Unit of the Week: Paladin Ancient

[Skywrath]

Welcome to the Grey Knight unit of the Week, where we analyse the Grey Knights units strength's and weaknesses. The unit for this week is the revered Paladin Ancient. Each week a different unit will appear, with the idea being that we discuss how best to use that model on the battlefield.

 

Questions:

 

1. General first thoughts and impressions of the unit?

 

2. How would you use said unit, to compliment a list, or to build a list around? 

 

3. What other units/strategems synergize with it to give it that extra shine?

 

4. Miscellaneous use/Tips and Tricks?

 

 

BONUS: Creative ways to use units that wouldn't be obvious at first. 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Skywrath

[The Woodsman]

I'll kick this off then... The Paladin Ancient was a staple of my lists prior to Psychic Awakening. I'd pretty much always run a Brother-Captain/Ancient of Refining Flame combo, usually with Draigo (Vortex and Purge) and some Paladins as a "psychic bomb". And to be fair, before the Tides came along it was one of our stronger combinations as far as mortal wound output went.

 

These days, what with the vaults of Titan having been opened and us humble Grey Knight players getting access to a plethora of actually useful Relics, the more traditional Banner of Refining Flame takes a back seat - in my opinion at least partially responsible for the Ancient taking a back seat himself. That being said, his +1 attack is still great, he's a character and therefore grants an additional Dominus power and his +1 Ld aura is often overlooked, though in my opinion a key element of being effective with Purge Soul (if you're running it). 

 

As far a list-building goes, I don't think I'd build around him, but he's definitely a key factor if I'm trying to go mortal wound-heavy, and definitely does his job well as a support piece. Refining Flame still works if you want to pay some CP for extra relics (though the efficiency of this is debatable), but even just having him grant his aura and cast, say, Armored Resilience on the 10 Paladins he's accompanying should make up his points. Using the Finest Hour stratagem to get that +1 attack off in 9" can be key to a devastating Fight Phase... the more Knights getting that bonus, the more the Ancient is making up his points. Where he's kind of lacking, in my opinion, is his own combat ability... a single Falchion is nothing to write home about, but the extra attacks can still knock some wounds off a character or something. I wonder if there'd be an argument for sticking a psiweapon on him?

 

Just my thoughts, what do you guys think?

[Trollbeard]

I just had a game using the ancient with the Augurium Scrolls relic along side a 10man paladin squad and was super happy with it. Paladins getting 5 attacks on the charge in range of the banner is obscene.

 

In one fight phase I used Fury of the Proven for the +1 to hit, and that combined with rerolls from Voldus and the scrolls had me scoring more wounds then I had hit rolls lol. It was awesome.

 

I equipped the ancient with a psycannon for some extra high strength shooting so I didn’t try to get him into combat and was happy to have him sit in behind my paladins and shoot at vehicles. I really like psycannons with Tide of Convergeance.

 

Between his combat buffs and psycannon I found him being impactful in all phases of the game.

[Icosiel]

A couple months ago I discovered that the Ancient's banner ability grants +1 attack to models within 6", rather than units, and I haven't really used him since...

[Gnomeo]

Although this is paladin ancient. I would like to mention the brotherhood ancient. Unfortunately he is overpriced in comparison. Now back to paladin ancient. I think he is a solid pick however he does influence your list design more than other characters and I feel this is his biggest issue.

My feeling on grey knights is we are a strong army. Though we are hard to play and rely on our tricks to win. I feel that he affects list building a bit to much towards combat thus losing some versatility. Do I think he could work in a competitive list yes but will take some nice list design.

Edited March 5, 2021 by Gnomeo

[The Woodsman]

 

 

Some of the woodsman’s ideas are... valid and by that I mean, you can do that in a game... but why would you?

 

It’s hard to counter your points without derailing a thread into something else entirely.

 

What it comes down to is this; and Woodsman touched on it, you can give him a relic, you can spend more cp on him to increase his aura’s range, but all these are subjectively sub optimal purchases and uses of CP. having played tested your ideas and tried to jump on the band wagon of “common internet” GK lists, it just feels inefficient, over-costed and sub-par.

 

Subjectively, there’s more important stratagems, better relics, and better ways to spend your cp. rather then trying to increase the “rating” of bad character and try to make him average.

 

You are effectively starting 6feet deep and trying to climb out of a hole. Better to start out of the hole and climb the mountain instead.

