Can we compete with our Dark Angel brethren?

[Rhavien]

Hello noble warriors. I often found myself comparing our codex against the new dark Angels lately and what shall I say, it doesn't look good. At first I told myself not to worry that much, but a friend of mine plays dark Angels and we had 2 games since the Da codex has dropped with 1000 points and I struggled hard against him. I couldn't shift those deathwing terminators whatever I threw at them and the chief apothecary fixed everything up when I managed to make a dent. Second game I even tailored my list against him using lots of small arms fire and no big cc threats myself, as they will just vanish when they touch those deathwing Knights.

So what do you guys think. Where are our advantages, what will not work against them or are they strictly better? Maybe it's a different game at 2k but on a smaller board they just dominate the midfield with a huge threat range even at 5" movement. Please discuss.

[BloodyB]

DA are strong, but ironically vulnerable to their own tricks. Overcharged dreadnought plasma and heavy hellblaster fire work well.

 

Predator destructors with bolter sponsons can cause some harm too, as can assault centurions with bolters.

 

My advice is take msu infiltrators as troops to block off the board, a redemptor with plasma or 2, some hellblasters with the heavies and calmly remember that the DW knights don't get to play much in the dakka phase. Some eliminators might help pick off characters like the apothecary. For an HQ, consider a sniper captain of some kind.

 

Sorry to say, but to beat DA, it might be best to play as Space Marines first, and Blood Angels second. Hope this helps.

[The Unseen]

DA are just objectively better marines at the things 9th cares about.

You can still win, but you're going to be at a pretty severe disadvantage with BA vs them, since we can't actually fight them toe to toe, and we don't have nearly as many tricks as say white scars have.

 

But it also depends on how cutthroat your opponent is.

If he's brought a more casual list it'd be ok.

But if he's brought 30+ terminators, we functionally just can't take that list on with the usual style BA.

[Blindhamster]

if all the other supplements are marines +1, DA are marines +2. We can beat them just like we can beat anything, but its always going to be an uphil struggle.

[Tokugawa]

Only next FAQ could beat the transhuman terminator abusement army. Remember 8th Iron hands?

[Mordas]

Will be interesting to see what their FAQ brings. I only played against DA a few times but from the limited things I have read and seen it's only the terminators that I would say need tweaking at first glance.

[Gederas]

Will be interesting to see what their FAQ brings. I only played against DA a few times but from the limited things I have read and seen it's only the terminators that I would say need tweaking at first glance.

So, here's the thing: Terminators don't even need tweaking. Speaking as a Dark Angels player, they fix the biggest weakness of Terminators (in that they're not anywhere near as durable as they should be), and they still have a glaring weakness:

 

Objectives.

 

I played a game against my friend who plays Blood Angels, and he requested I take the super crazy Deathwing List (Deathwing Apothecary, Ancient with Relic Banner, Deathwing Knights) and I brought a full Deathwing list for a 1500 game.

 

Yeah, he had a hell of a time killing my models (only lost a grand total of 3 models), but he managed to outspeed me and won the game by objectives. By a major amount too

 

The biggest thing people seem to take umbridge with Dark Angels is that, 9e is SUPER HYPER-LETHAL with the game. And Deathwing say "lolnope" to most of the stuff that makes 9E so hyper-lethal. However, they're pointed at a proper amount, and their weaknesses can be easily exploited and played around

Edited March 6, 2021 by Gederas

[Helias_Tancred]

They're very strong overall, and almost invincible with certain builds. More curious than how they play now is what nerf bat beatings will they get in the future? lol.

 

For the record I own two armies, about 12k of Blood Angels and 9k of Dark Angels ... Right now I've got my DA boxed up and stored in the garage, while I focus on my Blood Angels both in getting them painted and exclusively playing them in 9th in order to get good with them. They were my first army back in 2011, and the ones I'm the most in love with for lore, chapter culture & values, characters, and their place within the 40k genre. Rule of Cool > Power.

Edited March 6, 2021 by Helias Tancred

[Gloomfoe]

Only the deathwing are the issue. Sure, they ignore our chapter tactic, that's annoying. Permanent transhuman, annoying. But we can do a lot of what they do. Our terminators can hit on 2+(quake bolts/fury of the first), can also be objective secured with the "rites of war" WL trait. The only thing we can't get that they have is transhuman(and maybe some strats or relics, I'm not that familiar with their codex yet). Fair enough. We have Sanguinary priests(early access to the assault doctrine),an extra attack, +1 to charge,exploding 6's with a librarian,first turn charge with death company, a friggin librarian dreadnought that can friggin fly, and the mother effing Sanguinary guard!!!!

