice. At the very least, I can't think of any Legion that would be a better choice (and there are, not counting the IInd and XIIth Legions, eleven Legions that would definitely be worse choices). The possibility of the Thousand Sons' gene-seed has also come up, theoretically involving some McGuffin that prevents such a successor from suffering the mutations that afflicted the rest of that Legion later. I may be a bit biased in this (since I'm a big fan of the VIIth Legion), but Gav makes a valid point. Whether or not he's actually revealing a truth or just trolling is unknown. And if he is just trolling, the angst he has created has probably given everyone in on the joke a huge laugh.

 

Ultimately, though, whether or not GW decides to spoil the mystery, I don't see what the hullabaloo is about. If it turns out that the Grey Knights aren't snowflakes created from the gene-seed of the Emperor, so what? What is really ruined here? Does it change the awesomeness of the Grey Knights in any tangible way? Or does it just remove players' desires for "their" Chapter to somehow be better than other Chapters, their supposed descendance from the Emperor making them truly holier than their poor cousins who are only descended from the slacker Primarchs? If nothing else about the Grey Knights Chapter changes and all we get is a different "truth" about the Chapter's gene-seed, what is really lost?

 

Is Games Workshop really going to reveal this mystery? Or is this just an outgrowth of the revelation about the Exorcists' gene-seed? Is there some substance to all of this, or is it just a case of peoples' knees-a-jerking because the Internets said so?

 

Let's face it, most people playing Grey Knights like the idea of being snowflakes. There are people that are specifically drawn to that fact, myself included. As for the stock being potentially Imperial Fists, I cannot stress how heretical that is - as I said in the Exorcist thread there is nothing about a psyker and Imperial Fists that goes together. Oh sure, you have the most stable-geneseed after the Lion and Gulliman, but if you were to take a geneseed (and subsequently a chapter) renowed for it's psychic potency, why does it have to be from a gene lineage of one that has the least support for it, both mentally and physically? It just doesn't fit. Imagine taking an anchovy and ice-cream, that's how much this notion doesn't work. That being said, if this ends up being a troll, I will never forgive Gav for it. 

 

As for what is lost? It ties up to what I said previously - the fact that the snowflake status is gone, effectively erases everything of flavour from the GK. The mystery of them, the superiority to other marines, the psychic potential, all drawn to the single fact that our potential primarch is one that has no more complexity than a brick wall he builds. Oh yeah, and it completely undermines the HH novels before the grimdarkness, so there it that too, no biggie. Do you see my problem now?

Edited March 2, 2021 by Skywrath

[Slave to Darkness]

I dont see how a geneseed from a chapter not known for having tons of psykers is a big thing. The geneseed has nothing to do with someones psychic ability or not. 

[Skywrath]

I dont see how a geneseed from a chapter not known for having tons of psykers is a big thing. The geneseed has nothing to do with someones psychic ability or not. 

 

Missing the larger picture here. That was not my main point, my main point was how can a chapter as interesting as the Grey Knights be descended from someone as not interesting as Dorn. Subjective statement, I know, but that what makes me outraged, and that's what doesn't compute in my head. Then if I recall right he was anti-psyker as well, why would he sanction something that goes pretty much against everything he stood for. Nothing of the above makes sense, period. 

[Brother Tyler]

Assuming that this is true (and not just Internet hysteria)...

 

...who says that Rogal Dorn had any say in the matter?

[Gederas]

As with the origins of the Exorcists' gene-seed finally being revealed (and not in a way that corresponds to a previous unreliable in-universe statement), I'm not sure what [potentially] revealing the true origins of the Grey Knights' gene-seed (whoever it might be) does for the narrative.

 

Conversely, if GW decides that there needs to be some absolute origin provided for the Grey Knights' gene-seed and it has to be one of the Legions/Primarchs instead of the Emperor, I don't think that the VIIth Legion is a bad choice. At the very least, I can't think of any Legion that would be a better choice (and there are, not counting the IInd and XIIth Legions, eleven Legions that would definitely be worse choices). The possibility of the Thousand Sons' gene-seed has also come up, theoretically involving some McGuffin that prevents such a successor from suffering the mutations that afflicted the rest of that Legion later. I may be a bit biased in this (since I'm a big fan of the VIIth Legion), but Gav makes a valid point. Whether or not he's actually revealing a truth or just trolling is unknown. And if he is just trolling, the angst he has created has probably given everyone in on the joke a huge laugh.

