Grey Knights Gene-Seed Origin Revealed?

[Brother Lunkhead]

  On 3/3/2021 at 8:45 AM, Xenith said:

 

Who's to say that grey knights don't occasionally go mad and undergo the Flesh change? I mean, they tend to fight chaos, right, one of whose traits is to turn people into spawn, so a random knight turning into a spawn in battle would be very easily attributed to the Great Enemy.

 

Also, we see that  the TS only undergo Flesh Change in times of extreme stress and loss of control - and can ward off the change by chanting the enumerations, meditating, retaining focus...all of which are things that Grey Knights do. Their minds are steel traps and their strength of will and focus total, meaning they have significant advantages over heresy era TS in the psychic control stakes, thats before you even get to the hypno-indoctrination and mental conditioning. 

 

Super interesting discussion. I hate the way things are 'revealed'. From his tone, I think that Gav is just stoking the embers, rather than admitting anything outright. ADB even railed against the community seeing things like this in black and white, when an author makes a half-comment out of hand. 

 

 

  On 3/3/2021 at 8:50 AM, Reskin said:

You are sowing heresy and deceit with those speculations.

Yup, I agree Brother Reskin That definitely smacks of heresy.

 

There's a rumor that Brother Xenith may be an agent of the Alpha Legion sent to sew misinformation and dissent..... better keep an eye on him

Edited March 3, 2021 by Brother Lunkhead

[Skywrath]

  On 3/3/2021 at 12:59 PM, Brother Lunkhead said:

 

  On 3/3/2021 at 8:45 AM, Xenith said:

 

Who's to say that grey knights don't occasionally go mad and undergo the Flesh change? I mean, they tend to fight chaos, right, one of whose traits is to turn people into spawn, so a random knight turning into a spawn in battle would be very easily attributed to the Great Enemy.

 

Also, we see that  the TS only undergo Flesh Change in times of extreme stress and loss of control - and can ward off the change by chanting the enumerations, meditating, retaining focus...all of which are things that Grey Knights do. Their minds are steel traps and their strength of will and focus total, meaning they have significant advantages over heresy era TS in the psychic control stakes, thats before you even get to the hypno-indoctrination and mental conditioning. 

 

Super interesting discussion. I hate the way things are 'revealed'. From his tone, I think that Gav is just stoking the embers, rather than admitting anything outright. ADB even railed against the community seeing things like this in black and white, when an author makes a half-comment out of hand. 

 

 

  On 3/3/2021 at 8:50 AM, Reskin said:

You are sowing heresy and deceit with those speculations.

Yup, I agree Brother Reskin That definitely smacks of heresy.

 

There's a rumor that Brother Xenith may be an agent of the Alpha Legion sent to sew misinformation and dissent..... better keep an eye on him

 

*puts on the best impersonation of Saruman's voice* Do you require assistance? *powers up Nemesis Force Halberd* 

 

Err, Lunkhead, check my previous response, if you have read Fury of Magnus, if not, never mind. 

[Skywrath]

Read your lore, Reskin. The ultramarine psyker was Rubio. The Thousand Sons psyker was Janus AKA Reviel Arvida. I'm sure everyone here knows how a Space Marine is created, seeing how we were discussing that before your...intervention and playing a faction that still uses Astartes methods to create them. Every GM got his original gene-seed ripped out and replaced with the geneseed of the Emperor, starting with Nathaniel Garro. There was absolutely no need for a refresh, unless you were planning on using that as a point to propose a novel idea? 

Edited March 3, 2021 by Skywrath

[Brother Tyler]

  On 3/3/2021 at 4:32 PM, Reskin said:

... people are somehow sowing seeds that our geneseed is TS, that is not the case, nor has it ever been mentioned in GK themed products...

  On 3/2/2021 at 2:19 AM, jaxom said:

Massive spoilers from Siege of Terra ahoy

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Grey Knights are fixed Thousand Sons gene-seed. The Emperor fixed it up, used a soul shard of Magnus to make their first chapter master, and offered them as a bribe to Magnus to try to get him back on the loyalist side.

So one member says the Grey Knights aren't created from the gene-seed of the Thousand Sons (presumably because the codex says that they are created from the gene-seed of the Emperor). Meanwhile, another member says that the Grey Knights are created from the gene-seed of the Thousand Sons, citing (but not quoting) official lore.

 

Does anyone have the book in question? And can they quote the necessary passages to either support or debunk the allegation that the Grey Knights carry the gene-seed of Magnus the Red?

