Any reasonable chance we’ll see a non cult-legion codex?

[Sarvis]

So far we’ve seen two of the four cult legions’ respective codices and ranges, it’s reasonable to assume we see the other two (hopefully) sooner rather than later. Anyone think it’s likely we’d see one for the likes of Iron Warriors or Night Lords? I for one doubt it, but I’d like to hear other opinions! Edited March 9, 2021 by Sarvis

[Sarvis]

Also, apologies if I screw up my formatting. My first post!

[Special Officer Doofy]

I doubt it, chaos only has a fraction of the playerbase that loyalist do. I would like the 4 cult Legions in their own books and the rest in a codex together. Give the codex Legions their own units (like I play DG and I can't take obliterators and such) and give them at least one character each, like the loyalist got. That would be cool. But again, not enough people play chaos for GW to invest heavily in them like loyalist marines.

[Tokugawa]

Make 1 or 2 new plastic character models, one upgrade sprue, print some decent rules, then the player base of this chapter would be growing. That is how loyalist chapter supplements work.

 

But GW did one thing before that:

Refresh almost all the product range of common marine units, with new plastic models.

[Sarvis]

I doubt it, chaos only has a fraction of the playerbase that loyalist do. I would like the 4 cult Legions in their own books and the rest in a codex together. Give the codex Legions their own units (like I play DG and I can't take obliterators and such) and give them at least one character each, like the loyalist got. That would be cool. But again, not enough people play chaos for GW to invest heavily in them like loyalist marines.

Are chaos marines truly that far behind loyalists in purchases? I can believe it, but I can’t quite understand why. At any rate, like I said I agree with you, but I can imagine something like plastic Night Lords terror troops selling very well, if GW were to make a move of something like that.

[Sarvis]

Make 1 or 2 new plastic character models, one upgrade sprue, print some decent rules, then the player base of this chapter would be growing. That is how loyalist chapter supplements work.

 

But GW did one thing before that:

Refresh almost all the product range of common marine units, with new plastic models.

I completely agree. Of course loyal marines are selling like nuts, they get a new kit every month. I’d bet almost any faction would sell close to as well with that level of support. Maybe we’ll get there some day

[Tokugawa]

AFAIK, the plastic plaguemarine models is a big reason which introduce players to start playing DG. Impressive image, high-quality detail. Although almost never a no.1 competitive choice, DG players still buy it.

 

At the same time, some ancient garbage kits is the biggest handicap for players which want to start some Chaos legions. Bad models-->don't sell-->GW don't have high priority for refresh models of this faction-->still don't sell. A vicious spiral.

[Special Officer Doofy]

 

I doubt it, chaos only has a fraction of the playerbase that loyalist do. I would like the 4 cult Legions in their own books and the rest in a codex together. Give the codex Legions their own units (like I play DG and I can't take obliterators and such) and give them at least one character each, like the loyalist got. That would be cool. But again, not enough people play chaos for GW to invest heavily in them like loyalist marines.

Are chaos marines truly that far behind loyalists in purchases? I can believe it, but I can’t quite understand why. At any rate, like I said I agree with you, but I can imagine something like plastic Night Lords terror troops selling very well, if GW were to make a move of something like that.

Recently chaos sales have been okay, they had that 1/2 range refresh (love the models btw), some new units, and they had model of the year for 4/5 of the past years (magnus, Mortarion, new retro noise marine and abaddon). I'm sure the new be'lakor's model will win it this year (unless a primarch comes out before christmas). So chaos in general is doing okay.

 

But the sales are way behind compared to loyalist. Alot of loyalist players will collect chaos as a second army or project, but some of the marine players are dedicated. When the indomitus box came out, I saw a couple guys on this forum talking about buying multiple boxes because they have 4 different chapters they play. And Primaris marines are a new unit, replacing tactical marines, where as the new chaos marines are the same unit, just better scale and detail.

 

The rules were pretty bad for chaos marines in 8th, which didn't help. Even if some sweet looking night lord terror troops do come out, I would think it is not enough to make someone jump into an entire faction/army for it. Remember, most of the main codex chapters in the loyalist book don't have special units short of characters. If loyalist are not getting the love like that, then I doubt chaos would.