 

Ultimately, though, whether or not GW decides to spoil the mystery, I don't see what the hullabaloo is about. If it turns out that the Grey Knights aren't snowflakes created from the gene-seed of the Emperor, so what? What is really ruined here? Does it change the awesomeness of the Grey Knights in any tangible way? Or does it just remove players' desires for "their" Chapter to somehow be better than other Chapters, their supposed descendance from the Emperor making them truly holier than their poor cousins who are only descended from the slacker Primarchs? If nothing else about the Grey Knights Chapter changes and all we get is a different "truth" about the Chapter's gene-seed, what is really lost?

 

Is Games Workshop really going to reveal this mystery? Or is this just an outgrowth of the revelation about the Exorcists' gene-seed? Is there some substance to all of this, or is it just a case of peoples' knees-a-jerking because the Internets said so?

I do think it's just Gav trolling the fanbase and having fun at the expense of those who'd get worked up over it.

 

So yeah. It's a knee-jerk reaction.

 

The big thing Grey Knights players seem to ignore is that the whole "descended from the Emperor's gene-seed" is that, the geneseed comes from the Primarchs. The Emperor DIDN'T have it. So they can't be descended from something that doesn't exist.

 

And besides, geneseed doesn't mean anything with a Chapter's identity. A Chapter's culture and Chapter Cult does. Sadly, only one GW author seems to acknowledge that (ADB... and whoever writes about the Mortifactors).

 

And regarding Gav Thorpe's writing: There's an entire series showing he's "lovely" at writing fluff for Chapters and totally doesn't make things that the fans think are terrible:

 

(yes, the above about Gav's writing ability and his not making people dislike his writing is sarcasm)

 

Completely  . Everything that went on during HH is now completely ruined if this is true. Can we swap Gav for Matt Ward back if we must have one joker in the company? At least he would have kept the GK a mystery, he would never be so bold to say GK use UM gene seed in comparison. 

Uhhh... I wouldn't put it past Matthew "Your Spiritual Liege" Ward to say Grey Knights are Ultramarines successors, what with his whole "All Space Marine chapters look to the Ultramarines as what they should be, and that Roboute Guilliman is their Spiritual Liege"

 

chapter as interesting as the Grey Knights be descended from someone as not interesting as Dorn.

Celestial Lions, Excoriators, Executioners, Iron Knights, Crimson Fists. Being a bland Primarch doesn't mean your kids can't be interesting. Also, the BLACK TEMPLARS are uninteresting and boring by that logic there?

 

Also, Dorn wasn't outright anti-psyker. He was "follow Emperor's words to a T". Emperor said "No more psykers" and Dorn said "done"

Edited March 2, 2021 by Gederas

[Skywrath]

 

chapter as interesting as the Grey Knights be descended from someone as not interesting as Dorn.

Celestial Lions, Excoriators, Executioners, Iron Knights, Crimson Fists. Being a bland Primarch doesn't mean your kids can't be interesting. Also, the BLACK TEMPLARS are uninteresting and boring by that logic there?

 

Also, Dorn wasn't outright anti-psyker. He was "follow Emperor's words to a T". Emperor said "No more psykers" and Dorn said "done"

 

And that blue bit doesn't strike you as boring? Because it sure does to me. I haven't read about the other chapters (a bit about the Black Templars), but if they are from Dorn's lineage, they would act pretty similarly to him - follow Emperor's words to a T. So yeah..

 

That being said, I do have to commend you on your excellent use of sarcasm on Gav Thorpe and the Dark Angel novels - accept my upvote, sir that was very well played and that elicited a laugh IRL. 

Edited March 2, 2021 by Skywrath

[Brother Tyler]

And another thing...

  

...if this is a credible change, the use of the VIIth Legion's gene-seed wouldn't have been a matter of being used for psyker potency. Rather, it would have been based on some perceived resistance to the corrupting influence of Chaos.

 

And another thing...

 

...if this is a credible change, the Exorcists could have been created from the gene-seed of the Grey Knights. As with other official examples of successors being the predecessors of later successors (e.g., Astral Claws, Novamarines), the Grey Knights could subsequently sire a successor Chapter. Both Chapters would still trace their lineage back to the original VIIth Legion and the Primarch Rogal Dorn.

 

And it's possible that this is just a clarification of previous lore. Perhaps the gene-seed of the VIIth Legion (and/or that of the XVth Legion) was infused with genetic material from the Emperor. In this way, the old lore is preserved, but it works within the construct of how the [fictitious] gene-seed supposedly works.

