Tartarus Terminators, worth taking over Cataphractii?

[Lord Krungharr]

I've got 2 units of Cataphractiis already (plus 10 Tyrant Siege Terminators).  Was wondreing if I should mix it up for my next terminator installment and get some Tartarus ones?  They can run if needed, and Sweeping Advance.  That seems pretty good actually as if I'm not mistaken Astartes can be swept in combat in 30K can't they?  (haven't actually played yet but will soon).

 

Plus they kinda look neat, very sleek.  Not sure if I'd give them all lightning claws, but maybe just power weapons, a fist or two, and some combi-meltas.  I'd probably magnetize them too, the plastics are easy to do.

 

Or does the 4++ trump the Sweep?

[Mogsam]

Its horses for courses really.

 

You can go Tartoros if you want to be able to run, sweep or move quickly. Ok, they're 5++ which isn't as strong as 4++ but if you're going for combat they're much better.

 

Cataphractii are more resilient but obviously can't chase anyone down. That's a big issue if you're combat focused.

 

When I use my EC or WE ill use Tartoros as I want the aggression.

 

When I use my Salamanders or Nullificators I'll use Cataphractii as the charge isn't so important.

 

If you play TS then you can get 3++ terminators and never die!

[Lord Krungharr]

I've Iron Warriors, and because the shoulder pads looked so good, I converted my over 20 super old metal Obliterators into Cataphractii Terminators.  But I have 5 Sector Imperialis bases remaining, and I think I'll reserve them for a Tartaros unit.  And slap some magnetized combi weapons on some of my regular Cataphractiis.  The Tyrants are good though having missiles to launch when they deepstrike :D

 

Thanks for the input!  I was considering making an allied WE force too, some angry chainaxe wielding Tartaros guys would be sweet for that.

[Gorgoff]

First things first.

1. It's Tartaros. :P

2. Terminators can't Deep Strike without a ROW, special character or legion rule which allows them otherwise.

SInce you @lord krungharr plays IW just like me, we talk Perturabo, who allows that or the couple of RoW which do the same.

3. WE Terminators can't take Chainaxes. The Cataphractii poweraxe looks like a Chainaxe, though.

 

 

I've got 2 units of Cataphractiis already (plus 10 Tyrant Siege Terminators).  Was wondreing if I should mix it up for my next terminator installment and get some Tartarus ones?  They can run if needed, and Sweeping Advance.  That seems pretty good actually as if I'm not mistaken Astartes can be swept in combat in 30K can't they?  (haven't actually played yet but will soon).

 

Plus they kinda look neat, very sleek.  Not sure if I'd give them all lightning claws, but maybe just power weapons, a fist or two, and some combi-meltas.  I'd probably magnetize them too, the plastics are easy to do.

 

Or does the 4++ trump the Sweep?

 

Tartaros are great in Zine Mortalis games.

I use them like expansive tactical squads there, because they can run, which gives them an advantage over Cataphractii, they don't suffer of the "void" special rule in ZM and they can take Chain- and Powerfists to fight dreadnoughts and doors, which are a common sight in ZM.

Since you start with your army split in two in ZM I let Tartaros start and deep strike with Cataphractii later on what the can because I always play the zone Mortalis Assault RoW. That works very well.

 

In open battles they are obviously a little less appealing because they don't field a 4++, but they can run, which allows them to footslogg while Cataphractii has to be transported to get anywhere.

[Brofist]

I tend to feel that Tartaros have an edge in Zone Mortalis. Cataphracts probably have an edge in standard games. Both are definitely useful, but its up to you to decide how to run them, which is what makes the difference imo

[Lord Krungharr]

Seems like they're a good unit to have in the tool box.  If my local gamestore has some in stock I'll get a box tomorrow (gotta pick up an AoS book anyways).  Otherwise I'll put in an order.....and it might come in by the time I finish painting everything else.

 

My friend has a massive ZM table he built for an event he ran a couple years back at Adepticon.  I'm itching to play that soon!

[Varyn]

I’d personally avoid dual lightning claws, they’re pretty expensive and giving up your ranged weapon doesn’t feel like a great trade off. I usually go 2 chainfists, 2 powerfists, 1 power weapon in a unit of 5. Combi weapons are nice, particularly if you’re deep striking.