[TPS]

  On 3/3/2021 at 4:46 PM, Brother Tyler said:

 

  On 3/3/2021 at 4:32 PM, Reskin said:

... people are somehow sowing seeds that our geneseed is TS, that is not the case, nor has it ever been mentioned in GK themed products...

  On 3/2/2021 at 2:19 AM, jaxom said:

Massive spoilers from Siege of Terra ahoy

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Grey Knights are fixed Thousand Sons gene-seed. The Emperor fixed it up, used a soul shard of Magnus to make their first chapter master, and offered them as a bribe to Magnus to try to get him back on the loyalist side.

So one member says the Grey Knights aren't created from the gene-seed of the Thousand Sons (presumably because the codex says that they are created from the gene-seed of the Emperor). Meanwhile, another member says that the Grey Knights are created from the gene-seed of the Thousand Sons, citing (but not quoting) official lore.

 

Does anyone have the book in question? And can they quote the necessary passages to either support or debunk the allegation that the Grey Knights carry the gene-seed of Magnus the Red?

 

Im sort of interested in the discussion, but would you mind doing so with a good helping of spoiler tags? I haven't gotten to Terra in the HH novels yet and would enjoy to have some secrets left to discover myself.

Thanks!

[jaxom]

I do and will post it when I get home.

[librisrouge]

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I'm not sure I agree with the premise that the Grey Knights are fixed Thousand Sons gene seed. The Emperor tells Magnus that he is making him a new legion and very specifically describes the Grey Knights but he never says, that I recall, that the legion was crafted specifically from Magnus' genetic template. It seems like it'd be entirely possible that he'd make the chapter based upon himself (or something else) and then gift it to Magnus. I'm honestly of the opinion that Magnus' geneseed is simply too corrupt to be fixed at all.

[MECHFACE]

From Fury of Magnus - as I said before basically the grey knights are a Schrödinger's Cat 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Chapter 14 [excerpts].
“A thousand lives might be worth paying for what you and I could achieve”.
“You and I?” said Magnus.
“Yes” said his father, and the Promise of that word was the first light of dawn.
“I don’t understand” said Magnus
“I wanted you here before me so that there would be no mistakes. No misunderstandings. And no way for the ruinous powers set against me to twist my words or intent. I wanted you here before me so you could look me in the eye and understand the truth of what I offer.”
Magnus’s breath caught in his throat, and magnus met his terrible gaze. Feeling the inhuman power that lay in his father’s heart. Power that could strip a man down to atoms in a heartbeat, and breath him a new with an exhalation. That power had endured for uncounted millennia, growing with every passing century, honing its edge for the age it was needed.
“and what is it you offer?”
“the chance to stand by my side again” said his father. “forgiveness”.
Chapter 15 [excerpts].
“this future, or at least a version of it can come to pass”
“it is too late for that!”
His father’s amusement washed over him.
“Do you think I would show you this if it weren’t so?”
Magnus opened his eye, feeling the familiar weight of spirit entering his body. Their shared vision space experienced time on a cosmic scale but an instant had only passed in the cavern beneath the sanctum imperialis.
“How?” asked magnus. “How could such a future come to pass?”
“It is a simple thing” said the emperor, and magnus could see the strain now, a measure of how much effort it was taking to communicate so directly.
“Swear your oath of fealty to me once again, take your rightful place at my side and our combined power will drive the betrayers from terra, we will destroy them and usher in a new era of crusade.”
“I thought you always hated that word”
“I did” admitted his father “but that was then. Our first endeavour carried forward on hope. A venture to reforge a galactic culture that old night put asunder, to locate and rebuild our lost sons and daughters. This will be a war of vengeance and cleansing, a scouring of worlds and a ruthless doom to all our enemies”
“and you want me to be part of this?”
“I do my son” said the emperor, and his eyes shone even brighter.
“I need you by my side because your soul is still your own and ruled by your better nature”
“there’s a price isn’t there?”
“there is” agreed the emperor “and it is a heavy price but necessary one”.
“Your mind and body are still your own but the warriors of your legion are damned. In truth they were damned by the first signs of the flesh change became manifest. There bodies carry the seed of their own destruction, and nor can my gene-craft nor that of the Selenar make it not. You can come back to me but your legion cannot.”
“but I will build you a new legion, a mighty host of warriors greater than any now living. Plans are already in motion to bring about their inception. Soon you will command warriors the likes of which the galaxy has never seen, whose flesh will be flawless, fists like steel and hearts armoured in adamantium.”
“you would give me a new legion?”
“I would, and they will be the pride of the new imperium”
Magnus said nothing, picturing this fantastical new future. One in which his legion sons were free of corruption. Free of the fear that dogged their every step from the shadow within them all that threatened to consume them. He at his fathers’ side, leading these warriors on a new crusade to reconquer the stars. This time they would not repeat the mistakes of the past. This time they would reshape the galaxy as it was meant to be. It was all he ever wanted, and yet.
“And how could I look these new legionaries in the face, without seeing the sacrificed faces of my current sons. What kind of father would that make me?”
“It is the only way magnus. In truth your sons are already dead. In a few years rampant mutations will overtake the strongest of them. One way or another they will die.”