[Gederas]

Celestial Lions, Excoriators, Executioners, Iron Knights, Crimson Fists. Being a bland Primarch doesn't mean your kids can't be interesting. Also, the BLACK TEMPLARS are uninteresting and boring by that logic there?

 

Also, Dorn wasn't outright anti-psyker. He was "follow Emperor's words to a T". Emperor said "No more psykers" and Dorn said "done"

And that blue bit doesn't strike you as boring? Because it sure does to me. I haven't read about the other chapters (a bit about the Black Templars), but if they are from Dorn's lineage, they would act pretty similarly to him - follow Emperor's words to a T. So yeah..

 

That being said, I do have to commend you on your excellent use of sarcasm on Gav Thorpe and the Dark Angel novels - accept my upvote, sir that was very well played and that elicited a laugh IRL.

Not really, it mostly just shows that Dorn's the dutiful, loyal son. And regarding the other ones:

1. The Black Templars... Well, there's the Armageddon novels, and numerous other novels about them. That you can check the Black Templar subpfora to see how very much not boring they are :lol:
2. The Excoriators are actually the main chapter in the Legion of the Damned novel (also has a good showing of the Fire Lords, who seem to keep getting flip-flopped between "Unknown successor" and "Dorn's boys". They're a bunch of ritual-scarred pyromaniacs who in the Feast of Blades section of the novel are stated to drink promethium and file and add flint their teeth to breathe fire)
3. The Celestial Lions are showcased in the Armageddon novels, as well as AD-B's Spear of the Emperor and are surprisingly well-thought out (then again, what can you expect from the best writer in Black Library's stable?)
4. The Crimson Fists have several novels about them. Recently it's stated that Guilliman upon meeting Pedro Kantor (their Chapter Master) felt that Pedro epitomized what it meant to be a son of Dorn: Honourable, dutiful and a hero and protector of the Imperium's citizens
5. Iron Knights sadly don't have much written about them, but they're basically stated to be questing knights.
6. The Executioners... Well, they're a bunch of headhunting axemen. They're basically the "Barbarian" to the Black Templar's "Knight"

 

Also, yeah. The nicest thing I can say about Gav Thorpe's writing is: At least he didn't write War of Secrets :lol: Because unlike Grey Knights, who have a bunch of good writers for their novels, Dark Angels are stuck with Gav Thorpe and sometimes get someone who's actually good at writing (seriously, The Lion primarch novel is by and far the best DA novel written that I've read thus-far)

 

Also, Brother Tyler raises a good point: There's also something that was brought up in the Exorcists thread by Charybdis:

Wasn't there some mention of Rogal Dorn having some sort of anti warp ability? 

 

I think I read it in one of the recent 'Siege of Terror' books but I think Malcador basically tells Dorn to not bother trying to comprehend the Warp as his very being seem's to be immune/disrupt it. I think the Sigillite even states that Rogal was purposefully designed this way. 

 

If I'm remembering correctly then it makes a certain amount of sense that a Fist successor would train their inherent strengths to be extra Warp resistant. 

The psychic potential for the Grey Knights isn't related to their gene-seed, it's because they recruit exclusively from psykers (this is canon. Unsure if it's changed since I last checked). However, their seeming immunity to possession and ridiculous resistance to Warp shenanigans? Maybe it's a further refinement of Dorn's genetic legacy?

[MegaVolt87]

 

 

Completely  . Everything that went on during HH is now completely ruined if this is true. Can we swap Gav for Matt Ward back if we must have one joker in the company? At least he would have kept the GK a mystery, he would never be so bold to say GK use UM gene seed in comparison. 

Uhhh... I wouldn't put it past Matthew "Your Spiritual Liege" Ward to say Grey Knights are Ultramarines successors, what with his whole "All Space Marine chapters look to the Ultramarines as what they should be, and that Roboute Guilliman is their Spiritual Liege"

 

 

I don't like Ward either, but at least that man would have respected the GK origin lore better. Its more of a pick your poison deal here. Gav has been around GW a bit too long honestly, the man is basically Todd Howards "Sixteen times the detail" we don't need that for everything in 40k.  Just waiting for Gav and co to write out all unknown founding chapters at this point and use up all the space in the second founders so there is no room for DIY there either.   

[Brother Lunkhead]

Not mutually exclusive. You know that ‘Grey Knights’ geneseed had to come from someone else first, the original bearers of the progenoids - and which Legion was around more than any other when the GK were founded?

