Playing against yourself

[Miek]

I tried playing against myself yesterday after seeing someone mention it on Reddit, and I really enjoyed it and learned a lot. We've been in pretty much total confinement since October and although tabletop simulator is great, it still doesn't feel quite right to me. I had never tried playing solo but I'm glad I did.

I played a 500 points game, necrons (my main army) vs Nurgle chaos demons (using necrons as proxies; currently working on 3d models for pestilens space skavens). On thing I was "afraid" of was that it would be hard to really focus on the current faction and see the other faction as the opponent, but it really felt natural.

It also forces you to think about how you would counteract your own strategies and secondary objectives.

One thing that was rather hard was handling stratagems for both factions; I ended up playing without those. It might be doable with cheat sheets but just using the books is too much IMHO.

Anyways, thought I'd share and hopefully convince someone to give it a try. I'm sure glad I saw that post on Reddit, and I'll probably play again this evening or the day after.

P.s.: It ended 70/41 in favor of the necrons (played second).

Edit, the T-Rex is a soulgrinder, courtesy of my eldest daughter (4 years old):

Edited March 8, 2021 by Miek

[Brother Tyler]

Note that I've moved this to Amicus Aedes because it's not really "tactica" and is about solo gaming, which is more general interest.

 

I'm surprised that your thought process going in was that it would be easy to (and I'm paraphrasing quite deliberately) play each side to win. Personally, I would think the opposite - that most players would have a favorite faction and would play that one more effectively while sub-optimizing the other faction. I think it's great that you were able to play each side to the best of your ability.

 

What recommendations do you have for other players that are thinking about this? Would it be easier/better to use smaller forces - perhaps a Kill Team or Combat Patrol? How would you tweak rules/procedures to improve game play?

[Wulf Vengis]

Interest piqued...

[ThePenitentOne]

I have considered playing through both sides of a session to advance the narrative in a campaign when I had battles that needed to be fought for the sake of the story and no one who was interested in playing them. I haven't had to do it yet, but I would consider it if the situation came up.

 

In 2008, I played a 2k Sisters vs IG and split it over 2 days to reshoot every turn for stop motion. All together I think it was 1100 shots; we did 3 frames / second- not enough shots to go with higher FPS because micro moves were so tedious. I'd micro move a kill team or a combat patrol, but not a whole Onslaught army. I had it put together- it was five minutes long or so. Then the hard drive crashed and I lost everything.

 

I mention this in relation to the topic because stop motion is the thing that really makes me consider playing against myself. I definitely want to do stop motion videos for some of the Saint Katherine's Aegis battles, but moving models an 1/8 of an each at a time and including pauses, pivots for spotting and creating a sense of asynchronicity of movement across each squad is a lot to ask of all but the most obsessive opponents.

 

It will always look like a cheesy little project- models aren't posable, and there are base issues- but 10 FPS is a lot easier on the eye than 3.

[Ahzek451]

I've done it many times to get some practice. In my experience with it, while clearly not an exercise in facing someone...not yourself, it was a fantastic practice in learning the rules and opening a rulebook as it forces you to crack open to different army books at once. And while you are playing an internal mental game of always knowing what the "enemy" is going to do, that is not necessarily a bad thing either as it pits you against the optimal decisions. 

That last bit, heh, with the caveat that you don't have some sort of bias to one side.  

 

Overall, what I got out if it the most was learning the books. The rules and where to find them. 

[Brother Tyler]

I've used the solo play method in the past primarily for learning, notably with skirmish level games (e.g., Shadow War: Armageddon, Kill Team, etc.). The ability to play without the constraints of time (i.e., I can take as much time as I want/need without worrying about being unfair to my opponent) allowed me to learn the rules more effectively. Playing to win with each side was the key, but things like interrupt actions (i.e., anything a player can do during the other player's turn) were challenging, causing a sort of second guessing loop.

 

Something I found to be highly effective was to physically change position when switching sides. It was both a physical and intellectual transition to the other side's point of view.

[Miek]

@Brother Tyler 1/2: Thanks for moving the topic. I think I am playing both sides to the best of my ability, but after two games I see the I'm having trouble getting the daemons to win. I think it's mostly because I'm learning to play the faction though. I play 500 points games but that's mostly because that's what I'm assuming for the Skaven themed chaos daemons army I'm working on. Still, it's a great format to learn the rules, your factions, etc.

 

@ThePenitentOne: That's too bad... After loosing years of photos because a hard drive crashed, I decided to setup automated nightly backups to a remote server. Now I can't loose more than 24h of date, whatever happens. I would really like to see your stop motions.

 

@Ahzek451: One thing that sightly worries me is that I'm learning to play each side better against a very specific list. It'll likely lead to overfitting my strategies. Since necrons seem to have the upper hand, I might solve that by playing random Necron lists instead of always the same one. It would be both a handicap and a nice way to try new things out.

 

@Brother Tyler 2/2: I try to keep my turns short; my games in person tend to be too lengthy so I'm trying to play faster but not poorly. But you're right, that would really allow one to play over a few evenings.

 

For my third game, I've decided to start using stratagems. I have a one page cheat sheet per faction, based on their current list, and it doesn't look so bad once you get the hang of the rest (rules, datasheets, etc.). I think the deepstrike stratagem is going to help the skavens (chaos demons), we'll see.

[ThePenitentOne]

 

@ThePenitentOne: That's too bad... After loosing years of photos because a hard drive crashed, I decided to setup automated nightly backups to a remote server. Now I can't loose more than 24h of date, whatever happens. I would really like to see your stop motions.

 

 

 

Hopefully I will have another one up by the end of March. The Chronicles of Saint Katherine's Aegis is finally moving (link is in my Sig if you're curious). I couldn't post stop motion on the first battle because so much was unpainted, it would have looked terrible. But March's CoSKA battles should use painted minis only, so I think I should be able to do it right.