[Brofist]

Word. The dual claws are an actual trap choice- don't take em unless you really really feel like it. You're better off just getting another terminator.

[LameBeard]

Word. The dual claws are an actual trap choice- don't take em unless you really really feel like it. You're better off just getting another terminator.

This is what I suspected! My Problem is I have 10 cataphractii to build and 5 will have to be dual lightning claws. (It’s because they are the old resin models and the bits store only had lightning claws left)

[Mogsam]

I usually do terminators with:

 

1 powerfists and combi melta (or spear etc if specialist legion)

2 chainfists and combi melta

2 power weapons and combi bolter

 

In an anvillus. This makes them effective at killing a tank (or squadron of something) using the combi meltas and the chainfists means they can't be ignored.

 

They rarely survive but they will make the enemy have to respond.

 

I quite often do that load out on 3 units for my sky hunters. Hard to ignore 15 terminators in your face and deal with all the heavy bolters/plasma cannons.

[Lord Krungharr]

What about heavy flamers?  Anyone use those?  I am making a Vigilator, and having a big unit of Terminators Infiltrating and then Scouting with a couple heavy flamers gets them in range to use them, or if they get charged too.

[Brofist]

It depends on what you're hunting, which with terminators, usually means MEQ or TEQ. So I wouldn't rate the heavy flamer over something like a plasma blaster, personally.

[Bung]

What about heavy flamers? Anyone use those? I am making a Vigilator, and having a big unit of Terminators Infiltrating and then Scouting with a couple heavy flamers gets them in range to use them, or if they get charged too.

Can work if you add a few combi-flamers to get more hits for one round of shooting.

[LameBeard]

What about heavy flamers? Anyone use those? I am making a Vigilator, and having a big unit of Terminators Infiltrating and then Scouting with a couple heavy flamers gets them in range to use them, or if they get charged too.

Again, I have heavy flamers for my cataphractii I’m about to build, but probably a poor choice here because they can’t overwatch. Better for Tartaros I think. And better in Zone Mortalis. And the Tartaros ones look cool so do it. Magnets may also be your friend - see our discussion in 30k hobby chat.

 

Also - check other threads here. Are we sure a character can confer Infiltrate on a unit like this? I thought this was an exception because of when the character would join the unit.

[Techmarine Harkus]

I tend to feel that Tartaros have an edge in Zone Mortalis. Cataphracts probably have an edge in standard games. Both are definitely useful, but its up to you to decide how to run them, which is what makes the difference imo

 

100% agree on Tartaros in ZM games. 40mm bases somehow seem to make it harder to get where you're going in cramped spaces and running is huge in order to stand a chance of reaching an objective.

 

In normal games If I'm taking a land raider I'd got for cataphractii every time as the mobility is less of an issue. For foot slogging I generally prefer tartaros for the same reason; running. At the end of the day, (in my opinion,) if you're taking a lot of invulnerable saves you've got a problem regardless of 5++ or 4++. They both shine best where they can make use of their 2+ to just shrug off most of the damage that's inflicted.

[Gorgoff]

 

What about heavy flamers? Anyone use those? I am making a Vigilator, and having a big unit of Terminators Infiltrating and then Scouting with a couple heavy flamers gets them in range to use them, or if they get charged too.

Again, I have heavy flamers for my cataphractii I’m about to build, but probably a poor choice here because they can’t overwatch. Better for Tartaros I think. And better in Zone Mortalis. And the Tartaros ones look cool so do it. Magnets may also be your friend - see our discussion in 30k hobby chat.

 

Also - check other threads here. Are we sure a character can confer Infiltrate on a unit like this? I thought this was an exception because of when the character would join the unit.

Nope, you can't because you place infiltrators after everyone else was already placed and you can't join a unit before battle.

[Cris R]

So my primary legion is Blood Angels and I’ve got 12 Tartaros terminators with the following load outs:

- 2 with Power Axes and Plasma Blasters
- 5 with Chainfists and Combi Bolters
- 4 with Power Axes and Combi Bolters
- The Blood Angels Tartaros Praetor with a Combi-Bolter with a Volkite Charger and Blade of Perdition

These load outs allow me to build different configurations of five to ten Terminator squads for different purposes in ZM and regular games, including command ones if I’m using the Blood Angels Tartaros Preator as a Praetor or Delegatus. The Legion’s ability helps makes the axes hit harder while allowing me to save points for other parts of my list.

