Deathwing Knights and their support

[palin2222]

In past editions I used to run a squad of 5 DW knights in a LRC with an Int-Chappy, an Apothecary, and a champion. It was a fairly killy unit that was also resilient. The chappy would provide rerolls to hit on the charge, the ancient gave everyone more attacks, the champion didn't really do much but looked really cool, and the apothecary kept the unit topped off. 

 

This Edition, I've found that most of the support I was brining is now useless. Chappy only helps with rerolls 2/3rds of the turns he starts on the board. The turn he exits the raider isn't one of those turns. For the ancient, Extra attack when a model dies is situational at best as it will only help when a unit dies in melee.  It happens, but more times then not you are going to lose Knights to ranged. The upgrade for it is even worse, as the Knights are all ready WS2, and cant benefit from the +1 to attack anyway. The relic banner, that reduces damage could be good, but do you want to spend your relic slot on that? The Champion is still doing nothing, but looking good while doing it. The Apothecary seems to be the only one still going strong. Upgrade it to a chief apothecary, give it a WL trait and you are golden. 

 

So... how do you support your knights? Stick an Lt with them? A captain? Librarian? Don't worry about support and go for more knights?

[bigtrouble]

if you want them to be unmovable obsec, go with an ancient packing the relic banner and rites of war WLT. If you want them to be sure-fire go-to killers, run a libby nearby with mind wipe to turn off auras, and mind worm to force fight last for two fight phases. they may still need help on the charge, so a jump pack chief chaplain with the +1 to chant WLT or use a strat to auto chant when you need it

[ValourousHeart]

Bigtrouble is right.  What you had in the past was good at everything.  To make the unit good at everything now requires too many resources to make it viable.  But you can easily build the unit to do one thing spectacularly.  So I think you need to revise your battle plan to clearly define what each unit will do during the game to complete the mission, and then select the right character to support them in that role.

 

It is why everyone has taken so fondly to the apothecary, because it is one of the only units that works well no matter how you plan to use the unit the apothecary is supporting.  But if you stop your analyses there you miss out on the opportunity to find out if there is another character that will make the unit better for what you want them to do specifically.

 

For example, if you are only taking 2 models for your DW command squad, then the apothecary might be essential given how small the unit is.  But if you are taking 10 DWK, the apothecary is less essential because you can lose a few models without reducing the unit's chances of clobbering whatever you throw them at.  And a different buffing character might make them better at the clobbering part.

[G8Keeper]

I think a Librarian is pretty essential for DWK since our codex release, with the right powers you can both hamper the enemy (mind wipe, mind worm, engulfing fear, aversion) and buff your Knights (righteous repugnance, imho one of the best powers in the game).  Usually I teleport my DWK in and so would use a Terminator Librarian but, with the reduction in board size and the increase of import of mid-board areas making foot-slogging a real option, I think it's almost a must to upgrade that Librarian to Ezekiel.  He's a negligible amount of extra points when compared to a Chief Librarian, can take 3 powers (casting 2) and gives you +1 attack in the 2nd round of combat onwards, admittedly not much is going to make it into the 2nd round vs DWK, not to mention his personal buffs and wargear.

 

Chaplain's are also very interesting prospect for DA armies now, with certain builds able to absolutely wreck face.  They still exist as a decent utility character to get your Knights into combat with the Canticle of Hate litany for +2" to charges, especially since we lost the almost assured charges when using the old Combined Assault stratagem.

 

The problem is if you now add an Ancient with the Pennant of Remembrance and a Chief Apothecary, it's starting to really add up points wise and that can really hurt when an enemy is able to focus in on a single unit without much else in the way of threat.  As ValorousHeart has said, it's probably best to specialise, although I would/will probably add Ezekiel and a Chief Apothecary to most of my lists that include DWK.

[palin2222]

My main use for my knights is to bee-line it to the opponents biggest threat to me. Mortarion, a Knight, What ever big ugly they have. Then, assuming the units survives, take and hold an objective deep in enemy territory. 

 

Honestly the apothecary can stay, he is a solid model and he has saved many games for me. The DA relic banner on the ancient sounds like it will be helpful as well. Especially seeing as this unit will be targeting things that are designed to take out terminator the reduction in damage will be helpful. With only 1 support spot left, the choices come down between the chaplain and a Librarian. Eziekiel himself isn't that more more expensive then an Int-chap in terminator armor. Righteous Repugnance on a WC of 6 is more powerful and more reliable then the Chaplains chanting. Plus I can cast a second ability each turn, have access to 2 boosted denies, and His book will give me +1 attack in the second round of combat on. 