Edited March 4, 2021 by MECHFACE

[jaxom]

Thank you, MECHFACE, I was specifically thinking of this part (and then followed by my interpretation).

 

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  Quote

 

 

“Your mind and body are still your own but the warriors of your legion are damned. In truth they were damned by the first signs of the flesh change became manifest. There bodies carry the seed of their own destruction, and nor can my gene-craft nor that of the Selenar make it not. You can come back to me but your legion cannot.”
“but I will build you a new legion, a mighty host of warriors greater than any now living. Plans are already in motion to bring about their inception. Soon you will command warriors the likes of which the galaxy has never seen, whose flesh will be flawless, fists like steel and hearts armoured in adamantium.”

The Emperor had a narrow window (according to his foresight) to launch his fleets and worked with what he had at the time. The Space Marine legions were an ongoing project and we see this with the development of new equipment over time. Even if the HH hadn't happened, the Thousand Sons were a doomed legion. A replacement or a major overhaul would have been needed. The Emperor is anathema to Chaos and he used a small portion of his genetics as part of the Primarch Project, but there's never been any indication that the Emperor himself has the various organs they - and by extension the Astartes - do. Tweaking an existing Primarch's gene-code/gene-seed to up the anathema content makes sense. Similarly, the first GK Grand Masters were sent off to Titan where the gene-seed and equipment were ready. I don't think even Malcador and the Emperor could get all of that ready just since the inception of Horus's rebellion and the rise of Chaos. The Fury of Magnus text makes me think it was part of an ongoing plan to slowly alter the legions to what the Emperor needed long term instead of letting them stay in the "we have go and this is what we have," mold.

 

[librisrouge]

  Reveal hidden contents

“Your mind and body are still your own but the warriors of your legion are damned. In truth they were damned by the first signs of the flesh change became manifest. There bodies carry the seed of their own destruction, and nor can my gene-craft nor that of the Selenar make it not. You can come back to me but your legion cannot.”
“but I will build you a new legion, a mighty host of warriors greater than any now living. Plans are already in motion to bring about their inception. Soon you will command warriors the likes of which the galaxy has never seen, whose flesh will be flawless, fists like steel and hearts armoured in adamantium.”
“you would give me a new legion?”
“I would, and they will be the pride of the new imperium”
Magnus said nothing, picturing this fantastical new future. One in which his legion sons were free of corruption. Free of the fear that dogged their every step from the shadow within them all that threatened to consume them. He at his fathers’ side, leading these warriors on a new crusade to reconquer the stars. This time they would not repeat the mistakes of the past. This time they would reshape the galaxy as it was meant to be. It was all he ever wanted, and yet.

 

 

The part doesn't mean that the 1kSons are Sons of Magnus, imo. Heck, if anything it indicates that they are not. The Emperor claims that he cannot fix Magnus' geneseed but that he'll replace the 1kSons with the Grey Knights. Magnus is the one that pictures a future where his legion is still his sons. The Emperor never claims that this new legion would actually be Magnus' sons. Just that Magnus would command them. That feels like an important part to leave out, considering the previous part about not being able to fix the 1kSons.

[Brother Tyler]

From that quote, it's obvious that the Grey Knights aren't created from the gene-seed of Magnus the Red. The "new legion" (presumably the Grey Knights) would be led by Magnus the Red, but wouldn't be of Magnus the Red.

 

This leaves us with the current situation. According to the current lore, the 8th edition Codex: Grey Knights tells us that...

 

"Where the other Space Marine Chapters were built upon existing stock, the Grey Knights were born of a new gene-seed, one without the flaws of those that had gone before, and which carried the gift of the Emperor's own flesh and soul."

 

The Emperor, of course, didn't have gene-seed. So the new gene-seed couldn't have been wholly created from the Emperor. Each Legion had its own gene-seed, based on the genetic material of its Primarch. At the core of each, though, was the basic gene-seed, the result of the Emperor's and his gene-wrights' experiments in genetic engineering, each eventually leading to three different branches - the Legiones Custodes, the Legiones Cataegis (Thunder Warriors), and the Legiones Astartes - each of those being a distinct and, I assume, incompatible outcome (i.e., the processes and materials used to make each cannot be mixed and matched). The Grey Knights, obviously, are part of the Legiones Astartes branch.