For standard games, I have a vehicle heavy list where I pop the Praetor and some Terminators into a Spartan. But I also have a Day of Revelation list where I use the Praetor model as a Warmonger and deep strike the Terminators in. The rest of the list meets the requirements, so this is a nice way to vary up my DoR lists where I normally run Dawnbreakers in the elite slot. Also, the Warmonger is one of the best Tartaros consul options. You get an Iron Halo for the 4+ invulnerable save, Digital Lasers, and the Deep Striking ability, making them hardier and more flexible if you need a non-MoTL consul.

Edited March 14, 2021 by Cris R

[Lord Krungharr]

Aw crud, thought a Vigilator could sneak a unit up like that. What good is he then? Just with units already having infiltrate then? What about just for a Scout move?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Aw crud, thought a Vigilator could sneak a unit up like that. What good is he then? Just with units already having infiltrate then? What about just for a Scout move?

The scout move is pretty much the thing. There's an old combo of vigilator+seekers out of a transport to burn down their target.

[Gorgoff]

Aw crud, thought a Vigilator could sneak a unit up like that. What good is he then? Just with units already having infiltrate then? What about just for a Scout move?

 

 

 

Aw crud, thought a Vigilator could sneak a unit up like that. What good is he then? Just with units already having infiltrate then? What about just for a Scout move?

The scout move is pretty much the thing. There's an old combo of vigilator+seekers out of a transport to burn down their target.

 

This.

I may add that the scout "move" is not really a move.

Just read it up when your rulebook arrives @Lord Krungharr.

[Claws and Effect]

Twin lightning claws is worth it if you're playing Raven Guard, since any model that can take claws can upgrade them to Raven's Talons for +10 points.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Twin lightning claws is worth it if you're playing Raven Guard, since any model that can take claws can upgrade them to Raven's Talons for +10 points.

That's a terrible point investment. You're compounding the core problem of lightning claws in that they cost way too much; power weapons are free for terminators, why is shred worth 5pts or shred and an extra attack 15pts on str 4 ap3? Adding another 10 to give master crafted and rending results in the most expensive terminator squad possible; it's cheaper to go combis and chain fists with infinitely better results.

[Claws and Effect]

 

Twin lightning claws is worth it if you're playing Raven Guard, since any model that can take claws can upgrade them to Raven's Talons for +10 points.

That's a terrible point investment. You're compounding the core problem of lightning claws in that they cost way too much; power weapons are free for terminators, why is shred worth 5pts or shred and an extra attack 15pts on str 4 ap3? Adding another 10 to give master crafted and rending results in the most expensive terminator squad possible; it's cheaper to go combis and chain fists with infinitely better results.

Sure it's cheaper and more effective, if you totally ignore what the Legion in question would actually use.

 

Raven Guard have always been fond of lightning claws to the point of being the only Legion has has special ones. And since the Raven Guard have fewer Legion specific things than most Legions I use what little we get as often as I can.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

Twin lightning claws is worth it if you're playing Raven Guard, since any model that can take claws can upgrade them to Raven's Talons for +10 points.

That's a terrible point investment. You're compounding the core problem of lightning claws in that they cost way too much; power weapons are free for terminators, why is shred worth 5pts or shred and an extra attack 15pts on str 4 ap3? Adding another 10 to give master crafted and rending results in the most expensive terminator squad possible; it's cheaper to go combis and chain fists with infinitely better results.

Sure it's cheaper and more effective, if you totally ignore what the Legion in question would actually use.

 

Raven Guard have always been fond of lightning claws to the point of being the only Legion has has special ones. And since the Raven Guard have fewer Legion specific things than most Legions I use what little we get as often as I can.

My guy, it's a space marine legion; they'd use everything at their disposal. And the raven guard were particularly well supplied as kiavahr was basically a small forgeworld, so they'd have everything they need to function as a legion. They have special lightning claws; so do space wolves, who's are more properly costed at 5pts over a combi bolter instead of 15 over a power sword and are paired with a chainfist to result in a well rounded, useful build.

 

And that brings us to the point that rules matter in a tactica; what are the gameplay merits of taking X over Y? Is it rules combinations? Is it point costs? Is it list role? It's not interpretation of the fluff, that's for sure.