 

 

Yeah I agree that if you start spending huge amounts of CP on you're losing efficiency. I think there's a lot to be said for looking at things situationally - I very much agree with Gnomeo that Grey Knights do actually have a lot to work with when it comes to tricks and plays available to you. Its just that unlike some other armies (looking at you Codex Marines, lol I think even Necrons, Sisters, Harlequins, heck Daemons) that can build a list around a strategy that will work effectively against pretty much any other list, Grey Knights will always have to adapt their gameplay to what they are facing. Getting slightly off topic here, but it'll come round I promise lol. So that being said, planning on spending the CP on Finest Hour every game is probably a command points-sink. (Refining Flame really isn't a must, especially if you're not building that kind of list). On the game where you do need to spread out a little, and that Finest Hour will allow you to get another 5-man Terminator Squad (or Paladins) into the +1 Attack aura, which could subsequently tip the scales in your favor for a devastating Fight phase... then the CP spent is worth a lot more than its actual cost. Same goes for most of our stratagems. Psybolt Ammunition is one of our best, IMO (though could be cheaper tbh), but if your shooting at T5, 3W, 2+ Blightlord Terminators, you're probably better off saving the CP for something else and hoping for a little luck on your regular bolters. This is my opinion, not mathematical fact. 

 

Coming back to our mate the Ancient (both variations really, they bring the same buff just not the same statline - actually still pretty similar, for the same points). In a age where we are looking at maximizing a single Battalion in order to get those precious command points, he definitely has worth simply for the extra power, depending on who you're running as HQ. You're probably going to end up in combat (in my opinion its actually the best way to keep your units safe), so the +1 Attack is always going to be nice to have. Giving him a relic such as Augurium Scrolls just amps up his support game, but I agree you'll mostly always want to lean towards the Shard and Nullifier Matrix. Situationally, several stratagems allow to amp his support even further... I've already mentioned Finest Hour, there are others such as the +1 to cast bubble, etc. Is he must-take? Not in my opinion. Neither is he garbage, also in my opinion. 

 

As a side-note, I think we Grey Knights players need to start looking beyond blanket strategies/strategem use, and see how we can master a playstyle which requires us to make smart use of the various options we have available, according to the specific match-up and mission. Denial is the name of the game, and we definitely have the tools to protect our key units as well as stopping our opponent from scoring Primary objectives. 

[Gnomeo]

 

 

 

 

Some of the woodsman’s ideas are... valid and by that I mean, you can do that in a game... but why would you?

 

It’s hard to counter your points without derailing a thread into something else entirely.

 

What it comes down to is this; and Woodsman touched on it, you can give him a relic, you can spend more cp on him to increase his aura’s range, but all these are subjectively sub optimal purchases and uses of CP. having played tested your ideas and tried to jump on the band wagon of “common internet” GK lists, it just feels inefficient, over-costed and sub-par.

 

Subjectively, there’s more important stratagems, better relics, and better ways to spend your cp. rather then trying to increase the “rating” of bad character and try to make him average.

 

You are effectively starting 6feet deep and trying to climb out of a hole. Better to start out of the hole and climb the mountain instead.

 

Yeah I agree that if you start spending huge amounts of CP on you're losing efficiency. I think there's a lot to be said for looking at things situationally - I very much agree with Gnomeo that Grey Knights do actually have a lot to work with when it comes to tricks and plays available to you. Its just that unlike some other armies (looking at you Codex Marines, lol I think even Necrons, Sisters, Harlequins, heck Daemons) that can build a list around a strategy that will work effectively against pretty much any other list, Grey Knights will always have to adapt their gameplay to what they are facing. Getting slightly off topic here, but it'll come round I promise lol. So that being said, planning on spending the CP on Finest Hour every game is probably a command points-sink. (Refining Flame really isn't a must, especially if you're not building that kind of list). On the game where you do need to spread out a little, and that Finest Hour will allow you to get another 5-man Terminator Squad (or Paladins) into the +1 Attack aura, which could subsequently tip the scales in your favor for a devastating Fight phase... then the CP spent is worth a lot more than its actual cost. Same goes for most of our stratagems. Psybolt Ammunition is one of our best, IMO (though could be cheaper tbh), but if your shooting at T5, 3W, 2+ Blightlord Terminators, you're probably better off saving the CP for something else and hoping for a little luck on your regular bolters. This is my opinion, not mathematical fact.