 

The first part of the quote implies that the gene-seed used for the Grey Knights wasn't that of an existing Legion, modified or not. The important part to remember here is that the Primarchs didn't have true gene-seed either. The genetic material of each Primarch was the key to realizing the full potential of his (or their in the case of the XXth Legion) Legion's gene-seed. Presumably, there was a baseline gene-seed to which was added the genetic material of the Primarch, which further modified the gene-seed. While the Primarchs remained lost, their Legion's gene-seed, though still distinct from that of other Legions, was of slightly lower potency. Once a Legion's Primarch was found, his genetic material could be incorporated into the transformation process to fully realize what the Legiones Astartes of his gene-line were capable of. What I infer from the cited passage is that the "new gene-seed" was either the baseline gene-seed of the Legiones Astartes, or a slightly improved version thereof (improved between the time that the Legiones Astartes were first created and the flaw in the XVth Legion resulted in the flesh mutation). Instead of the genetic material of one of the Primarchs, it was that of the Emperor that was added to trigger the potential within the gene-seed, resulting in the Grey Knights.

 

One could argue that one of the unblemished Legions was chosen as a source for the Grey Knights gene-seed, with the genetic material of the Emperor added to change that gene-seed further and to make it distinct from that of the Legion, but that would appear to be a retcon of what we see in the codex. It could still be the case, in which case taking this unblemished gene-seed (the VIIth Legion, as implied by Gav Thorpe in his Twitter reply) and then adding the genetic material of the Emperor makes it "new."

 

The Legiones Custodes are the other branch of genetic experimentation that is thought to have the gene-seed of the Emperor. The problem with this theory, though, is that the process for creating one of the Legiones Custodes is markedly different from that of creating the Legiones Astartes, and the Grey Knights have always been explicitly described as being among the Adeptus Astartes, the re-formed Legiones Astartes. They have always been presented as "Space Marines" and never as "Custodes" (starting with their first appearance back during 1st edition). The only thing the two organizations share in common is that they are both thought to have the genetic material of the Emperor in their gene-seed. The potential reconciliation to this is as I described above - the Emperor's genetic material was added to either baseline Legiones Astartes gene-seed or the gene-seed of one of the uncorrupted Legions to create the new gene-seed stock from which the Grey Knights would be created.

 

So it's possible for Grey Knights to have been created from the gene-seed of the Imperial Fists, which is what we are all inferring from Gav Thorpe's Twitter reply, while still having been created from the Emperor. This wouldn't be so much of a "retcon" as it would be an expansion of the information we've been provided previously (which was a retcon that appeared in 3rd edition, not existing in either the 1st or 2nd edition lore as far as I recall - I may be incorrect in this).

 

Either that or Gav Thorpe is having a good laugh at our expense (and to that I would say, "well played" ).

 

Of course, all of the opinionating and bloviation above is just me trying to reconcile the bits of lore. GW can always change things as they will, without consideration for what has come before (*cough* Mentors! *cough*). Should they decide to do that, everything is out the window.

[Brother Lunkhead]

  On 3/3/2021 at 9:02 PM, MECHFACE said:

From Wrath of Magnus - as I said before basically the grey knights are a Schrödinger's Cat 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Chapter 14 [excerpts].

“A thousand lives might be worth paying for what you and I could achieve”.

“You and I?” said Magnus.

“Yes” said his father, and the Promise of that word was the first light of dawn.

“I don’t understand” said Magnus

“I wanted you here before me so that there would be no mistakes. No misunderstandings. And no way for the ruinous powers set against me to twist my words or intent. I wanted you here before me so you could look me in the eye and understand the truth of what I offer.”

Magnus’s breath caught in his throat, and magnus met his terrible gaze. Feeling the inhuman power that lay in his father’s heart. Power that could strip a man down to atoms in a heartbeat, and breath him a new with an exhalation. That power had endured for uncounted millennia, growing with every passing century, honing its edge for the age it was needed.

“and what is it you offer?”

“the chance to stand by my side again” said his father. “forgiveness”.

Chapter 15 [excerpts].

“this future, or at least a version of it can come to pass”

“it is too late for that!”

His father’s amusement washed over him.

“Do you think I would show you this if it weren’t so?”

Magnus opened his eye, feeling the familiar weight of spirit entering his body. Their shared vision space experienced time on a cosmic scale but an instant had only passed in the cavern beneath the sanctum imperialis.

