Can we compete with our Dark Angel brethren?

[Blindhamster]

anyone saying the new DA aren't just strictly better than other marines is honestly crazy. The issue with them is that assuming you build them as the intended mixed wing army, they don't really have weaknesses (other than MAYBE a couple CP lower, but thats made up for by them getting benefits in just about every phase compared to any other marine list - and marines were good enough already).

It's not even just about BA vs DA, its SM vs DA IMO. DA just come out better. I suspect when BT get their update they'll be in a similar boat to DA too.

[Rhavien]

Totally agree with blindhamster. I only compared them to BA, because that's the chapter I'm playing.

[Xenith]

anyone saying the new DA aren't just strictly better than other marines is honestly crazy. The issue with them is that assuming you build them as the intended mixed wing army, they don't really have weaknesses (other than MAYBE a couple CP lower, but thats made up for by them getting benefits in just about every phase compared to any other marine list - and marines were good enough already).

 

Agree there. Hadnot thought of it in that way, but taking multiple detachments, like a Deathwing Vanguard one in addition to the greenwing...the -2CP tax is a joke - a 2CP pre-game stratagem to make all your terminators ObSec during a game would be a no-brainer. 

[DistractionTacMarine]

Mixed wing is a trap IMO. Greenwing is just vanilla SM with a situationally useful doctrine, Ravenwing is good but not durable enough to hold objectives. Deathwing is the real strength of the army, maybe with a second detachment of RW for firepower and pressure.

[Blindhamster]

Mixed wing is a trap IMO. Greenwing is just vanilla SM with a situationally useful doctrine, Ravenwing is good but not durable enough to hold objectives. Deathwing is the real strength of the army, maybe with a second detachment of RW for firepower and pressure.

remember its an objective game, deathwings weakness is being slow, they'll struggle against faster oponents in the objective game. But adding ravenwing helps with that, as does limited "greenwing". The deathwing are tough as nails, good in a fight and hard to shift, so you drop them to where the fighting will be hardest, knowing the oponent will struggle to shift you. Then focus your ravenwing on outmaneuvering whilst the greenwing with long ranged fire can provide ranged support (and still be better than most other marines both at shooting and melee)

[WrathOfTheLion]

The obsec on the terminators and bikes are what really defines them differently. I think summarizing it as SM vs DA is accurate, because the way they work, they don't play like SM at all. Even SW, without following the codex much at all, hold to the paradigm of having troops like BC or GH, supported by heavy weapons, etc. Being able to field a Deathwing/Ravenwing army upends that paradigm of SM warfare.

 

I'm from mostly the other perspective, although I'll end up playing against them with my Lamenters at some point, so I have to do a little different thinking. Being mostly a DA player, that the RW/DW combine to make it difficult to counter is kind of the point, so I'm not of much help there.

 

The combos from mixing the different wings will depend. If they're pulling in Greenwing and Ravenwing, they're going to get diminishing returns from obsec on one of those, so they'll almost certainly trade it off of either the bikes or terminators and start fielding some normal troops.

 

Ravenwing definitely need to be hit in melee. They are not weak in melee, but their main defensive bonus is going to be from Jink.

Edited March 11, 2021 by WrathOfTheLion

[Blindhamster]

The obsec on the terminators and bikes are what really defines them differently. I think summarizing it as SM vs DA is accurate, because the way they work, they don't play like SM at all. Even SW, without following the codex much at all, hold to the paradigm of having troops like BC or GH, supported by heavy weapons, etc. Being able to field a Deathwing/Ravenwing army upends that paradigm of SM warfare.

 

I'm from mostly the other perspective, although I'll end up playing against them with my Lamenters at some point, so I have to do a little different thinking. Being mostly a DA player, that the RW/DW combine to make it difficult to counter is kind of the point, so I'm not of much help there.

indeed, the issue is that DA can do everything any other marine chapter does, but does it better - they'll do gunlines better than others thanks to +1 to hit if static, they are as good as space wolves when being charged as well which means they are a hard counter to melee armies - so they out shoot and often out melee melee armies. They have the best objective grabbers available to any marines and the toughest terminators (that happen to also be the best melee terminators to boot). Once things get properly back to normal and major tournaments are consistently happening, I'd be shocked if we don't see various coloured "dark angels" as for competitive players there really isn't a reason to play other chapters. DA even have typically better strats, the best marine psychic discipline and some of the best relics too. And for non competitive players their crusade rules are awesome without gimping them (I feel like they went WAY too hard on the death company rubbish in crusade for BA, whilst its characterful, its way too frequent and doesn't really match the lore at all - which is annoying when the point of crusade is to give more lore friendly games).

 

Anyway, yeah can't say it enough times. DA are just better, they get a lot compared to other chapters and are more capable in just about every phase than most chapters too. GW for sure went a bit too far with them, that said It's hard because this is also the "best" representation of the the wings GW have managed in 40k, making them feel unique and interesting. They just should have tried to make it a little more balanced is all.

[WrathOfTheLion]

When making the DA codex, it looks like for the first time ever, they had a clear vision of how that army is supposed to operate and work, and it benefited from it greatly. SW also had some good changes I think, I know I've played them, and their rules are no slouch either.

 

The current BA rules to me look like it's too much like the 8E ones. Whereas the 8E SW/DA ones were so bad, they had to be tossed out almost in entirety, the BA ones were iterated on, and I don't think it benefitted from it.

[Helias_Tancred]

... The issue with them is that assuming you build them as the intended mixed wing army, they don't really have weaknesses (other than MAYBE a couple CP lower, but thats made up for by them getting benefits in just about every phase compared to any other marine list ...

 

But as someone that also plays Dark Angels (but I haven't yet in 9th), I will say that even in 2k point games once you start going true combined arms with Battle Company, Deathwing, and Ravenwing units you really start to water down the power of your "kick ass units" like Deathwing and Ravenwing. Especially so in 9th with marines since point cost went up across the board. I'm not saying you're wrong, but a combined arms Dark Angel list that is more like how they really fight, that raw power gets thinned down a bit because you simply don't have enough Deathwing or Ravenwing.

[Blindhamster]

again, it's less about raw power, and more about lack of weeknesses/having strengths in all phases beyond what most marines can manage.