 

Mind you I only play chaos, would never collect imperium models. Chaos ones are just too cool. I main DG, started some nurgle daemons, and I got two chaos space marines start collecting boxes and that decimation battle box for Christmas (I needed gift ideas). So I would LOVE for some chaos love and the same supplement treatment as loyalist got, I just don't think the numbers are there for GW to jump in. Even more so now that they are tracking stuff better with the new my Warhammer account and merging of accounts, I think it will show them where they want to invest in. What I imagine they will do over the next few years (maybe over 5) for chaos is make fulgrim and angron, separate codexes for them with new bezerkers and noise marines (with new ranges from as small or smaller as 1k sons got or as large as death guard got), replace a few more kits like bikers and raptors, and at most do a special character for each legion remaining in the codex. That's me being optimistic.

Edited March 9, 2021 by Putrid Choir

[battle captain corpus]

I think it is far more likely that these kinds of factions, such as Crimson Slaughter, Night Lords etc will get a White Dwarf Index article with warlord traits etc. That’s where I’d place my bucks if I was betting.

 

BCC

[Sarvis]

 

 

I doubt it, chaos only has a fraction of the playerbase that loyalist do. I would like the 4 cult Legions in their own books and the rest in a codex together. Give the codex Legions their own units (like I play DG and I can't take obliterators and such) and give them at least one character each, like the loyalist got. That would be cool. But again, not enough people play chaos for GW to invest heavily in them like loyalist marines.

Are chaos marines truly that far behind loyalists in purchases? I can believe it, but I can’t quite understand why. At any rate, like I said I agree with you, but I can imagine something like plastic Night Lords terror troops selling very well, if GW were to make a move of something like that.

Recently chaos sales have been okay, they had that 1/2 range refresh (love the models btw), some new units, and they had model of the year for 4/5 of the past years (magnus, Mortarion, new retro noise marine and abaddon). I'm sure the new be'lakor's model will win it this year (unless a primarch comes out before christmas). So chaos in general is doing okay.

 

But the sales are way behind compared to loyalist. Alot of loyalist players will collect chaos as a second army or project, but some of the marine players are dedicated. When the indomitus box came out, I saw a couple guys on this forum talking about buying multiple boxes because they have 4 different chapters they play. And Primaris marines are a new unit, replacing tactical marines, where as the new chaos marines are the same unit, just better scale and detail.

 

The rules were pretty bad for chaos marines in 8th, which didn't help. Even if some sweet looking night lord terror troops do come out, I would think it is not enough to make someone jump into an entire faction/army for it. Remember, most of the main codex chapters in the loyalist book don't have special units short of characters. If loyalist are not getting the love like that, then I doubt chaos would.

 

Mind you I only play chaos, would never collect imperium models. Chaos ones are just too cool. I main DG, started some nurgle daemons, and I got two chaos space marines start collecting boxes and that decimation battle box for Christmas (I needed gift ideas). So I would LOVE for some chaos love and the same supplement treatment as loyalist got, I just don't think the numbers are there for GW to jump in. Even more so now that they are tracking stuff better with the new my Warhammer account and merging of accounts, I think it will show them where they want to invest in. What I imagine they will do over the next few years (maybe over 5) for chaos is make fulgrim and angron, separate codexes for them with new bezerkers and noise marines (with new ranges from as small or smaller as 1k sons got or as large as death guard got), replace a few more kits like bikers and raptors, and at most do a special character for each legion remaining in the codex. That's me being optimistic.

Your comment comparing non-cult legions with codex compliant chapters resonated with me. That makes sense. If 40k imperial fists aren’t getting breachers, it’s a long shot that iron Warriors will (example).

 

It’s just strange watching AoS getting approximately 2-3 NEW armies a year(!), yet seeing so much potential in the chaos range (EC, WE, Lost & the Damned, True Mechanicum, etc.) and xenos(won’t get into that). Watching AoS have multiple new beautiful model ranges dropped multiple times a year is disheartening when there is already so much easy and fantastic inspiration for several chaos ranges that many have been begging for for years

[Tokugawa]

Question: which case is a TSons player more afraid of?

 

1. No TSons release in a long time.

2. A 9th TSons release is coming soon this summer, but when the pre-order starts, he find every new unit in the new codex, is made of AOS cross-game tzaangor models.

[Sarvis]

Question: which case is a TSons player more afraid of?

 

1. No TSons release in a long time.

2. A 9th TSons release is coming soon this summer, but when the pre-order starts, he find every new unit in the new codex, is made of AOS cross-game tzaangor models.

Goats for the goat god..?

[Special Officer Doofy]

Your comment comparing non-cult legions with codex compliant chapters resonated with me. That makes sense. If 40k imperial fists aren’t getting breachers, it’s a long shot that iron Warriors will (example).