“How?” asked magnus. “How could such a future come to pass?”

“It is a simple thing” said the emperor, and magnus could see the strain now, a measure of how much effort it was taking to communicate so directly.

“Swear your oath of fealty to me once again, take your rightful place at my side and our combined power will drive the betrayers from terra, we will destroy them and usher in a new era of crusade.”

“I thought you always hated that word”

“I did” admitted his father “but that was then. Our first endeavour carried forward on hope. A venture to reforge a galactic culture that old night put asunder, to locate and rebuild our lost sons and daughters. This will be a war of vengeance and cleansing, a scouring of worlds and a ruthless doom to all our enemies”

“and you want me to be part of this?”

“I do my son” said the emperor, and his eyes shone even brighter.

“I need you by my side because your soul is still your own and ruled by your better nature”

“there’s a price isn’t there?”

“there is” agreed the emperor “and it is a heavy price but necessary one”.

“Your mind and body are still your own but the warriors of your legion are damned. In truth they were damned by the first signs of the flesh change became manifest. There bodies carry the seed of their own destruction, and nor can my gene-craft nor that of the Selenar make it not. You can come back to me but your legion cannot.”

“but I will build you a new legion, a mighty host of warriors greater than any now living. Plans are already in motion to bring about their inception. Soon you will command warriors the likes of which the galaxy has never seen, whose flesh will be flawless, fists like steel and hearts armoured in adamantium.”

“you would give me a new legion?”

“I would, and they will be the pride of the new imperium”

Magnus said nothing, picturing this fantastical new future. One in which his legion sons were free of corruption. Free of the fear that dogged their every step from the shadow within them all that threatened to consume them. He at his fathers’ side, leading these warriors on a new crusade to reconquer the stars. This time they would not repeat the mistakes of the past. This time they would reshape the galaxy as it was meant to be. It was all he ever wanted, and yet.

“And how could I look these new legionaries in the face, without seeing the sacrificed faces of my current sons. What kind of father would that make me?”

“It is the only way magnus. In truth your sons are already dead. In a few years rampant mutations will overtake the strongest of them. One way or another they will die.”

Thanks for that MECHFACE I think that puts the Thousand Sons connection in perspective, and I think by doing so, demonstrates the value of direct quotes. Then there's this......

 

  On 3/3/2021 at 10:52 PM, Brother Tyler said:

This leaves us with the current situation. According to the current lore, the 8th edition Codex: Grey Knights tells us that...

 

"Where the other Space Marine Chapters were built upon existing stock, the Grey Knights were born of a new gene-seed, one without the flaws of those that had gone before, and which carried the gift of the Emperor's own flesh and soul."

 

The Emperor, of course, didn't have gene-seed. So the new gene-seed couldn't have been wholly created from the Emperor. Each Legion had its own gene-seed, based on the genetic material of its Primarch. At the core of each, though, was the basic gene-seed, the result of the Emperor's and his gene-wrights' experiments in genetic engineering, each eventually leading to three different branches - the Legiones Custodes, the Legiones Cataegis (Thunder Warriors), and the Legiones Astartes - each of those being a distinct and, I assume, incompatible outcome (i.e., the processes and materials used to make each cannot be mixed and matched). The Grey Knights, obviously, are part of the Legiones Astartes branch.

 

The first part of the quote implies that the gene-seed used for the Grey Knights wasn't that of an existing Legion, modified or not. ............ What I infer from the cited passage is that the "new gene-seed" was either the baseline gene-seed of the Legiones Astartes, or a slightly improved version thereof (improved between the time that the Legiones Astartes were first created and the flaw in the XVth Legion resulted in the flesh mutation). Instead of the genetic material of one of the Primarchs, it was that of the Emperor that was added to trigger the potential within the gene-seed, resulting in the Grey Knights........

 

The Legiones Custodes are the other branch of genetic experimentation that is thought to have the gene-seed of the Emperor. The problem with this theory, though, is that the process for creating one of the Legiones Custodes is markedly different from that of creating the Legiones Astartes, and the Grey Knights have always been explicitly described as being among the Adeptus Astartes, the re-formed Legiones Astartes. They have always been presented as "Space Marines" and never as "Custodes" (starting with their first appearance back during 1st edition). The only thing the two organizations share in common is that they are both thought to have the genetic material of the Emperor in their gene-seed. The potential reconciliation to this is as I described above - the Emperor's genetic material was added to either baseline Legiones Astartes gene-seed or the gene-seed of one of the uncorrupted Legions to create the new gene-seed stock from which the Grey Knights would be created.