Edited March 3, 2021 by palin2222

[Berzul]

it is true that buffing a unit with 

 

Hidden Content

 

is not the same straightforward choice that it USED to be. 

 

You now need to buff them according to what you actually want them to do.

 

But, to the point of the initial analysis:

 

1) You CAN use a stratagem to get a litany up on the charge or fight phase, to compensate on the fact that the Chaplain arrives after the command phase. So, you can still pull some combos off.

 

2) You can bring the Pennant of Remembrance as an extra relic, which would cost a CP, sure, but would be worth it overall.

 

3) The +1 to hit on 20 points by upgrading the Ancient is also worth the money. Either to change up the knights with a squad of regular hammer terminators, or as a way of mitigating -1s to hit from your enemy. 

 

4) The one attack as you die IS situational, yes... And the +1A from Ezekiel or the Honor Vehement, for instance, are also situational now, since they do not stack with our natural +1A on the charge. 

 

5) The apothecary, on the other hand, is absolutely worth his cost. Specially since Terminators ARE a unit that can take some shots without dying, and can be brought back up. What I mean is, the regular tactical marine, for instance, might lose a wound or die. So, healing them is less cost effective than healing a terminator, who can tank up to two wounds on a model, which can be then be restored. 

 

6) The Chief Apothecary upgrade and the Selfless Healer trait, to be honest, might be the ONE part of the whole support structure I think is the MOST situational. Unless you are running two units side by side, and need to keep them both up, and are hard pressed for CP for bringing guys back to life so that you may spend one Warlord trait to get that stratagem for free, I don't think it is worth the investment. 

 

7) The librarian, finally, is absolutely amazing. I feel the Chaplain is better for getting into the fight (improving charges, for instance), but once there, the Librarian is better. Getting full rerrolls to hit and wound, geting -1s to hit on enemy ranged attacks against you, turning off auras, and getting the enemy to fight last, are all AMAZING abilities. So, I'd go with a librarian if I was to put the terminators on the board or a transport, and the chaplain if I was bringing them through deepstrike.

 

8) On that note, given board sizes and the area denials in the current edition, I don't think deepstriking is anywhere close to what it used to be. I mostly use deep striking to position a terminator squad on a convenient side of the board, for objective purposes. But I tend to get my deathwing knights on the board from the start and just run straight for the enemy. 

 

 

I have a tournament at the end of the month. I am planning on this set up, to see how it works:

 

5 Deathwing knights up front

5 Deathwing terminators behind them

In between, a Chief Apothecary WITHOUT selfless healer

An Ancient with the Pennant

A Librarian with RIghteous Repugnance and Aversion

 

The idea being to keep the shields up front, the storm bolters on back. Use the -1D on the regular terminators to discourage them getting shot. The chief apothecary to keep healing both squads as he moves along, and granting everyone a 6+++ save. The librarian assists with Aversion, until the knights get in range of the enemy, and then buffs them with Righteous Repugnance.

 

This would work as a small defensive/offensive preassure formation, to press the enemy and making them forgo some attacks against my ravenwing side.

[palin2222]

...

 

3) The +1 to hit on 20 points by upgrading the Ancient is also worth the money. Either to change up the knights with a squad of regular hammer terminators, or as a way of mitigating -1s to hit from your enemy. 

 

...

 

6) The Chief Apothecary upgrade and the Selfless Healer trait, to be honest, might be the ONE part of the whole support structure I think is the MOST situational. Unless you are running two units side by side, and need to keep them both up, and are hard pressed for CP for bringing guys back to life so that you may spend one Warlord trait to get that stratagem for free, I don't think it is worth the investment. 

 

 

Question and a comment about the Ancient

- When upgrading to the Chapter Ancient, the +1 to hit ability, does that replace the Basic banner ability of Death = free attack, or do you get both abilities? Further more, If you take the -1 Damage banner, does it replace this ability, or do the bonus's all stack? 

 

in either case: The +1 to hit is granted to a single unit during the command phase, which means that if the banner and the targeted unit are not on the table during your command phase you cant benefit from this ability that turn. So not on the turn you DS or disembark from the land raider. 

 

Don't forget that Selfless healer doesn't only make the revival stratagem free, it also makes the amount healed a flat 3, instead of D3. At least 33% of the heal is going to be wasted if you are only going to be targeting terminators with it, but you know that once healed a terminator will be at 100%. No rng involved. 