 

Coming back to our mate the Ancient (both variations really, they bring the same buff just not the same statline - actually still pretty similar, for the same points). In a age where we are looking at maximizing a single Battalion in order to get those precious command points, he definitely has worth simply for the extra power, depending on who you're running as HQ. You're probably going to end up in combat (in my opinion its actually the best way to keep your units safe), so the +1 Attack is always going to be nice to have. Giving him a relic such as Augurium Scrolls just amps up his support game, but I agree you'll mostly always want to lean towards the Shard and Nullifier Matrix. Situationally, several stratagems allow to amp his support even further... I've already mentioned Finest Hour, there are others such as the +1 to cast bubble, etc. Is he must-take? Not in my opinion. Neither is he garbage, also in my opinion.

 

As a side-note, I think we Grey Knights players need to start looking beyond blanket strategies/strategem use, and see how we can master a playstyle which requires us to make smart use of the various options we have available, according to the specific match-up and mission. Denial is the name of the game, and we definitely have the tools to protect our key units as well as stopping our opponent from scoring Primary objectives.

Very well put brother could not agree more!!

[Icosiel]

 

A couple months ago I discovered that the Ancient's banner ability grants +1 attack to models within 6", rather than units, and I haven't really used him since...

... But back to your comment, that someone as casual as you is shelffing him... what does that say for the rest of us who min/max?...

I don't know if I'd call myself casual. Narrative, certainly, but I definitely commit myself a lot to Grey Knights.

[Waking Dreamer]

Edit: It's okay, never mind. 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Waking Dreamer

[Skywrath]

I find the Paladin Ancient useful, more-so than the Apothecary. Here's why. First of all, he's the ideal relic carrier/warlord. Usually I'd give the relic to a BC, but seeing how most of my lists now seem to be favouring smites, I give it to the next best thing - him. 

 

Recently, I discovered he could also be the perfect Inner Fire caster. Give him the banner of refining flame, inner fire, and off he goes. Similar reason why as the BChamp thread, but with the added possibility of him actually surviving his drop. Other than that, he's perfect with the paladins and the Augurium Scrolls and the FTTF WL trait, each paladin now has 5 attacks each, with hits of 6 generating more hits. For that reason I usually run him with Armoured Resilience/Hammerhand, depending on how many dominus casters I have in my lists. Other than that, his usefulness is limited, I'm afraid - with our models still be 1W, I don't suspect he would help any PA unit, but he's ideal if you are running Paladins/Terminators as they would be long enough to survive to reap the benefits. The other possibility is putting him on the board with the Inner Fire ability, but babysitting a 10m squad of paladins. 

 

Recently, him being a Nemesis Lord could be pretty spicy - 5 attacks, S4, -2, D3+1 damage falchions with Hammerhand wounding on 3's. Have yet to test that out, but when we get the Hero of the Chapter upgrade, that could be an option for a pretty spicy beatstick. Of course, then I suspect the BChamp could see play, but as this is the moment, other than the reasons specified above, I'd rate him as useful at best.

Edited March 6, 2021 by Skywrath

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

 

A couple months ago I discovered that the Ancient's banner ability grants +1 attack to models within 6", rather than units, and I haven't really used him since...

... But back to your comment, that someone as casual as you is shelffing him... what does that say for the rest of us who min/max?...

I don't know if I'd call myself casual. Narrative, certainly, but I definitely commit myself a lot to Grey Knights.

 

I wouldn't say you were a "casual" player either 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Brother Lunkhead

[Gnomeo]

I find the Paladin Ancient useful, more-so than the Apothecary. Here's why. First of all, he's the ideal relic carrier/warlord. Usually I'd give the relic to a BC, but seeing how most of my lists now seem to be favouring smites, I give it to the next best thing - him.

 

Recently, I discovered he could also be the perfect Inner Fire caster. Give him the banner of refining flame, inner fire, and off he goes. Similar reason why as the BChamp thread, but with the added possibility of him actually surviving his drop. Other than that, he's perfect with the paladins and the Augurium Scrolls and the FTTF WL trait, each paladin now has 5 attacks each, with hits of 6 generating more hits. For that reason I usually run him with Armoured Resilience/Hammerhand, depending on how many dominus casters I have in my lists. Other than that, his usefulness is limited, I'm afraid - with our models still be 1W, I don't suspect he would help any PA unit, but he's ideal if you are running Paladins/Terminators as they would be long enough to survive that. The other possibility is putting him on the board with the Inner Fire ability, but babysitting a 10m squad of paladins.

