Cris R Posted March 30, 2022 Share Posted March 30, 2022 (edited) You can totally run a Damocles in every game you want to? My blood angel opponent has certainly taken it and day of revelations in every game we've played lol. I’ve played a couple events where the rules restricted their use, so that’s what I’m thinking about. The other way to view the new version is that you can allot those points for the Damocles for another unit. Again, the new rule isn’t as good as the current one but there’s an interesting core there that needs a lot more work. This feels more like the rules that the DAs received in Crusade and I’m hoping the last round of testing worked it out. Otherwise, we’re relying on FAQs or a “Book of…” supplement to work it out. Edited March 30, 2022 by Cris R Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/369602-state-of-the-union-heresy/page/110/#findComment-5809877 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted March 30, 2022 Share Posted March 30, 2022 You can totally run a Damocles in every game you want to? My blood angel opponent has certainly taken it and day of revelations in every game we've played lol. I’ve played a couple events where the rules restricted their use, so that’s what I’m thinking about. The other way to view the new version is that you can allot those points for the Damocles for another unit. Again, the new rule isn’t as good as the current one but there’s an interesting core there that needs a lot more work. This feels more like the rules that the DAs received in Crusade and I’m hoping the last round of testing worked it out. Otherwise, we’re relying on FAQs or a “Book of…” supplement to work it out. Yea...I don't really consider fan limitations on army building. I'm not just bitter from the terrible heresy events I've experienced lol. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/369602-state-of-the-union-heresy/page/110/#findComment-5809878 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagoth Ur Posted March 30, 2022 Share Posted March 30, 2022 For Christ's sake I hope that the majority of these DA rules are not from the final product. Again with this objective nonsense with the Deathwing RoW. Brother Sutek and The Scorpion 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/369602-state-of-the-union-heresy/page/110/#findComment-5809879 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushman101 Posted March 30, 2022 Share Posted March 30, 2022 I think I'm at the point where I need to see the rules to get a sense of things. The legion rules just don't feel equal to each other in context to the rules as I know them. I'm also getting a sense that the rules are gonna be a bit more that just 'tweaked 7th edition'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/369602-state-of-the-union-heresy/page/110/#findComment-5809882 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cris R Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 Anyone have updates or leaks on Blackshields so far? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/369602-state-of-the-union-heresy/page/110/#findComment-5809892 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brofist Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 I've liked > 90% of what I've seen. Lots of great stuff that changes the game entirely. Here's one I don't, it hits home and I need to share my salt: Big guns and artillery are mostly gone with big nerfs to what's left. The trend is to encourage infantry and get rid of high AP templates. I think overall this is a good shift to the game. That said, vindicators and demolisher canons in particular are hit very hard. With the prevalence of re-rolling saves against blast, most blasts being AP3 or worse, smaller template sizes, and lots of 2W models I'd say this edition has swung maybe too hard against them. I'm pretty sad looking at vindicators knowing they'll be worse than in the current edition. Given the other cool new options idk how many we're gonna see. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/369602-state-of-the-union-heresy/page/110/#findComment-5809896 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omega-soul Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 I think any possibility of me revisiting HH has been dashed as blood angels seem worse and I bet sanguinius remains pretty poor tooRemains poor...? Sanguinius was an excellent primarch. He added synergy to jump units, unlocked FOC stuff and was able to fight an enormous amount of stuff. Mathematically he would break and sweep any marine unit he charged (that obviously doesn't have fearless or stubborn). I think he could clear out a 10 man brick of cataphractii for 2 wounds total? That's on top of him instant deathing every daemon, custodes, and mechanicum unit that tried to tarpit him with wounds. As I said, excellent. I do think the new day of revelation is terrible. The text is blurry, but it seems like your reserves come in starting on turn 2, compared to the previous 1. The deepstrike marker is cute, but really, a Damocles basically recreates both parts of the new benefit. Oh and no more bonus initiative on the charge, or cover on the deepstrike? Sanguinius lost almost all of them this time around and are replaced with different stuff: +1 WS on turn a unit arrives from Deep Strike Assault, one additional reaction, 1+ wound to your assault score (I.E. when you determine who won an assault) if within 6" of sanguinius. That's all he gives. So not a lot of synergy anymore. As an additional FYI, Crimson pallies aren't much different except they can now be up to 10 marines. Everything else is basically the same but run a bit differently since the special rules are all slightly different in how they function. They still have the bulky rule which means that you still need double the number of bodies to trigger the better FNP save. Oh, and Perdition weapons (Yes, multiple types) are less powerful but more plentiful. I wish to say so many words but I can't fit them in non-aggresive statement about rules-writing on a GW part. As if the last few years Horus heresy had a massive tournaments where BA nuked every other legion. I seriously can't justify such massive BA nerfs except someone's personal attitude/prejudice. Not to mention that 7.5th edition BA RoW was far from perfect. I really hope there will be changes to BA rules - otherwise it's just... dumb version of Dark angels or Night lords (as +1 to wound is now a popular bonus). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/369602-state-of-the-union-heresy/page/110/#findComment-5809898 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spagunk Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 (edited) It's fine. We're just not a Great legion, merely above average. We still haven't seen stage 3 traitor legions yet so everyone may be in the same boat. P.S. Perdition weapons are an upgrade for any "character" unit sub type. So even though it's a downgrade from previous version, it's a huge upgrade for every sergeant. Edited March 31, 2022 by Spagunk Brofist and Cris R 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/369602-state-of-the-union-heresy/page/110/#findComment-5809900 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noserenda Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 Ooof, artillery being largely ineffective against marines? And shellshock not even being present on most of them? Sounds like some pretty "bold" design choices right there...Agreed big templates could be a problem, but i dont think it was vindicators and arty that were the problem, more the giant flamers and S:D deletion blasts from super heavies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/369602-state-of-the-union-heresy/page/110/#findComment-5809903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 Ooof, artillery being largely ineffective against marines? And shellshock not even being present on most of them? Sounds like some pretty "bold" design choices right there... Agreed big templates could be a problem, but i dont think it was vindicators and arty that were the problem, more the giant flamers and S:D deletion blasts from super heavies. The big change was a push towards more infantry being present on the board and, as such, Artillery and Big Templates got hit the hardest since removing fistfuls of marines from 1 S10 AP2 7" blast (aka the Typhon) was not really fun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/369602-state-of-the-union-heresy/page/110/#findComment-5809905 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 I've liked > 90% of what I've seen. Lots of great stuff that changes the game entirely. Here's one I don't, it hits home and I need to share my salt: Big guns and artillery are mostly gone with big nerfs to what's left. The trend is to encourage infantry and get rid of high AP templates. I think overall this is a good shift to the game. That said, vindicators and demolisher canons in particular are hit very hard. With the prevalence of re-rolling saves against blast, most blasts being AP3 or worse, smaller template sizes, and lots of 2W models I'd say this edition has swung maybe too hard against them. I'm pretty sad looking at vindicators knowing they'll be worse than in the current edition. Given the other cool new options idk how many we're gonna see. I've been vocal for years in how strong I think barrage and artillery is. A lot of my unit analysis was influenced by the belief that pieces like the Scorpius, arquitor and medusa were too strong not to take, and warped unit selection as a result. But this is hard to adjust to. It really does explain why murderous strike is showing up in so many places in melee, because it's now very hard to bomb down your opponents multi wound or heavily armoured units. Early when I was looking at the salamander rules I was thinking "you know, the disembark-and-flame might actually work with the two wounds and saves and apothecary support, but I feel like there's something I'm missing. ... Oh yea, they'll just get blasted by barrage." Turns out, they won't. Turns out, you really want meltas in your army to hunt elite melee units and ensure they get mopped up. Brother Sutek 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/369602-state-of-the-union-heresy/page/110/#findComment-5809906 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesuVult Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 24" dreadhammer feels much too short. Demolisher also has a smaller template than quad launchers. I feel the artillery cannons as they are now are rhe second miss for me about the rules leaked so far. Brofist 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/369602-state-of-the-union-heresy/page/110/#findComment-5809908 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTrans Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 I've liked > 90% of what I've seen. Lots of great stuff that changes the game entirely. Here's one I don't, it hits home and I need to share my salt: Big guns and artillery are mostly gone with big nerfs to what's left. The trend is to encourage infantry and get rid of high AP templates. I think overall this is a good shift to the game. That said, vindicators and demolisher canons in particular are hit very hard. With the prevalence of re-rolling saves against blast, most blasts being AP3 or worse, smaller template sizes, and lots of 2W models I'd say this edition has swung maybe too hard against them. I'm pretty sad looking at vindicators knowing they'll be worse than in the current edition. Given the other cool new options idk how many we're gonna see. Probably the biggest take away and concern from that page, is good bye Legion Basilisk and Legion Medusa... Not ok with the whole sale stripping of units boys. Especially when its still available on the FW site. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/369602-state-of-the-union-heresy/page/110/#findComment-5809909 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brofist Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 (edited) Yeah, frankly given the other options I don't know why you'd want an old school vindicator. Its only niche is killing multi wound MEQ, but it's not gonna kill more than ~3 for the trouble and it can be tanked on sergeants. If it was still a 5" blast you could at least have volume of hits to deal with. FWIW the predator melta cannon is still blast 5" and Ap1 so it's not like they took all those sorts of weapons out of the game. Just super rare. Edited March 31, 2022 by Brofist Spagunk 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/369602-state-of-the-union-heresy/page/110/#findComment-5809910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesuVult Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 Losing medusas and basilisks, vindicators being rendered near pointless, and even typhons looking very questionable. I can understand wanting to do something about templates because of medusas but this seems like far too much. Brofist 