[bigtrouble]

Since the Knights don’t have obsec naturally, there are quite a few competitive folks who are suggesting that they aren’t worth the points vs. terminators or command squads. So strictly in the min-max style, you’re probably not going to want to support these guys much at all.

 

A unit of 8 can normally comfortably handle almost any threat in the game (e.g. takes down a Knight reliably), but against Morty, you’re still going to struggle to bring him down. With shock assault you are still only getting about 6 wounds off him in a round of combat, and would need to bring significant additional support, so you’d need to change the game plan.

 

What I think these guys can do better than anyone else is counter-charge. because of their 2+ WS and no minus to hit, they are the anti-terminators.

[palin2222]

To answer my own question, It looks like the Chapter Ancient Ability does not replace the Astartes Banner ability. Further more, The relic banner Pennate of Remembrance does not say it replaces anything in its description. So If I am reading this correctly, An Ancient in Terminator Armor, upgraded with the Chapter Ancient ability and given the Pennate would have all the abilites. The +1 LD aura, the 1 attack after dying on a 4+, the +1 to hit for 1 unit, and the -1 Damage ability. That is cool. Give it a warlord ability, and anything within 6" is obsec. If it already had obsec, it gets obsec x2.

Edited March 3, 2021 by palin2222

[G8Keeper]

Since the Knights don’t have obsec naturally, there are quite a few competitive folks who are suggesting that they aren’t worth the points vs. terminators or command squads. So strictly in the min-max style, you’re probably not going to want to support these guys much at all.

 

A unit of 8 can normally comfortably handle almost any threat in the game (e.g. takes down a Knight reliably), but against Morty, you’re still going to struggle to bring him down. With shock assault you are still only getting about 6 wounds off him in a round of combat, and would need to bring significant additional support, so you’d need to change the game plan.

 

What I think these guys can do better than anyone else is counter-charge. because of their 2+ WS and no minus to hit, they are the anti-terminators.

 

I think we will have to see how things go competitively to judge how worth it they are.  My take is they are mathematically at least one of the only units in the game that, with a couple of buffs, can destroy threats like Mortarion in one round of combat, that cannot be sniffed at.

[Berzul]

 

...

 

3) The +1 to hit on 20 points by upgrading the Ancient is also worth the money. Either to change up the knights with a squad of regular hammer terminators, or as a way of mitigating -1s to hit from your enemy. 

 

...

 

6) The Chief Apothecary upgrade and the Selfless Healer trait, to be honest, might be the ONE part of the whole support structure I think is the MOST situational. Unless you are running two units side by side, and need to keep them both up, and are hard pressed for CP for bringing guys back to life so that you may spend one Warlord trait to get that stratagem for free, I don't think it is worth the investment. 

 

 

Question and a comment about the Ancient

- When upgrading to the Chapter Ancient, the +1 to hit ability, does that replace the Basic banner ability of Death = free attack, or do you get both abilities? Further more, If you take the -1 Damage banner, does it replace this ability, or do the bonus's all stack? 

 

in either case: The +1 to hit is granted to a single unit during the command phase, which means that if the banner and the targeted unit are not on the table during your command phase you cant benefit from this ability that turn. So not on the turn you DS or disembark from the land raider. 

 

Don't forget that Selfless healer doesn't only make the revival stratagem free, it also makes the amount healed a flat 3, instead of D3. At least 33% of the heal is going to be wasted if you are only going to be targeting terminators with it, but you know that once healed a terminator will be at 100%. No rng involved. 

 

 

Well you did answer some of it already, but with regards to the healer:

 

Yeah, you get the flat 3 heals. but, Terminators will either have 2 wounds or 1 wound, when you heal them. A roll of d3 means your average will be 2, or at least 66% of the time you will heal the model entirely (when at 1 wound), and 100% of the time you will heal the model entirely (when at 2 wounds).

 

So, the flat 3 is good... But i don't see it as mandatory. 

[Vulshra]

I may be misreading something, but afaik knights don't have CORE, so aren't they ineligible for the banner and chaplain boosts?

[solarisqc]

I may be misreading something, but afaik knights don't have CORE, so aren't they ineligible for the banner and chaplain boosts?

Deathwing Knight have the CORE keyword.