Get some!!!

[Gederas]

Only the deathwing are the issue. Sure, they ignore our chapter tactic, that's annoying. Permanent transhuman, annoying. But we can do a lot of what they do. Our terminators can hit on 2+(quake bolts/fury of the first), can also be objective secured with the "rites of war" WL trait. The only thing we can't get that they have is transhuman(and maybe some strats or relics, I'm not that familiar with their codex yet). Fair enough. We have Sanguinary priests(early access to the assault doctrine),an extra attack, +1 to charge,exploding 6's with a librarian,first turn charge with death company, a friggin librarian dreadnought that can friggin fly, and the mother effing Sanguinary guard!!!!

Get some!!!

I would like to say this:

 

I experienced everything you mentioned against my friend's Blood Angels and.... Let's just say my Deathwing (not the Knights, regular Deathwing terminators) rolled over the Death Company and Sanguinary Guard.

 

The Knights killed the Librarian Dreadnought that was foolish enough to charge them :lol:

 

Also, a purely DEATHWING Vanguard detachment gets ObSec on Deathwing Terminators, Terminator Squads, Terminator Assault Squads and Relic Terminators. No need to spend a Warlord trait.

 

I lost because he used Infiltrators, had them camp on objectives since turn  and basically got any deep-striking basically stuck in my deployment zone until turn 3 due to their bubble of Deep-Strike Denial :lol:

[Tokugawa]

DA also have the easiest secondary in the whole game. Don't be tabled, and you will receive 15VPs as prize. Practices of skill, or plan against opponent tactics, are not really needed.

[Rhavien]

Could someone who is proficient with DA tell me how exactly the bonuses are granted? I understood, that you receive the obSec on Termis only in a pure deathwing detachment, but how about perma transhuman? Is that an inbuilt ability? Have to admit I don't get all the layers of the DA rules yet.

Btw people keep saying that mobility is a huge thing for those terminators, but you can make a lot of ground running one round round and let's be honest, we also spend first turn to get our units where they need. They only need to grab those midfield objectives and stay there till the end of the match.

Also there is ravenwing. If you, as a DA player limit yourself only to deathwing that's on you. Ravenwing even has their own forlorn fury thing going...

[Bonzi]

I've played one game against DA and I did it with my Necrons so my thoughts come with a grain of salt. If you want to beat DA, you'll have to outplay them. I won my game because Necrons tear up marine saves in shooting and they do it with a lot of St4 and St 5 shooting and I could bog his Deathwing Knights with blobs of warriors who don't care about thunder hammers.

 

DA 'weakness' is they are points dense and very CP hungry. Their units tend to be small so they won't be able to screen their characters for long.

 

Against BA I will say that DA arnt the be all broken army everyone makes them out to be, but they are the rock to BA scissors. Their mainline elite melee units are better than BA mainline melee units. You won't out fight those units toe to toe. You won't out speed their fastest units either.

 

BAs advantage is ALL our units are better in melee and a lot of our units have fly which gives an advantage in picking and avoiding fights. You'll have to play to that and probably do more shooting than a BA player is happy doing.

[Gederas]

Could someone who is proficient with DA tell me how exactly the bonuses are granted? I understood, that you receive the obSec on Termis only in a pure deathwing detachment, but how about perma transhuman? Is that an inbuilt ability? Have to admit I don't get all the layers of the DA rules yet.

Btw people keep saying that mobility is a huge thing for those terminators, but you can make a lot of ground running one round round and let's be honest, we also spend first turn to get our units where they need. They only need to grab those midfield objectives and stay there till the end of the match.

Also there is ravenwing. If you, as a DA player limit yourself only to deathwing that's on you. Ravenwing even has their own forlorn fury thing going...

INNER CIRCLE is the ability given to any DEATHWING unit like how JINK is given to RAVENWING. The permanent Transhuman Physiology is a part of the Inner Circle ability, and affects any non-Vehicle, Infantry model (so Sammael and Ravenwing Black Knights don't get it)

 

So yes, it's an inbuilt ability.

 

Regarding the objectives: Reread what I said. Infiltrators hard-counter the Deathwing's deep-striking.