 

It’s just strange watching AoS getting approximately 2-3 NEW armies a year(!), yet seeing so much potential in the chaos range (EC, WE, Lost & the Damned, True Mechanicum, etc.) and xenos(won’t get into that). Watching AoS have multiple new beautiful model ranges dropped multiple times a year is disheartening when there is already so much easy and fantastic inspiration for several chaos ranges that many have been begging for for years

Hahaha I love that you refer them as True Mechanicum rather than Dark Mechanicum. I think they will do WE and EC eventually. Time will tell!

Edited March 9, 2021 by Putrid Choir

[Schurge]

I think it is highly likely we will get something other then core and cult codices but I doubt it will be anytime soon. In 7th we got Crimson Slaughter & Black Legion Supplements and a Daemonkin Codex. In 8th we got a general supplement that supported a bunch of non-cult Legions and a Fabius Bile codex. In all cases, it was towards the end of the editions lifespan.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Individual supplements for each Legion?  Highly doubtful.  Another combined-Legion supplement like Faith & Fury or Traitor Legions from...6th?  7th? Edition...I can definitely see that.

[Marshal Loss]

Yeah I agree with IFF. We are virtually guaranteed at minimum a "Traitor Legions" supplement to replace the content we lose from Faith & Fury, which will no longer be extant when the 9th ed CSM book comes out, but individual Legion supplements may be a bridge too far. Not sure what will happen with Renegades from Vigilus Ablaze.

 

Upgrade sprues for some of the more popular Legions would probably sell quite well but who knows if GW will go down that route. Either way, there's nothing to fear re: Legion rules - GW knows how popular they are, and they'll return in some form. Just don't expect a dedicated supplement for e.g. Night Lords as we haven't seen GW invest that much into any faction other than loyalist marines in recent years.

 

That being said, if anybody is going to get that treatment other than them, it'll be us.

Edited March 9, 2021 by Marshal Loss

[techsoldaten]

 

Recently chaos sales have been okay, they had that 1/2 range refresh (love the models btw), some new units, and they had model of the year for 4/5 of the past years (magnus, Mortarion, new retro noise marine and abaddon). I'm sure the new be'lakor's model will win it this year (unless a primarch comes out before christmas). So chaos in general is doing okay.

 

But the sales are way behind compared to loyalist. Alot of loyalist players will collect chaos as a second army or project, but some of the marine players are dedicated. When the indomitus box came out, I saw a couple guys on this forum talking about buying multiple boxes because they have 4 different chapters they play. And Primaris marines are a new unit, replacing tactical marines, where as the new chaos marines are the same unit, just better scale and detail.

 

Curious - can you point to a source for sales figures on factions in 40k?

[Special Officer Doofy]

Not for a global scale, no. Locally they sell like hot cakes and upgrade sprues don't ever get a chance to sit on the shelf and are always on backorder. What's easier to do is search 40k factions by popularity, look at all of different sites and polls. I wouldn't use this site as a main reference, obviously it leans heavy into loyalist marines because that's what the site started as, which is why there is about 30,000 space marine posts to chaos's 8,500. Most have loyalist to traitor Legions in a 2 to 1 ratio. And the fact that loyalist had, and are still going through a complete range refresh with new units (not just new models of old units) and individual supplements and upgrade sprues for each founding chapter supports the fact that those sales seem the most profitable. Chaos space marines in just about every popularity poll come in second after marines though.

 

I know popularity doesn't directly translate into sales, but it is the easiest accessible information, and leads to the largest chance of sale. Most people won't buy stuff that they don't collect (baring conversion fodder and those pure hobbiest that buy stuff just for the painting side). But for example, my FLGS does track their sales. They have sold more salamander upgrade sprues alone than they have chaos space marine kits (the troop box) AND the start collecting combined.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Putrid Choir

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

I dont get any sense of what GW is trying to do with chaos marines.  They dont appear to have a plan.  They did release a nice model refresh but all those new kits were not new models/units and they had rules lower than trash tier.  6 months later loyalist marines got new models and rules that were absurd.  Iron Hands chapter tactic rules were better than all the chaos legion traits combined.  I keep seeing GW released all these nice HH novels featuring traitor marines and chaos taint but they never follow up with hyped model releases and spicy rules.  The time is so ripe for a bigass chaos marine release.  If they spent a half year putting out chaos vs imperial box set releases and a primarch release for xmas they would make a trillion dollars. 

 

Something like this...

 

Spring 2021, Chaos Space Marines codex. 

 

Summer to Fall, Marine vs Chaos Marines.  Every 3 weeks 2 new supplements come out for marines and chaos in a VS format. 