 

Is this the quote that everyone is hemorrhaging over? .... .... I don't actually see the name Imperial Fists in the quote. This could be interpreted in any number of ways. Which legion WAS around more than any other when the GK were founded?........ Around where?.... Around the galaxy?....... around Terra?..... Around the palace?....... Around the corner?

 

Now the Ultramarines  were the most numerous, and there could potentially be a surplus of gene-seed in the Emp's bio-labs (potentially or course with surplus gene-seed from all the other Legions). Certainly, the Imperial Fists were the most numerous on Terra, but by the time they were dying in droves at the hand of Horus and there were progenoids aplenty, the first batch of GK neophytes had already been shipped to Titan, which had already been hidden before the Seige of Terra began. If I had to choose a Space Marine legions, the obvious best choice would be the Ultramarines (they're BLUE you know)....... I know what you're thinking......"ARE YOU SERIOUS BROTHER LUNKHEAD??!!!..... well, no......they are blue though. I'm actually thinking of another legion. What legion at the time of the GK founding was made up of super soldiers that were bigger, faster and stronger than your average Astartes, just as the Grey Knights are reported to be? The Custodes, that's who. Physically, mentally superior, and arguably, incorruptible...... like Grey Knights. Okay, once again, I know what you're thinking as you sadly shake your head.....Lunk, Lunk, Lunk, you silly ol' bear, Custodes aren't Astartes. True enough, the creation process is very different. However, given the genetic engineering technology available to and by the Emperor at the time, it's not unreasonable to speculate that if genetic material was not taken from the Emperor himself to create the GK genetic template, then it might be taken and modified from his closest and greatest sons. Either way, with all due respect to Rogal Dorn and his mighty Imperial Fists, I think the Custodes would be a more likely source if I had to go this route.

 

Of course, my first choice is to leave it be, and maintain the mystery, just as I would have preferred the Exorcist origins to remain. But, just because it's revealed that the Exorcists were created from IF gene stock doesn't necessarily correlate to GK's having the same source. This, as others have pointed out could just be Gav having a little fun, knowing that this is where people would go..... Gav, you bad boy.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Brother Lunkhead

[Silas7]

My head canon says GK seed came from one of the lost primarchs :/

[Gnomeo]

Lots of very interesting points. For me the issue isn't that grey knights could be descended from Dorn. The issue is the removal of mystery by GW. Which has been an on going thing since the big blue smurf woke up. I feel GW are trying hard to progress the 40k story line but in so doing detract from some of the best bits of the lore. The unknown!!!

 

I don't know about others but for me theorising different things about the lore because its unknown is half the fun. Take cypher if we knew his goal he actually becomes less interesting.

[Lord Raven 19]

The old GK lore says created from gene seed from the emperor right? Maybe we all read that wrong, could that mean gene seed given to them by the emperor, not necessarily his genetic material directly (as the genetics of the primarchs was from the emperor, right, so all gene seed is the emperor's, if you think of it that way). We want things left open to interpretation, yes, so lets not assume our interpretation is the only one or the right one.

[Skywrath]

Not mutually exclusive. You know that ‘Grey Knights’ geneseed had to come from someone else first, the original bearers of the progenoids - and which Legion was around more than any other when the GK were founded?

 

Is this the quote that everyone is hemorrhaging over? .... .... I don't actually see the name Imperial Fists in the quote. This could be interpreted in any number of ways. Which legion WAS around more than any other when the GK were founded?........ Around where?.... Around the galaxy?....... around Terra?..... Around the palace?....... Around the corner?

 

Now the Ultramarines  were the most numerous, and there could potentially be a surplus of gene-seed in the Emp's bio-labs (potentially or course with surplus gene-seed from all the other Legions). Certainly, the Imperial Fists were the most numerous on Terra, but by the time they were dying in droves at the hand of Horus and there were progenoids aplenty, the first batch of GK neophytes had already been shipped to Titan, which had already been hidden before the Seige of Terra began. If I had to choose a Space Marine legions, the obvious best choice would be the Ultramarines (they're BLUE you know)....... I know what you're thinking......"ARE YOU SERIOUS BROTHER LUNKHEAD??!!!..... well, no......they are blue though. I'm actually thinking of another legion. What legion at the time of the GK founding was made up of super soldiers that were bigger, faster and stronger than your average Astartes, just as the Grey Knights are reported to be? The Custodes, that's who. Physically, mentally superior, and arguably, incorruptible...... like Grey Knights. Okay, once again, I know what you're thinking as you sadly shake your head.....Lunk, Lunk, Lunk, you silly ol' bear, Custodes aren't Astartes. True enough, the creation process is very different. However, given the genetic engineering technology available to and by the Emperor at the time, it's not unreasonable to speculate that if genetic material was not taken from the Emperor himself to create the GK genetic template, then it might be taken and modified from his closest and greatest sons. Either way, with all due respect to Rogal Dorn and his mighty Imperial Fists, I think the Custodes would be a more likely source if I had to go this route.