 

So it's possible for Grey Knights to have been created from the gene-seed of the Imperial Fists, which is what we are all inferring from Gav Thorpe's Twitter reply, while still having been created from the Emperor. This wouldn't be so much of a "retcon" as it would be an expansion of the information we've been provided previously (which was a retcon that appeared in 3rd edition, not existing in either the 1st or 2nd edition lore as far as I recall - I may be incorrect in this).

 

Either that or Gav Thorpe is having a good laugh at our expense (and to that I would say, "well played" )......

Apologies to Brother Tyler for the edit.....just saving some space. I did acknowledge the difference in Custodes and Astartes creation, but I still think Custodes genetic material use in creation of a new Astartes rewrought by the Emperor's gene-smiths is a viable idea. However, I think Brother Tyler makes the most compelling argument with the baseline Astartes gene-seed with added genetic material from the Emperor as the basic genetic platform for the Grey Knights' genesis. I somehow left this piece of lore in the cobweb laden cavernous gaps of my memory. Given this, and what the GK lore has been telling us for a very long time, the idea that the GK's gene-seed is derived from the IF or any other Legion Astartes is weak...... but ultimately this is all GW's IP and they can do what they want..... let's hope they don't muck it up

 

Putting on my Mod hat..........

 

This has been an interesting thread and it has generated some stimulating discussion, but it has generated a little heat here and there. Remember to keep it friendly. Everyone's thoughts and ideas should be welcomed whether you agree with them or not. Be prepared to defend your ideas, so do your homework. Disagreement is fine, but be respectful. We are here for friendly discourse, so let's keep it friendly ..... and focused 

Edited March 4, 2021 by Brother Lunkhead

[jaxom]

I think the fictional nature of gene seed lends itself to the mystery (which I prefer in situations like this do everyone can have the theory that fits their liking). Is it possible to have a gene-seed without it being templated off a Primarch... one sec and I take that back, it is according to Saturnine.

[MECHFACE]

  On 3/4/2021 at 11:00 AM, jaxom said:

I think the fictional nature of gene seed lends itself to the mystery (which I prefer in situations like this do everyone can have the theory that fits their liking). Is it possible to have a gene-seed without it being templated off a Primarch... one sec and I take that back, it is according to Saturnine.

 

Yeah - it came in to my mind to check out two things from recent BL stuff. In particular 'The Last Son of Prospero' regarding the TS gene-seed and 'Saturnine' for the non-Primarch based gene-seed.

 

Below are the relevant sections from both:

 

'The Last Son of Prospero'

 

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Both legionnaires were covered with a thin layer of dust. Calliston, the taller one, wore full armor, except for a crest-like helmet that hung from his belt by a bronze chain. Arvida wore a loose field uniform, sparkling white in bright light. His skin was glistening with sweat. In the distance, at the very horizon, a wedge of golden cranes flapped lazily in the midday haze.

 

"What did you find out?" Calliston asked.

 

Revuel turned away and looked up into the sky, blurred with radiance. Something transparent hovered there, flickered and disappeared again, like a reflection seen with peripheral vision. Look directly and it will disappear, but out of the corner of your eye you can see it, even if only for a moment.

 

“My Gaze is failing me,” said Arvida. "It slips away from me. I see stones and the sky, nothing more."

 

Calliston smiled.

 

"It will return. The Great Ocean is changeable."

 

"Or dries up".

 

"Your tutelary does not lead you?"

 

"When I am blind, Janius also goes blind. If I see, he sees."

 

Calliston nodded and wiped the sweat from his forehead with his palm.

 

“I wish I had given you more time, but we received orders. We leave for emptiness."

 

"Right now?"

 

"Looks like it."

 

"Who made the order?"

 

"the Primarch."

 

Arvida hesitated. He long and unsuccessfully tried to overcome his habit of doubt, the need that prevented him from rising in the hierarchy of the legion, despite the strength that even Ahriman admitted, Revuel possessed. The Thousand Sons were a respectful legion. Disciplined. A legion that valued loyalty above all else.

 

“I don’t understand,” Arvida said unwillingly. "The ocean is restless, in the few visions we have left there is only death. Prospero needs protection more than ever. And you, brother-captain, advised the same."

 

 

 

/////

 

 

 

The sigilite pushed off the table and hobbled to the far wall. Although he no longer dealt with Arvida, the masked workers continued to take care of the body - rubbing ointments into it, drawing mysterious symbols on the swollen flesh. A huge machine full of pipes towered over everyone, spinning, whispering, accumulating energy, and then feeding it to the crackling ethereal traps hung around the room.