 

Ultramarines vs Word Bears, new possessed kit, new UM character (phobos Telion?)  

Imperial Fists vs Iron Warriors, new warpsmith,defiler.  

Iron Hands vs Emperors Children.  New noise marines.  

White Scars vs Red Corsairs, New Huron Blackheart.  Primaris Kor'Sarro on a bike.  

Raven Guard vs Alpha Legion.  ??  something cool.

Black Templars vs World Eaters.  Primaris Helbrecht.  New zerker kit.  

Salamanders vs Night Lords.  

 

Xmas 2021.  Black Legion supplement with a new daemon prince kit.  Abaddon in the fluff tries to summon Khorne into real space and is stopped by the Lion.  (my fluff owns)

new primarch release, the Lion.  

 

Now that looks like a plan.  I'd be shocked if we got 1 new kit in 2021.    

[Lucerne]

We'd be unrealistically lucky to get one character each, an upgrade kit that's shoulderpads with etched transfers and a few heads for like 20 USD a sprue for each legion, and a slapdash supplement.

 

Expect nothing and you'll rarely be disappointed as a non-cult Legion fan. It's not like we're playing loyalist Primaris, after all.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Lucerne

[Xenith]

Sorry, this goes into a stream of consciousness/rant. 

 

I doubt it, chaos only has a fraction of the playerbase that loyalist do. 

 

Only since 2016 potentially. When Chaos had good rules and marines bad, 60% of game groups and tourneys were Chaos. I'd say a lot of people, myself included, have chaos armies somewhere, just waiting for a decent ruleset. Marines just are ever present now due to massive model and rule support. GW has listened to the playerbases wallets in the past with the 6th ed Legions book, and untold riches lie in the direction of making each Chaos player buy a second £17.50 supplement on the back of a £30 general codex. 

 

Marine players often have 2-4 armies of them because of GW's push since 4th ed to make them more interesting and diverse. They became what the unique chaos legions were, power armour with character, while at the same time all flavour, heart and soul was stripped from CSM with the Gav-dex (curse it's name).

 

We saw the massive spike in share price GW got due to the reception of the Chaos rereleases is 2019 (12% for what, 2 plastic modular kits, Abaddon and a Stargate?), they can easily do this again.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

We saw the massive spike in share price GW got due to the reception of the Chaos rereleases is 2019 (12% for what, 2 plastic modular kits, Abaddon and a Stargate?), they can easily do this again.

 

I don't think this is an obviously conclusion you can draw from a rise in GWs share price.  Especially not when your reason is something as muted as the release of 2 new kits of old models for chaos marines

[MegaVolt87]

GW could see the same return on CSM as SM, however seem unwilling to make the effort. I think they have made themselves too fat from the low hanging fruit that is SM sales to bother doing much for us now in comparison. Do you buy the new stuff to encourage more investment later from GW or don't out of protest? Appears to them we are happy because we are buying, no changes needed. Or no further support because low sales. Its looking grim, we don't have any CSM fanatics in the design studio I guess. I'm expecting more great models no one wants to buy into seriously because our rules will remain sub par. I want to be wrong about that and eat my hat instead.

[Goreshed]

If anything I'd have to agree with the overall theme that GW would probably lump all of the non-cult armies into one singular dex if they aren't just simply kept within the bounds of the regular CSM dex. Space Marines are the poster child and since the days of 4th GW has consistently shown that they wish to keep it that way, which means greater model range support as well as rules (hence why Marine players are almost always buying codexs twice as often as we do with just our regular codex, let alone adding in any sort of supplement). Do we have a long wish list? Of course we do, we are after all the salty legions of old. Has GW shown us that they can in fact put out excellent models when they do devote the time to us? I'd say that's a resounding yes compared to a lot of the older sculpts. Will they keep us on pace with the poster child? Unless there is a large shake up within the development and leadership teams of GW I wouldn't count on it.

 

=][= Non 40k removed =][= BCC

Edited March 13, 2021 by battle captain corpus

[Sarvis]

My thoughts are optimistic for chaos (and xenos) in the long term. Fantasy’s reboot to AoS and the overhaul of pretty much every army is coming for us. It’s actually already started. I see primaris as the stormcast equivalent, and death guard as... nighthaunt? GW will in the next years will get to all the existing 40k factions, if this doesn’t happen I’ll eat my abbadon model.

=][= Non 40K removed =][= BCC

Loyal marines are almost done, and I’d bet money we have shiny models coming our way soon

Edited March 13, 2021 by battle captain corpus