 

Recently, him being a Nemesis Lore could be pretty spicy - 5 attacks, S4, -2, D3+1 damage falchions with Hammerhand wounding on 3's. Have yet to test that out, but when we get the Hero of the Chapter upgrade, that could be an option for a pretty spicy beatstick. Of course, then I suspect the BChamp could see play, but as this is the moment, other than the reasons specified above, I'd rate him as useful at best.

So I know I commented about inner fire and refining flame as well but had a niggling doubt in my head. I was thinking why hadn't I thought of this before. So checked the books. And it doesn't as the banner means you lose the rights of banishment rule. And powerful adept requires the unit to have it. Damn small print.

[Skywrath]

 

I find the Paladin Ancient useful, more-so than the Apothecary. Here's why. First of all, he's the ideal relic carrier/warlord. Usually I'd give the relic to a BC, but seeing how most of my lists now seem to be favouring smites, I give it to the next best thing - him.

 

Recently, I discovered he could also be the perfect Inner Fire caster. Give him the banner of refining flame, inner fire, and off he goes. Similar reason why as the BChamp thread, but with the added possibility of him actually surviving his drop. Other than that, he's perfect with the paladins and the Augurium Scrolls and the FTTF WL trait, each paladin now has 5 attacks each, with hits of 6 generating more hits. For that reason I usually run him with Armoured Resilience/Hammerhand, depending on how many dominus casters I have in my lists. Other than that, his usefulness is limited, I'm afraid - with our models still be 1W, I don't suspect he would help any PA unit, but he's ideal if you are running Paladins/Terminators as they would be long enough to survive that. The other possibility is putting him on the board with the Inner Fire ability, but babysitting a 10m squad of paladins.

 

Recently, him being a Nemesis Lore could be pretty spicy - 5 attacks, S4, -2, D3+1 damage falchions with Hammerhand wounding on 3's. Have yet to test that out, but when we get the Hero of the Chapter upgrade, that could be an option for a pretty spicy beatstick. Of course, then I suspect the BChamp could see play, but as this is the moment, other than the reasons specified above, I'd rate him as useful at best.

So I know I commented about inner fire and refining flame as well but had a niggling doubt in my head. I was thinking why hadn't I thought of this before. So checked the books. And it doesn't as the banner means you lose the rights of banishment rule. And powerful adept requires the unit to have it. Damn small print.

 

God damn it, another detail screws the plan over. However that being said, you can still dynamic insert him 3" for a D6 smite, which is *something*.

Edited March 6, 2021 by Skywrath

[Gnomeo]

Definitely in which case vortex or purge soul are 2 options

[The Woodsman]

 

 

 

A couple months ago I discovered that the Ancient's banner ability grants +1 attack to models within 6", rather than units, and I haven't really used him since...

... But back to your comment, that someone as casual as you is shelffing him... what does that say for the rest of us who min/max?...

I don't know if I'd call myself casual. Narrative, certainly, but I definitely commit myself a lot to Grey Knights.

 

I wouldn't say you were a "casual" player either 

 

 

Yeah the guy is heavily invested... and narrative doesn't have to mean lay down and roll over. There are ways to build strong, thematic lists for sure.

[Skywrath]

Definitely in which case vortex or purge soul are 2 options

 

Yeah, Ld 10 with purifiers with purge soul, on top of that banner is nothing to scoff at. That being said, we don't really have a way to use (or abuse, let's be real here ;p) LD shenanigans to our cause haha.  Maybe in the new codex..which seems an eternity away.

 

That being said what do we think of the Nemesis Lord idea with Damage D3+1 falchions?

Edited March 6, 2021 by Skywrath

[Gnomeo]

 

 

Definitely in which case vortex or purge soul are 2 options

Yeah, Ld 10 with purifiers with purge soul, on top of that banner is nothing to scoff at. That being said, we don't really have a way to use (or abuse, let's be real here ;p) LD shenanigans to our cause haha. Maybe in the new codex..which seems an eternity away.

 

That being said what do we think of the Nemesis Lord idea with Damage D3+1 falchions?

Getting a bit of topic now but yeah not really the only way is by adding in an inquisitor.