 

Hasan followed the master. Over the years since Khalid became the Chosen One, he has seen many difficult pictures. Going into the deep void, he snatched valuable artefacts from under the noses of the advancing traitors, and he had a chance to see a little bit of horror that befell humanity through the fault of Horus. But watching the Sigilite gradually wear itself out under the overwhelming burden of leadership ... that was the hardest thing to accept. The Regent of Terra burned to the ground, smashing himself against the anvil of the slow demise of the Imperium of Mankind.

 

 

 

“We knew his legion was suffering,” said Malcador. The Regent was still breathing shallowly, his face remained yellowish. "Even before we found Prospero, it became clear that they are susceptible to ailments. We tried to help the Thousand Sons. We thought it was a mistake in their gene code. I have thought so myself for years and we have tried our best to find a solution". Sigilite took another sip. "But the problem was not in the genocode. It lurked deeper, in the very essence of the legionnaires. In the end, only he was able to fulfil what was needed. We all believed that Magnus healed the sons. His Father believed it. Why should we doubt? Legions have always needed their genetic fathers - they were created to exist together, and Magnus has always been the most delicate of them all."

 

 

 

Hasan did not miss a word.

 

The sigilite rarely spoke about the early history of the Great Crusade, some secrets were still known only to him and the Lord of Mankind.

 

“But Magnus fell,” said Khalid.

 

“He was too reckless. Too proud. But, be that as it may, he is still the only one who managed to overcome the change of flesh. One day he healed his sons."

 

"Witchcraft".

 

Malcador shot him a sizzling look.

 

"Of course, witchcraft! He himself was created with the help of witchcraft. All the halls around us are built on the foundation of witchcraft. Stick any labels you want, there is no point in pretending anymore."

 

The regent again kissed the cup. He almost managed to stop the trembling in his hands.

 

"I'm not making excuses. There was no other way. And even now, even now, fate has not yet slipped out of our fingers. Arvida is here and he is still breathing. His soul is not yet lost."

 

“But… how can something… inside this …"

 

“He's alive, Khalid. Even now. There is still time."

 

 

 

//////

 

 

 

The tormented creature-fusion, freed from the containment fields and null-wards, moved again. His features changed with a painful smoothness. An incredible energy pulsed within him, bursting out of his mouth, eyes, outstretched fingers, but there was no one to control it. It shimmered with blue, purple and other colors, many of which had no name.

 

“You know me, brother… sorcerer,” said the Khan, coming closer. The flame fell before him, scattered into tongues. “You have crossed the realm of the gods. You will not die here."

 

The creature staggered back, clinging to invisible nightmares, and then the fire began to die out. The kaleidoscope of faces slowed down until only two remained: a monster bloated from the change in flesh and a one-eyed ghost - they grew into each other and separated again with incredible speed.

 

Malcador walked closer, limping, a mixture of apprehension and curiosity on his withered face, but did not intervene.

 

The creation again began to change, swell and break through. His skin darkened, burning away in psionic flames that consumed the growths of volcanoes of bone and blood. The creature's screams became truly mournful moans of existential horror. Its shell bent hideously, as if trying to contain more than a mortal body could hold. The flesh straightened, the tendons re-entwined, the shattered bones re-fused - the snow-white flame of undiluted immaterium changed everything.

 

 

 

Albeit slowly, but the currents of excess energy turned back and hardened into flesh. The creature fell to its knees, lost in the world of its own destruction and creation. Isolated flashes of flame still ran down his back. Twitching and staggering, the creature rose again and straightened to its full height. It shook off the necrotic masses of suffocating warpfire ... and turned out to be human.

 

 

 

He was alive. He was solid. He possessed a powerful stocky body, a square chin and a bullish neck. Tight muscles braided strong bones. The ulcers disappeared, the wounds healed. The man was naked - his rags were burned - and Khan and Malcador saw the brawny legionary. One of his eyes was a crooked, barely noticeable crack in the layer of scars, but the other was perfectly healthy. Charges of energy darted across the newly created skin, sparkling with such force that it was painful to look at. The air around him quivered, as if over the ancient deserts of Prospero, red-hot with heat.

 

 

 

The man looked up and there was no pain in them. Malcador was silent. The last debris of ethereal traps crashed down onto the stones of the floor. Blood transfusion devices hummed. Ritual flames flickered in bronze bowls. The Khan looked closely at the man in front of him. His face was at the same time the face of Arvida, and not Arvida, Magnus and not Magnus. It was not a Primarch, but it was not mortal either. The warriors studied each other for many heartbeats without moving or speaking.