 

Of course, my first choice is to leave it be, and maintain the mystery, just as I would have preferred the Exorcist origins to remain. But, just because it's revealed that the Exorcists were created from IF gene stock doesn't necessarily correlate to GK's having the same source. This, as others have pointed out could just be Gav having a little fun, knowing that this is were people would go..... Gav, you bad boy.

 

I could get behind that theory for sure. However, what-if our geneseed was chimeric, from the new book Fury of Magnus:

 

As someone mentioned our geneseed could be purified Thousand Sons. But what if, to purify it, the emperor had to infuse some of his own genome to stabilise it, making it chimeric? Like the epitome of order stabilising the epitome of chaos? Therefore making our geneseed still technically from the Emperor himself.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Skywrath

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

.... However, what-if our geneseed was chimeric, from the new book Fury of Magnus:

As someone mentioned our geneseed could be purified Thousand Sons. But what if, to purify it, the emperor had to infuse some of his own genome to stabilise it, making it chimeric? Like the epitome of order stabilising the epitome of chaos? Therefore making our geneseed still technically from the Emperor himself.

This is a very intriguing idea, and it definitely has merit  The problem I have though is the level of instability in the Thousand Sons gene-seed that makes them so highly susceptible to warp mutation. The TS gene flaw makes the Blood Angels Red Thirst look like a minor inconvenience. Couple this with the time frame of the creation of the Grey Knights, I don't see how the Emperor and his gene squad would have the time to correct such a complicated flaw. I think they they would opt for a more stable source to receive the Emperor's goodness.

 

On the other hand, if the TS gene-seed had some specially specialness that made it ideal to be infused with the Emp's special sauce, and the Emperor and his gene team were able to correct their gene flaw, that would make the Thousand Sons' downfall that much more tragic. Definitely, something to consider

Edited March 3, 2021 by Brother Lunkhead

[Skywrath]

 

 

.... However, what-if our geneseed was chimeric, from the new book Fury of Magnus:

As someone mentioned our geneseed could be purified Thousand Sons. But what if, to purify it, the emperor had to infuse some of his own genome to stabilise it, making it chimeric? Like the epitome of order stabilising the epitome of chaos? Therefore making our geneseed still technically from the Emperor himself.

This is a very intriguing idea, and it definitely has merit  The problem I have though is the level of instability in the Thousand Sons gene-seed that makes them so highly susceptible to warp mutation. The TS gene flaw makes the Blood Angels Red Thirst look like a minor inconvenience. Couple this with the time frame of the creation of the Grey Knights, I don't see how the Emperor and his gene squad would have the time to correct such a complicated flaw. I think they they would opt for a more stable source to receive the Emperor's goodness.

 

On the other hand, if the TS gene-seed had some specially specialness that made it ideal to be infused with the Emp's special sauce, and the Emperor and his gene team were able to correct their gene flaw, that would make the Thousand Sons' downfall that much more tragic. Definitely, something to consider

 

 

The answer is much more simple - it was implied in the Fury of Magnus book that:

 

He started fixing the geneseed even before the TS fell to chaos. So timeline wise, it fits perfectly (a rarity because of the consistency of the lore, amiright?) As for fixing the stock, it always could be attributed to ratio's - was the stock more Magnus or the stock more of the Emperor's own? Then there is the potency to consider. As far as I am concerned the Emperor's own genome is on another galaxy compared to a primarch's. Meaning that it essentially "overwrites" Magnus'. However, point taken that makes the downfall that much more tragic. 

[Xenith]

 

This is a very intriguing idea, and it definitely has merit  The problem I have though is the level of instability in the Thousand Sons gene-seed that makes them so highly susceptible to warp mutation. The TS gene flaw makes the Blood Angels Red Thirst look like a minor inconvenience. Couple this with the time frame of the creation of the Grey Knights, I don't see how the Emperor and his gene squad would have the time to correct such a complicated flaw. I think they they would opt for a more stable source to receive the Emperor's goodness.