 

And the Ravenwing.... If you're trying to get ObSec Terminators, you'll have to use another Detachment of Ravenwing (unless you stick the aforementioned Black Knights into the Vanguard Detachment, as they have the DEATHWING keyword), which means you lose a notable amount of Command Points.

 

 

As Bonzi said above, you outplay Dark Angels to beat them, and the only boogeyman of the Dark Angels is the Deathwing Knights (which are more expensive than Hammernators btw) and those are easily dealt with by avoiding them once they deploy.

 

Also: Mortal Wound spam

[YogiDaAngel]

As our brothers from caliban said, we need to outplay deathwing with speed and manuverablity from strats and vs ravenwing we just punch them real hard. 
I think internet over hypes everything since lockdowns and covid. DA got better supplement but we don't have bad either just not that flavourfull as theirs.
I see a lot of BA players forget that we aren't all about punch enemy to death but we are more of outmaneuver them and strike fast and hard in a lot of places.

Edited March 6, 2021 by YogiDaAngel

[Blindhamster]

 

 

Will be interesting to see what their FAQ brings. I only played against DA a few times but from the limited things I have read and seen it's only the terminators that I would say need tweaking at first glance.

So, here's the thing: Terminators don't even need tweaking. Speaking as a Dark Angels player, they fix the biggest weakness of Terminators (in that they're not anywhere near as durable as they should be), and they still have a glaring weakness:

 

Objectives.

 

I played a game against my friend who plays Blood Angels, and he requested I take the super crazy Deathwing List (Deathwing Apothecary, Ancient with Relic Banner, Deathwing Knights) and I brought a full Deathwing list for a 1500 game.

 

Yeah, he had a hell of a time killing my models (only lost a grand total of 3 models), but he managed to outspeed me and won the game by objectives. By a major amount too

 

The biggest thing people seem to take umbridge with Dark Angels is that, 9e is SUPER HYPER-LETHAL with the game. And Deathwing say "lolnope" to most of the stuff that makes 9E so hyper-lethal. However, they're pointed at a proper amount, and their weaknesses can be easily exploited and played around

But deathwing terminators shouldnt be that much better than all other terminators. They do need tweaking. Probably should have had the same as the other chapter trait with 1s and 2s never wounding them.

 

But.. *shrug* deathwing is just part of it. The issue with DA is the fact that they can and are good at everything, they can outclassed combat armies, they can outlast tough armies, they can outmaneuver fast armies. All in the same list. They are comparatively easy to cover all bases and have no major list weaknesses.

 

It's why the general consensus is that you have to actually be a better player to beat them as pure numbers, you wont.

 

P.s. an all deathwing list is indeed going to struggle because then it actually has weaknesses.

[DistractionTacMarine]

I don’t really see DA getting nerfed at this point, they’re not winning events thus far. Could be that the meta players haven’t been able to paint them up yet, time will tell.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Unless they nerf Deathwing to the point of it being unplayable or unreasonable, I don't think any problems facing DA will go away, as most of it comes from the combinations of the different wings. This is a product of having rules that actually implement the army, which is not going to go away.

 

I haven't played with or against BA or DA yet this edition, but my first impression from the DA book is that it will catch anyone used to playing against the army in the past a bit flat footed. Their 8E book pushed this weird gunline thing, which is not anything the army should be at all, and that has basically been tossed out entirely, leaving a much more melee army. It's best to look at it almost like a new army. Their 8E rules failed at expressing their way of warfare in a fundamental way and were reconstructed pretty much in entirety. 

Edited March 9, 2021 by WrathOfTheLion

[Gederas]

I don’t really see DA getting nerfed at this point, they’re not winning events thus far. Could be that the meta players haven’t been able to paint them up yet, time will tell.

Unless they nerf Deathwing to the point of it being unplayable or unreasonable, I don't think any problems facing DA will go away, as most of it comes from the combinations of the different wings. This is a product of having rules that actually implement the army, which is not going to go away.

 

I haven't played with or against BA or DA yet this edition, but my first impression from the DA book is that it will catch anyone used to playing against the army in the past a bit flat footed. Their 8E book pushed this weird gunline thing, which is not anything the army should be at all, and that has basically been tossed out entirely, leaving a much more melee army. It's best to look at it almost like a new army. Their 8E rules failed at expressing their way of warfare in a fundamental way and were reconstructed pretty much in entirety. 

This. The rules have changed and Dark Angels are basically an entirely new Chapter and not the weird gunline with useless other units like it was previously.