 

In April, CoSKA will be shifting its narrative focus to Commoragh for a game or two while the nascent GSC lies low back in Realspace.

[Slave to Darkness]

I always play against myself, great way of learning the rules and new armies. Soon Ill be playing a game of 1st ed to familiarise myself with the rules again Squats vs Emperors Children. I may even get some pictures and do a little bat rep. 

[Doghouse]

Say Hi Paul showcases this style of play on his youtube channel if you are looking for ideas.

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYmJCc4_yMMUZieLvarybxg/videos

[ThePenitentOne]

I always play against myself, great way of learning the rules and new armies. Soon Ill be playing a game of 1st ed to familiarise myself with the rules again Squats vs Emperors Children. I may even get some pictures and do a little bat rep. 

 

That would be cool. Your Rogue Trader revisited is super cool.

[Bryan Blaire]

I think that your motivation in playing is really going to be what works against the bias - if you are playing the game to have one side win, then there will definitely be a bias for you, but if you are playing to best learn the rules for each faction, learn its Stratagems and when to use them, etc., then your bias is no longer in play with regards to a faction, because the situation is now about you, not the sides of the game. Same with the idea you stated (Crix) of playing your best against the last turn, regardless of who took that turn - if that is your motivation, then you don't have to worry as much about bias.

[Miek]

I've just played my third game solo (still necrons vs Nurgle daemons at 500 points, this time with stratagems) and Nurgle finally won!

 

I find that I really do root for both sides and try to play either to the best of my capabilities, and it comes quite naturally (to my surprise). I thought it was going to be an issue, but it just isn't.

[battle captain corpus]

Most new versions of the game I’ve played very small solo mode matches just to get my head around the rules. I can rarely pick up a rule book and just recognise changes, I need to see them played through. Good for you bud!

 

BCC

[ThePenitentOne]

The trouble with playing CoSKA solo is that I often DO have a desired outcome for each battle. I design scenarios so that a perfect finish for either team is almost impossible, but that the narrative can progress based on moderate success. For example, in the first game of the saga, up to 8 Genestealers could have escaped, but the scenario was designed to make that almost impossible. Similarly, the Marines might have been able to prevent any Genestealers from escaping, but the scenario was designed to make that almost impossible too.

 

In the end, 4 Stealers escaped. I was hoping for 6- that would have left me with a minimum sized brood after the Patriarch begins to evolve.

 

Three models is very small for a First Brood, but I always said I wanted the story to flow from the games, and 3 is what I got. So 3 it is.

[Miek]

Next game will be with randomly generated lists (with the help of my generator http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366293-w40k-army-list-generator/):

 

 

Elite:

 - 1 Beast of Nurgle (35 pts)

Fast_Attack:

 - 1 Plague Drones (105 pts)

HQ:

 - 1 Spoilpox Scrivener (100 pts)

 - 1 Daemon Prince of Chaos (150 pts)

Troop:

 - 10 Plaguebearers (90 pts)

 

Total: 480

 

...vs...

 

Fast_Attack:

 - 3 Canoptek Wraith (105 pts)

HQ:

 - 1 Catacomb Command Barge (145 pts)

Heavy_Support:

 - 1 Lokhust Heavy Destroyer (70 pts)

 - 1 Lokhust Heavy Destroyer (70 pts)

Troop:

 - 5 Immortal (85 pts)

 

Total: 475

 

---

 

Should be entertaining :)

 

P.s.: That's the basic output of the generator. I usually generate 3 lists, choose one of them, and complete if with additional models, relics, dynasty, etc. to get the final list. No unit substitution however, and the generator returns lists that cannot possibly take another entry (i.e.: unit) based on the provided constraints (ex.: combat patrol, the content of my collection, etc.).

[Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch]

I’m still betting on the Necrons taking this fight, Miek :P . Double H-D, CCB, and wraiths make for some absolutely terrifying destructive potential (not to mention fairly tough).

 

I eagerly await the results (and may decide to utilize your generator for some PvE myself at some point).

[Valkyrion]

Slightly off topic due to it not being current, but Codex Angels of Death in 2nd Edition inadvertently gave pseudo solo play rules for the death company.

If the Death Company was without a chaplain then they would move their normal movement in a random direction (scatter dice), or they would charge if within charge range.

 

I only bring this up because you could do something similar to generate a bit of unpredictability. e.g, you play as your nurgle, but you roll on a table for each Necron unit to see what it would do - for example, Necron warriors would either move towards an objective if not already there, or they would shoot. Skorpekhs would move towards either a) the nearest unit, or b) the weakest unit or even c) the strongest unit and attempt a charge where possible

 

It's not ideal, but it takes the decision out of your hands, you don't know what exactly is going to happen, and allows you to focus on your own faction, throwing up things that you might not account for because you wouldn't do it yourself, like charging the immortals into the daemon prince. 

[Miek]

I’m still betting on the Necrons taking this fight, Miek :P . Double H-D, CCB, and wraiths make for some absolutely terrifying destructive potential (not to mention fairly tough).

 

I eagerly await the results (and may decide to utilize your generator for some PvE myself at some point).

It was completely one sided; the necrons were annihilating the daemons and I stopped on their second turn (only played the daemons once, no point continuing).

 

But I love the generator for necrons, let me know if you give it a try (preferably in the associated topic). I'm using it again tomorrow against a beginning (on TTS).

[Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch]

Let me guess, the immortals mowed down the poxwalkers, the heavy destroyers did some sniping, and then the wraiths and CCB crashed into the Daemons and obliterated whatever they touched. :P

[Miek]

Hahaha that pretty much sums it up.