[G8Keeper]

 

 

Well you did answer some of it already, but with regards to the healer:

 

Yeah, you get the flat 3 heals. but, Terminators will either have 2 wounds or 1 wound, when you heal them. A roll of d3 means your average will be 2, or at least 66% of the time you will heal the model entirely (when at 1 wound), and 100% of the time you will heal the model entirely (when at 2 wounds).

 

So, the flat 3 is good... But i don't see it as mandatory. 

 

 

Remember Chief Apothecary also makes the Combat Revival Stratagem free and the model is returned with full wounds.

Edited March 4, 2021 by G8Keeper

[Berzul]

 

 

 

Well you did answer some of it already, but with regards to the healer:

 

Yeah, you get the flat 3 heals. but, Terminators will either have 2 wounds or 1 wound, when you heal them. A roll of d3 means your average will be 2, or at least 66% of the time you will heal the model entirely (when at 1 wound), and 100% of the time you will heal the model entirely (when at 2 wounds).

 

So, the flat 3 is good... But i don't see it as mandatory. 

 

 

Remember Chief Apothecary also makes the Combat Revival Stratagem free and the model is returned with full wounds.

 

 

That is only if you ALSO give him Selfless healer, though. So, you are paying extra points and dedicating one of your two (at most) warlord traits, on this guy.

[G8Keeper]

It's not like you don't plan for it though right? You build your army so he has the most effect, use him on high value models (DWK) where he more than makes the points back with one revive. If I'm spending the points on Chief Apothecary I'm going to give him selfless healer to make that points spend more efficient.

[Berzul]

It's not like you don't plan for it though right? You build your army so he has the most effect, use him on high value models (DWK) where he more than makes the points back with one revive. If I'm spending the points on Chief Apothecary I'm going to give him selfless healer to make that points spend more efficient.

 

Of course! 

 

There are lists where I would take selfless healer. Others where I would not.

 

It depends... which is kinda of the whole deal right now. You no longer have an obvious way of buffing the knights. You need to tailor it a lot more, now.

[G8Keeper]

And for me, that's exactly how it should be. Nothing should be a no brainer.

[Berzul]

And for me, that's exactly how it should be. Nothing should be a no brainer.

 

Absolutely! I agree!

[backsosoon]

So I tried a 2k list with a 5 man DWK squad & a split 10 man DWT, for a shooty 2 CML squad and an assault with 3 LC and 2 THSS. I was against DG, and only managed to kill Mortarion with some lucky MM shots and failed saves. Part of that was that I didnt run those two assault squads right beside eachother & they kind of got picked apart on sequential turns, but I wanted more punch. 

 

So, tonight I tried out a 2000pt  list featuring a 10 man DWK squad supported by Ezekiel and a termie ancient with the relic banner & warlord trait to give the knights objective secured. That blob marched up the board while a 5man shooty terminator squad sat on my home objective. 

 

I think the warlord trait for obsec definitely came in clutch, and while you could use THSS terminators, the WS2+ just tanks. I did cast Righteous Repugnance when I needed stuff to die, but the benefit is obviously bigger in a 10 man squad than a 5. 

 

I also had the Chief Apothecary biker with selfless healer - it healed two DWK's to full, but I found myself using the revive on MM attack bikes - benefits of having a 10 man DWK squad is there is some room to lose a model or two... 

 

This is obviously an aggressive build for the knights, and I think a 5 man counterstrike squad shouldnt merit so much support - either a librarian (Ezekiel is so good) or maybe a Int-Chaplain.. haven't tried the latter myself (yet). 

[Fierce Bear]

From what the internetz are saying it seems like the DA 'Knights' are best when run as 10-man squads and you really commit them, do you think that's true Brothers?

 

#+5ToMyBackLog?

[Berzul]

I had 5 knights survive the full front of a Repulsor, 6 Erradicators, and 3 Outriders, for two rounds, yesterday.

 

Imagine what 10 guys can survive.

[Vulshra]

I had 5 knights survive the full front of a Repulsor, 6 Erradicators, and 3 Outriders, for two rounds, yesterday.

 

Imagine what 10 guys can survive.

What support did they have? Any apothecary or anything?

[Berzul]

 

I had 5 knights survive the full front of a Repulsor, 6 Erradicators, and 3 Outriders, for two rounds, yesterday.

 

Imagine what 10 guys can survive.

What support did they have? Any apothecary or anything?

I had one apothecary and one DW Ancient with the Pennant of Remembrance (which was inactive for the first round of shooting).