[WrathOfTheLion]

More specifically, the Dark Angels are a melee counter-charge army now. They want to be in melee, and they're especially going to shine if you charge them, and you don't kill them. They're designed to parry and riposte, and will counter other melee factions. A lot of their strategems, psychic powers and other supporting elements even ignoring Ravenwing and Deathwing are designed to take punches from something like Space Wolves or Blood Angels and then hit back hard.

 

They are not a 'ranged' army though in the same way one might think of IF or IH, so it's a melee vs melee army when facing them, thinking you're up against a ranged army is a complete category error.

Edited March 9, 2021 by WrathOfTheLion

[Rhavien]

I've read some reviews and also I feel some agreement here that GW went a bit too far with DA. Summed up they are tooled up to the teeth with strats, secondaries, relics, WL traits, a very good psychic discipline and goodies stacked on goodies like obSec Terminators. They are a hard counter to some armies, something that's never fun for anyone at the receiving end.

I'm really curious how they will perform at tournaments in the future.

[Shaezus]

The post - BA releases have made BA feel second - tier already. Looking forward to how Drukhari will turn out, even if it just means more uphill struggle on the tabletop.

 

DA psychic powers make the sanguinary discipline look so weak. The only unique and influential trick BA have is a single relic,the visage of death

[Xenith]

More specifically, the Dark Angels are a melee counter-charge army now. They want to be in melee, and they're especially going to shine if you charge them, and you don't kill them. They're designed to parry and riposte, and will counter other melee factions. A lot of their strategems, psychic powers and other supporting elements even ignoring Ravenwing and Deathwing are designed to take punches from something like Space Wolves or Blood Angels and then hit back hard.

 

They are not a 'ranged' army though in the same way one might think of IF or IH, so it's a melee vs melee army when facing them, thinking you're up against a ranged army is a complete category error.

 

Well, that's two things DA were designed for and are good at, compared to the BA's one  .

 

I'm glad that the DA book seems to be written with a vision and focus, however it seems that (like the last book) BA had none of this, and while the last book became Codex: Smash Captain until they took it away from us, the new book is Codex: Sanguinary Guard and Priest) - When they get the inevitable point increase, I'm sure going to feel it's dead in the water. At least they put a lot of effort into ways to make our beloved heroes fall to the Black Rage in Crusade though! 

 

In terms of DA, the army feels better rounded and strong, not just plasma gunlines. I dont know if they got rid of weapons of the dark ages, though knowing the overall strength of the codex it's probably still in there. 

 

I have yet to play them, but it's going to be some interesting match ups for sure. For BA, with the advent of DG and DA, it seems a slight meta shift from SG to VV's with shield/claw for the same number of attacks for multiple 1D wounds, and the reroll to wound being stronger than the +1S against DW.

 

Death co? Friendly games, maybe, but a tourney facing DW or DG? They wont get through DW TDA, and against DG they stand to lose 60% of their attacks on the charge against one of the seeming keystone set ups of the army. 

 

More and more I'm convinced to use other chapter's rules for the BA, ot at least successors, which is a sad state of affairs to be in 3 months after codex drop. In particular I'm looking at Hungrry for Battle + Whirlwind of Rage.

 

Statistically speaking, Whirlwind results in the same number of wounds as +1 to wound, so it's a wash, but itn't negated by Deathwing or Transhuman. 

Edited March 10, 2021 by Xenith

[WrathOfTheLion]

You have to parry to riposte, a riposte is a counterstrike. Taking punches and hitting back is just another way of phrasing that.

 

They kept weapons from the Dark Age, but even in 8E it wasn't something an army could successfully be built around.

 

I've also had yet to play as or against them, been playing SW so far, who I have found enjoyable as well.

Edited March 10, 2021 by WrathOfTheLion

[Xenith]

You have to parry to riposte, a riposte is a counterstrike. Taking punches and hitting back is just another way of phrasing that.

 

They kept weapons from the Dark Age, but even in 8E it wasn't something an army could successfully be built around.

 

I've also had yet to play as or against them, been playing SW so far, who I have found enjoyable as well.

 

I know that - both are separate ations, though. While Death guard can parry, easily nullifying BA assaults, they might not hit back as hard (riposte) while the DA seem to be able to.

 

To continue the fencing terminology, all BA has is the fleche, or wait a turn then fleche. 

 

As for WotDA - I played a couple of games against a black knight bomb. A full unit of them max advancing with Sammael, shooting plasma talons at full BS with sammael rerolls and with WotDA is a pretty nasty alpha strike.