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/369602-state-of-the-union-heresy/page/110/#findComment-5809911 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brofist Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 Yeah, I agree. It's a bit hard a swing in the other direction. These are still playtest rules, but I doubt we're going to see any major changes until it's been out in the wild for a while. Spagunk 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/369602-state-of-the-union-heresy/page/110/#findComment-5809913 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Hands Fanatic Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 Ooof some hard nerfs for Blood Angels there. Personally im not a big fan of defining what model of armour a given terminator unit is using, unless, like Gorgons, its a big part of what the unit is. Feels driven purely my commercial reasons. from looking at the various leaked terminator unit rules, I think the locking terminator armour type / separating out tartaros & cataphractii units is because of the following: * cataphractii and tartaros have different movement stats * cataphractii has the (Heavy) unit sub-type while tartaros does not (presumably encompassing some of the no running/ overwatch rules) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/369602-state-of-the-union-heresy/page/110/#findComment-5809915 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCore67 Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 Honestly biggest disappointment with the alleged DA rules is that unbroken vow is still based on objectives. I'll also be pretty upset if they get rid of the Firewing Cabal and Excindio (as the Firewing RoW seems to imply). The Scorpion and Brother Sutek 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/369602-state-of-the-union-heresy/page/110/#findComment-5809917 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkwrath121 Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 (edited) Honestly biggest disappointment with the alleged DA rules is that unbroken vow is still based on objectives. I'll also be pretty upset if they get rid of the Firewing Cabal and Excindio (as the Firewing RoW seems to imply).Both are gone, unfortunately, it seems. from looking at the various leaked terminator unit rules, I think the locking terminator armour type / separating out tartaros & cataphractii units is because of the following: * cataphractii and tartaros have different movement stats * cataphractii has the (Heavy) unit sub-type while tartaros does not (presumably encompassing some of the no running/ overwatch rules) Heavy lets you reroll armour saves, apparently. The new hardened armour. Breachers have the keyword too, so that tracks. Edited March 31, 2022 by Darkwrath121 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/369602-state-of-the-union-heresy/page/110/#findComment-5809921 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 GW- The game got cheaper, you need less vehicles! Community- Doesn't that mean I need to buy and paint a lot of infantry, so its not exactly cheaper? Won't games be longer because vehicles are not as deadly? GW- .... Community- oh and if vehicles are nerfed, why would I buy them even if they are plastic now? GW- .... Rejects of Anvilus, Cris R and Brother Sutek 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/369602-state-of-the-union-heresy/page/110/#findComment-5809922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaxom Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 But is it really what the First Legion is about? By speading the influence of the wings this much, the wings themselves become less relevant to the actual listbuilding, which is ironic (and soul crushing). These rules treat the wings as if they were one of the secret orders of the Legion, which they were not. They are not bad rules in and on themselves, but they are bad rules for the Dark Angels. I won't rehash over five years of posts, but short version: it seems like no one in FW and to a lesser degree in BL knew what to do with the Dark Angels. The Scorpion and Cactus 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/369602-state-of-the-union-heresy/page/110/#findComment-5809926 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkwrath121 Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 (edited) Alright. Serious question for those out there who theoretically may have seen the core rules. Is the Golden Keshig lance using the actual new unwieldy rule as listed in the core rules, or is it just using the same name rather than Cimbersome? Because power fists being unusable outside of the charge is rather silly. Edited March 31, 2022 by Darkwrath121 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/369602-state-of-the-union-heresy/page/110/#findComment-5809937 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 Alright. Serious question for those out there who theoretically may have seen the core rules. Is the Golden Keshig lance using the actual new unwieldy rule as listed in the core rules, or is it just using the same name rather than Cimbersome? Because power fists being unusable outside of the charge is rather silly. Its not how Unwieldy works for non-Golden Keshig units. Darkwrath121 and Aztek 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/369602-state-of-the-union-heresy/page/110/#findComment-5809939 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stix Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 (edited) Were there any rules leaked for IH RoW? Or Special Characters? Edited March 31, 2022 by Stix The Scorpion 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/369602-state-of-the-union-heresy/page/110/#findComment-5809943 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkwrath121 Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 (edited) Were there any rules leaked for IH RoW? Or Special Characters?Not yet. Bit of a patchwork for many legions currently Alright. Serious question for those out there who theoretically may have seen the core rules. Is the Golden Keshig lance using the actual new unwieldy rule as listed in the core rules, or is it just using the same name rather than Cimbersome? Because power fists being unusable outside of the charge is rather silly. Its not how Unwieldy works for non-Golden Keshig units.Thanks! That caused a bit of wariness Edited March 31, 2022 by Darkwrath121 Aztek 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/369602-state-of-the-union-heresy/page/110/#findComment-5809944 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts