My Custodes Vs. Death Guard Revelations

[Prot]

So I had a really fun, but difficult game vs. Death Guard.

My list is basically very similar from game to game. I am using Praetors just to have some movement, but the bulk of points is in Allarus (Dreadhost) and I use 1 Telemon right now because I love the model.

Anyway, I was going to do a full battle report but I just don't have the time. I do want to skim over the game and just show a picture of a mid game:

So I've marked off the deployment zones and the center of the board. It's a bit difficult to make units out but these are the basic notes:

- Death Guard went second. No Mortarion, just TONS of Obsec, and Deathshroud with 2 Plagueburst crawlers and Blightlords.

- His first turn is quiet... mostly the big shots from the Plagueburst crawlers and 2 mower drones.

- Facing these Death Guard with my Ultra's/Scars I know that I need to segregate his army in pieces before getting too aggressive, but aside from the Drones, He's clumping up, using lots of Poxwalkers to block me out of his zone.

- At the point of this picture, I know I've lost. I'm a good 12-15 points behind on the score, and he owns the mid with lots of Blightlords. His Deathshroud are about to deep strike deep in my zone where I have a squad of 3 Custodians. Not great.

- I'm about to lose the Telemon to continual bombardments from Plagueburst crawlers and 'flamers' from Troops and I finally lose the Telemon to a high end flamer from the BlightSpawn which came in off reserves with 15ish Poxwalkers.

Here's something rather embarrassing from the Shield Captain on Dawneagle and his Praetor Squad:

- So what's going on above happened over 3 turns! I climbed onto what we called "dense terrain" with the above mentioned units. I managed to kill a mower Foetid Drone, however in his turn he gets off a multi charge with that drone AND 15 Poxwalkrs.

- I cannot kill the poxwalkers... just can't with the remaining Virtus bike and the Shield Captain. In hindsight I should have sucked it up, and left close combat and given the DG a turn to shoot me down. This was embarrassing and an incredible waste of a LOT of points.

- My Telemon managed to clear some marines out but honestly at T7 (affected by auras) and just died a slow, but extremely tanky death. (My opponent thought the Telemon was a waste. I don't hear that often.)

- Bottom of T3 I decide I have to make a move. He is simply sitting in 3 quarters, and holding mid for the 5 th marker which is giving him "hold More". I put the Allarus in play with the banner strat. Boom... I hit like a truck but that's it, he hits back and I FINALLY see a light at the end of the tunnel.

- He is forced to get his HQ's more involved. I have bottom of T5 so I'm pushing for scoring now but basically I'm losing on all fronts. I can't push him back, Poxwalkers are VERY hard for custodes to get rid of. The marines are 2 wounds, ignoring 1 damage which really makes almost every hand held weapon my army has somewhat useless. In mass, the effect is I have to shoot him twice as much as any other marine army to get a kill.

- I am forced to answer with Trajann Valoris. He charges in, and bounced off of his Lord with that crappy Watcher's Axe. Then he retaliates with some relic that forces 5 mortals on Trajann then easily finished Trajann with his plague weapon.

- I am further forced to finally leave CC with my last Virtus Praetor with 1 wound, and my Shield Captain on bike. They are fairly useless at this point and the Captain dies trying to wait a turn (after retreating) and trying to steal one of his home objectives. The 3++ re-rollable doesn't hold and he's dead.

- Telemon is gone as well so I've lost that entire flank. My Shield Custodians do hold on for one turn before the last Deathshroud cleaves the squad dead. (I'm T4 of course, and can't negate his damage like he does to me.)

- End game I do everything I can and actually make it a 10 point loss. It was much worse in T3 but the "advantage" of going last in T5 isn't near enough to flip this horror show.

Post game thoughts/conclusions.

- My opponent really thought the Telemon was a waste of a lot of points. Funny thing is I wanted to take 2! But I had to agree. Perhaps this is the worst possible match up for them?

- I've always hated "D3" damage but never has it felt so incredibly lethargic as with this match up. Also being T4 on most units, T7 on the Telemon... wow is that hard to deal with.

- Ironically I would say the massive amount of Obsec troops was the best way the Death Guard could build this list. I would have rather faced mort and just axed him down or something and he would have had a LOT less models on the table.

- The Virtus Praetors felt really bad in this match up. I had 2 Salvo's on the squad and a hurricane (so I could use the strat better on the damage). Getting stuck in with poxwalkers really made me realize how affected this unit is by 9th (removing move/shoot for fly- unable to charge with spears makes them bad as well.)

- I also really did not like my Venatarii. I really wanted to like them but my last 3 games I would say they are easily the most removable unit in my army.

- I'm trying to figure out if I get rid of the Telemon, and go to town with more Allarus? Unfortunately the Tanglefoot doesn't work on Death guard, but the stun Ballista grenade strat still gets very good mileage and may have been the difference maker.

- My concern with adding a second squad of Allarus is the loss of the Telemon. He is a decent unit in my opinion but his cost is probably a little too high, however he did absorb a metric ton of firepower by halving damage, reducing damage by 1, and having an invuln.

- Virtus Praetor aren't in high favour right now. I realize this, but against great Obsec armies like this, how are you moving around the board?

Any thoughts on this match up?

[ApulianAbaddon]

Post game thoughts/conclusions.

 

- My opponent really thought the Telemon was a waste of a lot of points. Funny thing is I wanted to take 2! But I had to agree. Perhaps this is the worst possible match up for them?

 

- I've always hated "D3" damage but never has it felt so incredibly lethargic as with this match up.  Also being T4 on most units, T7 on the Telemon... wow is that hard to deal with.

 

- Ironically I would say the massive amount of Obsec troops was the best way the Death Guard could build this list. I would have rather faced mort and just axed him down or something and he would have had a LOT less models on the table.

 

- The Virtus Praetors felt really bad in this match up. I had 2 Salvo's on the squad and a hurricane (so I could use the strat better on the damage). Getting stuck in with poxwalkers really made me realize how affected this unit is by 9th (removing move/shoot for fly- unable to charge with spears makes them bad as well.)

 

- I also really did not like my Venatarii. I really wanted to like them but my last 3 games I would say they are easily the most removable unit in my army.

 

- I'm trying to figure out if I get rid of the Telemon, and go to town with more Allarus? Unfortunately the Tanglefoot doesn't work on Death guard, but the stun Ballista grenade strat still gets very good mileage and may have been the difference maker.

 

- My concern with adding a second squad of Allarus is the loss of the Telemon. He is a decent unit in my opinion but his cost is probably a little too high, however he did absorb a metric ton of firepower by halving damage, reducing damage by 1, and having an invuln.

 

- Virtus Praetor aren't in high favour right now. I realize this, but against great Obsec armies like this, how are you moving around the board?

 

Any thoughts on this match up?

 

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I played a couple of games and had the same impressions.

Custodes tend to play on grinding which is better done by the Death Guard.

 

I don't have any real suggestion, I just found that the Telemon is too expensive, at 270 points (I use fist/arachnus) doesn't deal enough damage while certainly being a very hard target. 

Also, I wouldn't use the Jetbike captain for the same reason, the deals d3 dmg at strenght 6 which isn't really that much compared to marines and other armies.

 

So I would spare these points and switch to something more points efficient like Galatus or Achillus dreadnoughts

[Prot]

Thanks. I find that DG being better at that grind as you put it is quite annoying. 
 

what about the Venatarii? Are you liking them?
 

I guess I feel I have to keep virtues praetors in or the army is just too slow but I will have to consider replacing the Telemon with something. 

[Ulfast]

Im totally afraid of the new DG. They seems scary as powerful. I actually don´t know how to stop them yet. 

[INKS]

Edit: Everyone seems to take Shadow Keepers as well.

 

Not sure if this helps but I like running 2 of these.

 

This is my preferred way of running a Telemon:

 

Telemon Heavy Dreadnought, Arachnus Storm Cannon, Telemon Caestus, -1 cp Eternal Penitent 275

[Prot]

Im totally afraid of the new DG. They seems scary as powerful. I actually don´t know how to stop them yet. 

 

They are tremendously anti-Custodes in a lot of ways. Access to mortals, large wound pool, T5, lots of anti CC units and aura's. -1 Damage.

 

Basically all the small arms firepower a Custodes player has access to will 1. Have more trouble wounding a DG army than any other marine army and 2. Have to have successful wounds go through armour with twice the volume to have the same results as another marine army (this is based on all those base 2 wound spear/axe shots and Hurricanes vs. T5/-1 D)

 

Then you get close to them and all those D3 weapons just start to feel woefully inadequate. Also being "T4" against the DG feels like a strong tilt in their favour. You have to really pick and choose your match ups.

 

Edit: Everyone seems to take Shadow Keepers as well.

 

Not sure if this helps but I like running 2 of these.

 

This is my preferred way of running a Telemon:

 

Telemon Heavy Dreadnought, Arachnus Storm Cannon, Telemon Caestus, -1 cp Eternal Penitent 275

 

I know Shadow Keepers is big competitively right now, but I'm not sure why. I know I have considered Shadow Keepers instead of Dreadhost but for specific reasons:

 

I think Shadow Keepers relics/WL trait might help a lot more with hunting those characters that are causing tremendous issues against Custodes. As more people turn towards "hero hammer" and new rules give these units even more power, and attacks, Shadow Keepers might give Custodes a chance to hunt those psykers, Daemon Princes, etc.

 

The problem with this (imo) is lethargic damage. You can only take so many relics/WL traits and to be quite honest the Custode Relics (for the most part) look very ordinary in a 9th ed setting.

 

I think Dreadhost with a flat 3 Damage Axe Captain might be a strong way to pep up my Dreadhost.

 

Conversely I'm thinking of a Shadow Keeper Biker captain with the relic/WL trait might be able to live a lot longer with Blood Games, and not rely SO heavily on hiding all game.

 

++++++++++++++++++

 

On the Telemon; I've been playing 1 or 2 Telemons for months on and off. I just feel like it's not productive enough on all comers lists.

[Tokugawa]

How could Telemon the worst unit against DG? It almost waste 0% damage output against DG's -1dmg. Arachnus has AP-2 dmg1 which exactly send a DG terminator to its 4+ isv, and if you bring the melee weapon, flat dmg4 exactly kill a DG terminator in one hit.

[INKS]

Also, I recently seen a list vs Ultramarines that took 3 Telemons. Might seem like too many but it did pretty well.

 

 

I think this is why they use Shadow Keepers on Telemon 

 

Grim Responibility goes in a different direction but it’s a good one – for 1CP you give incoming attacks against a unit -1S for a phase. Yet another very powerful defensive buff is still extremely welcome, and while it’s often redundant with Arcane Genetic Alchemy on a single unit, being able to buff two at once is actively great. Note: as some readers have pointed out, this is especially great on T7 vehicles as it changes the maths on several very common weapon strengths.

 

 

Edit: Lockwarden on a bike captain as you said is also a popular choice.

[Prot]

How could Telemon the worst unit against DG? It almost waste 0% damage output against DG's -1dmg. Arachnus has AP-2 dmg1 which exactly send a DG terminator to its 4+ isv, and if you bring the melee weapon, flat dmg4 exactly kill a DG terminator in one hit.

 

I did not say it was 'the worst'. 

 

You have to understand in this particular game my opponent did not take Mortarion, so his ability to fill the table top with bodies was paramount to success. He went first, and had 3 larger units of Poxwalkers. 2-3 squads of Plague marines (all over 5 men) and a squad of Blightlords and 2 mower drones.

 

This resulted in him having the ability to pinch me in a bit deeper than I wanted, and I said my mistake was not being more aggressive with the Allarus.

 

However at this point I was trying to squeeze the large Telemon base around a corner, and I managed to tag one squad of Plaguemarines. This was great. The plague marines were nearly dead in one round of CC however, the Telemon was almost dead at this point too (Bombardment strat? Something to do with mortal wounds from focusing the Plagueburst crawler.)

 

The problem with having one true vehicle is it takes all the firepower. The advantage of having one true vehicle is it gets all of the defensive strats. In the end, the Telemon could not stand up to all of it.

 

The Allarus performed far better than I anticipated. The ability to remove AP, re-rolls, etc, even for only 1 turn is huge against an army like that. Again, I should have been more aggressive with them.

 

But all of the above being true, it still leaves me with one heck of a slow army that has a LOT of trouble penetrating all those bodies with -1 damage and overall T5. Not to mention I did not have the firepower to take down all those poxwalkers. 

 

Honestly I had great difficulty with shooting priority. I needed to start denting Plaguemarines, but the shooting was lethargic against them. Yet I needed to start widdling down the plethora of poxwalkers plugging the board up.

 

The bikes had the best shot of hopping models, and picking their fight. I need more than a minimum squad though.

 

I have to be honest with myself too and NOT make this an 'anti-deathguard' list since it is meant to practice for tournament season.

 

Also, I recently seen a list vs Ultramarines that took 3 Telemons. Might seem like too many but it did pretty well.

 

 

I think this is why they use Shadow Keepers on Telemon 

 

Grim Responibility goes in a different direction but it’s a good one – for 1CP you give incoming attacks against a unit -1S for a phase. Yet another very powerful defensive buff is still extremely welcome, and while it’s often redundant with Arcane Genetic Alchemy on a single unit, being able to buff two at once is actively great. Note: as some readers have pointed out, this is especially great on T7 vehicles as it changes the maths on several very common weapon strengths.

 

 

Edit: Lockwarden on a bike captain as you said is also a popular choice.

 

I do understand Grim Responsibility, but I'm not seeing it as being potent in this case. By T2 his -1 T aura is nearly wherever he wants it. So I reduce the strength of a Plagueburst Mortar? To make it wound on 4's instead of 3's? 

 

I find more value in halving all damage coming in, rounding up, then lowering the damage by one with the inherent Dread ability for a single CP. To me that has a much, much larger impact over the course of a shooting phase. I could be wrong, but I also find the other problem here is we can start the game with VERY low CP if we aren't careful and using these strats requires you to be very selective or you find yourself with 1-2 CP after turn 1.

 

+++++++++++++++++

 

So there's 2 ways I can go about this:

 

- Stick to the Telemon, or even add a second one. Something has to go though and in this case it might have to be the Allarus but I really hate to do that since they were the superstars of the game.

 

- Remove the Telemons, concentrate on the two pronged approach of a mid board anvil of Allarus, and a second prong of 5 bikers or so and a biker Captain built to kill characters (ala Shadowkeepers).

 

With the Telemons in play they hog a ton of points. It forces them to perform quite well and deal a lot of damage because against something like Deathguard, trust me, your troops will do next to nothing.

 

Telemon(s) have been successful for me over the course of 9th edition, but this is one match up where I felt otherwise.

[Tokugawa]

Custodes don't have many "real tanks", but DG also don't have, usually just a pair of PBCs.

 

Custodes don't kill DG elite units efficiently(dmg d3 sux), but DG also don't kill Custodes quickly(flails are dmg2, most other DG good melee weapons are dmg1 only).

 

DG could bring some OKay medium range shooting, but Custodes also could have(sagittarum).

 

Comparing features one by one, it seems that DG would end as an inferior version of Custodes, unless....counting one thing:

 

POXWALKERS.

Custodes just don't have units doing the similar task, can't deal with it effectively, and may lose huge value during dealing with them(if the Custodes player made mistakes).

Edited March 20, 2021 by Tokugawa

[INKS]

It's a tough matchup. but I think it's winnable. 

[Prot]

It's a tough matchup. but I think it's winnable. 

 

Agreed. It's winnable. But I think DG might be the army that has had the largest impact on the way I think of building most of my armies. No other army has affected my choices like this or had this much of a negative impact on the functionality of the units. (I haven't played against new Dark Angels yet.)

[INKS]

Dark Angels who are DeathWing / Ravening or mostly Ravenwing is tough as well. Tough / Fast - lots of attack bikes.

[INKS]

I seen a list today that I thought was interesting. Apparently it does well into the "meta"

 

Shadowkeepers Strike Force

 

HQ: Shield Captain in Allarus Terminator Armor - Eagle's eye, Guardian spear, superior creation, ten thousand heros

 

Elites:

Allarus Custodians - x5

 

Contemptor - Achillus Dread - 2x Lastrum Storm Bolter x2

 

Contemptor - Galatus Dread

 

Prosecutors x4 - Sister Superior

 

Vexilus Prartor - Castellan Axe, Champion of the Imperium, Vexilla Magnifica, Warlord

 

Pallas Grav-Attack

 

Ventari Custodians x4

 

Telemon Heavy Dread - Arachnus storm cannon, eternal penitent, Telemon Caestus x2

 

 

thoughts?