 

On the other hand, if the TS gene-seed had some specially specialness that made it ideal to be infused with the Emp's special sauce, and the Emperor and his gene team were able to correct their gene flaw, that would make the Thousand Sons' downfall that much more tragic. Definitely, something to consider

 

 

Who's to say that grey knights don't occasionally go mad and undergo the Flesh change? I mean, they tend to fight chaos, right, one of whose traits is to turn people into spawn, so a random knight turning into a spawn in battle would be very easily attributed to the Great Enemy.

 

Also, we see that  the TS only undergo Flesh Change in times of extreme stress and loss of control - and can ward off the change by chanting the enumerations, meditating, retaining focus...all of which are things that Grey Knights do. Their minds are steel traps and their strength of will and focus total, meaning they have significant advantages over heresy era TS in the psychic control stakes, thats before you even get to the hypno-indoctrination and mental conditioning. 

 

Super interesting discussion. I hate the way things are 'revealed'. From his tone, I think that Gav is just stoking the embers, rather than admitting anything outright. ADB even railed against the community seeing things like this in black and white, when an author makes a half-comment out of hand. 

[MECHFACE]

Like everything in 40k, with a history spanning over 10,000 years, it is very characterful that what is and what isn't truth is very much open to speculation and the interpretation of many conflicting sources of information (and the fact it's made up by a bunch of blokes starting of in the 80's). 

 

My interpretation of what's written presently in the HH and WH40k materials is the following (WARNING A LOT OF SPOILER CONTENT IS LISTS HERE!!!!).

 

Things to Bare in Mind List:



- up to 50% of what the Emperor says (or is reported to say) are often mistruths for the benefit of Mankind and Himself (rational).

- up to 50% of what the ruinous powers say are deliberate lies for the benefit of Chaos and the desires of the individual who is communicating with them in that instant (irrational).

- Malcador seems incapable of actually saying anything with less than 50% of lies in it.

- that the record keeping of the Administratum is both excellent (quantity) and terrible (quality and version control), and constantly strains under the weight of its own colossal bureaucracy.

- that the records of the Imperium are constantly being messed around with in the War of Quills by the three competing minor Inquisitional factions of the Ordo Scriptorum (organise the truth!), Ordo Scriptus (find the truth!) and the Ordo Redactus (hide the truth!).

- that the Eldar (and other xenos in the Cabal) also mess around with human history and fate all the time by repeatedly attempting to influence numerous Primarchs, Perpetuals and Astartes to basically wipe-out the Imperium (though not necessarily humanity as a species).



List of Events documented in the HH and 40K books (written by multiple authors):



- that the Emperor and Malcador have modelled (via psychic means) the different potential paths of fate and the outcomes of many different actions they take (Doctor Strange style but with a regicide board).

- that potentially (again coming from cheery faced Malcador) that a Heresy Event was always part of the long-game from the start, as a way of neutralizing/culling the accumulated power base of the legions at the end of the crusade. This draws parallels to the similar machinations used to neutralise the Thunder Warriors and the end of the wars of unity.

- the Emperor has used his own genetic make-up before when creating genetically altered supermen (Custodes, Primarchs).

- It is unknown if the Emperor used his own genetic material to create the Thunder Warriors, and are rather products of his genius (or the genius of his Biotechnical Division and various other Perpetuals).

- that the initial grey knights recruits come from a range of founding legions both traitor (TS, LW) and loyalist (UM, BA, DA, SW, RG) and presently one member (Khyron) of an unknown legion.

- that even while stuck on the Golden Throne during the Siege of Terra the emperor is still issuing commands and options for the longer war to come.

- Revuel Arvida (TS) is fused with the Shard of Magnus on earth to create a purified Hybrid being (both Primarch and Astartes) called Ianius (and later Janus) and is the first Grandmaster.

- Garro discovers even before the Siege of Terra at the on set of the Horus Heresy that Malcador is already building an entire new legion in secret and that it's already got a whole legions worth of arms and wargear almost ready to use.

- When Magnus speaks with the Emperor during the siege he tells him that he's building a brand new type of Psycher legion ready to replace the TS's (with fixed Gene-Seed) that he offers Magnus to lead and stay loyal in exchange for. However, Magnus needs to sacrifice the existing TS legion first.

 

So in fact everything that's being said in this discussion is potentially correct and false at the same time! Somewhat of a Schrodinger's cat really.   

Edited March 3, 2021 by MECHFACE