 

 

 

Swirls of energy danced around the newborn creature, like flashes of lightning in a thunderstorm. The man slowly bent his arms, first one, then the other, and looked at them in mute amazement. His every movement was intermittent and accompanied by otherworldly flashes of the warp. Malcador gripped the staff in both hands, preparing to use it. The force that filled the hall, from which the air crackled, could turn into flame at any moment.

 

 

 

The Kagan lowered the blade just as slowly. He narrowed his eyes, as if examining a hunting falcon before a hunt. There was no Primarch's shadow in the body that appeared to him, but neither was the monstrous victim of the flesh transformation. Khan saw something different. Something new.

 

 

 

“You are not Arvida,” said Jagatai.

 

The man looked back at him.

 

"Not really".

 

"Your ailment?"

 

"it's gone".

 

Malcador remained alert. “Don't go near him,” he warned.

 

“I am not who you wanted me to be, Sigilite,” said the imperfect creature. “I understand what this means to you, and I'm sorry. Believe me."

 

The Regent looked surprised for a moment, then smiled dryly in defeat.

 

“The most delicate of them all,” he muttered.

 

The Khan sheathed the tulwar, still wondering if he was looking in the face of a comrade, brother, or both.

 

"Who should I call you?"

 

The creature looked up at the Primarch's face, and recognition flashed in its gaze. It recalled the glory of the Great Crusade, recalled the ashes of the burnt Tizka. Some of the memories, apparently, survived creation, but from others, only dreams remained on the edge of memory.

 

But, for the first time in a long time, the person did not experience pain, and this changed a lot.

 

When he spoke again, his voice was soft and soothing, though it split in two.

 

“Call me what I have always been called,” the man replied. "Call me Janius."

 

 

'Saturnine'

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Leetu [LE 2] took the weapon back and re-clamped it.

 

‘Why would I?’ he asked.

John shrugged. ‘Something new to play with? Improved stopping power?’

‘I stop all I need to stop,’ said the Space Marine.

‘I’m sure you do. So… what Legion were you?’

‘No Legion.’

‘Never assigned?’

‘Never anything.’

‘Right, sure, but which… bloodline?’ John asked. ‘Which Primarch was your gene-sire?’

Leetu looked at him. ‘My father was Neoth [the Emperor]. My mother was Erda [the Perpetual]. I was one of the first. Before they spliced in the gene-stocks.’

‘You were a prototype?’

‘A template.’

‘And your name? “Leetu”? That’s just a contraction of your serial code, LE 2 right?’

Leetu nodded.

‘So what is your name?’

‘I don’t have one. I’ve always been Leetu.’

 

My thoughts on these below:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

So if Malcador 'liar liar pants on fire' the Sigilite is to be believed then Magnus's gene-seed was not flawed. Also based on this look into Revuel's before/during/after flesh change it appears that the TS's understanding of what exactly the immaterial tutelaries were is also potentially linked to magnus, his shards, the flesh change and potentially how the TS actually needed to overcome it.

 

 

 

Also it is more than possible to be an Astartes using gene-seed without the need for Primarch DNA to be 'spliced' in.

 

 

 

Hmmmm... so again I think it could be both, either or neither !

Edited March 5, 2021 by MECHFACE

[MECHFACE]

Brother Tyler - you have a good point with the below. In fact there is an even better quote concerning the Titan Sword entry in GK 8e Codex

 

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'When Malcador the Sigillite took the first Grey Knights to Titan, one of the relics he carried with him was rumoured to be the ancient force sword. Along with his pure genetic legacy and psychic power, it was one of the Emperor’s gifts to the newly founded Chapter. Renamed the Titansword by Janus, the first Supreme Grand Master, the blade must be psychically attuned to each new master. Only once it is keyed to the mind of the wielder can its true killing power be called upon'.

So jokes aside regarding the veracity of the history of the Grey Knights being in-universe mythology or the actual facts, it is the only truly positive statement made for the history of the gene-template. Most likely created from the same template from which LE2 comes from but with the emperor's own gene-stock spliced in (with Magnus leading the Chapter in his absence in his form as the newly minted Ianius/Janus.

 

  On 3/3/2021 at 10:52 PM, Brother Tyler said:

 

"Where the other Space Marine Chapters were built upon existing stock, the Grey Knights were born of a new gene-seed, one without the flaws of those that had gone before, and which carried the gift of the Emperor's own flesh and soul."

[jaxom]

  Reveal hidden contents

Janus was a self-transmuted being (as per the quoted text from earlier. It seems then that the transmutation removed the TS gene coding from the bio-stock that was Arvida’s body.