State of the Union (Heresy)

[TheTrans]

90% of non-model special characters are gone, so I can't imagine that bodes well for IH. 

[Slips]

If anything is not within the initial Traitor vs Loyalist legions launch (be it books or whatever), we might still them see them pop up either down the road (because why not? Campaign books focused around 2-3 legions is a pretty good time to do it) or theyre probably coming in in like a 'legends' or 'index' format. If theyre in neither, welp, unfortunate.

[Bung]

Ooof some hard nerfs for Blood Angels there. Personally im not a big fan of defining what model of armour a given terminator unit is using, unless, like Gorgons, its a big part of what the unit is. Feels driven purely my commercial reasons.

You know that 3/4 of all special Terminators are locked into their Armour variant already and only a few can choose?

[The Scorpion]

Hmmm i dunno, i think id prefer DA wings to be rites of war rather than unit bonuses, mostly because im pretty sure several units will have a no brainer option for wing to the extent that said, all assault squads are ironwing (deliberately wrong choice for example :D ) unless you are fielding a RoW which always kinda sucks.

 

 

My exact thoughts.

[The Scorpion]

 

 

 

But is it really what the First Legion is about? By speading the influence of the wings this much, the wings themselves become less relevant to the actual listbuilding, which is ironic (and soul crushing). These rules treat the wings as if they were one of the secret orders of the Legion, which they were not.

They are not bad rules in and on themselves, but they are bad rules for the Dark Angels.

I won't rehash over five years of posts, but short version: it seems like no one in FW and to a lesser degree in BL knew what to do with the Dark Angels.

I actually like most of the fluff written for The First. (Stormwing travesty aside, of course. That one is just brain-damagedly stupid)

 

Their rules however? They feel written by someone who hasn't read much of the fluff. Someone who doesn't particulatly like, let alone "get" the Dark Angels.

[xxunphasedxx]

Is anyone else super disappointed in the Blood Angel stuff? World Eaters get chainaxes for free which essentially do what our trait does at all times and then they get their own legion trait on top of it. The blade of perdition stuff is cool but not exactly a buff I would say. And the rites of war are alright but not exactly stellar.

Unless they are planning on reworking the legion trait I don’t see myself bringing them out very much, my main opponent is World Eaters and his army will just do what I do but much better in every single way as of now.

Iron Hands faired better but the increase points to immortals, the limiting factor of bitter duty and the kick in the balls to company of bitter iron by removing hatred from all non-immortals has left a sour taste in my mouth. The vehicle upgrade for 50 points would have been great on a dread but is kinda lame on a tank. The warlord traits are also pretty lacklustre, a random d6 swing on death is lame and unreliable. the other ignoring negative effects one is okay but the inability to use movement reactions is not worth it. Overall, when compared to the other legions, they just seem a little bland to me.

Maybe I am overreacting on both accounts but I just had such high hopes for this edition as a long time veteran and so far I feel pretty disappointed in a bunch of what we are seeing. Hoping I am wrong.

 

I will say I am excited for Strength 14 Forgebreaker swings from Ferrus with exoshock 3 to auto penetrate some spartans and send them all the way to mars for repairs.

Edited March 31, 2022 by xxunphasedxx

[The Scorpion]

Is anyone else super disappointed in the Blood Angel stuff? World Eaters get chainaxes for free which essentially do what our trait does at all times and then they get their own legion trait on top of it. The blade of perdition stuff is cool but not exactly a buff I would say. And the rites of war are alright but not exactly stellar.

 

Unless they are planning on reworking the legion trait I don’t see myself bringing them out very much, my main opponent is World Eaters and his army will just do what I do but much better in every single way as of now.

I have the feeling that Blood Angels will fare better than people give'em credit for. They get things that the Khornate doofuses do not like Inferno pistols and assault cannons to crack vehicles open. Day of Revelation was nerfed, but Day of Sorrows was buffed and the restriction on vehicles was lifted. Crimson Paladins might get fixed after all this time. Like with Emperor's Children, there is more to Blood Angels than pure melee. Russ took a legion of savages and made them into warriors. Angron took a legion of warriors and turned them into savages. But Sanguinius? He took a legion of degenerates and made them into a host of angels.

 

http://i.4pcdn.org/tg/1648684841168.jpg

 

In other news, Grey Slayers are now their own unit. The tactical role of the old unit has been given to the new Grey Stalkers:

http://i.4pcdn.org/tg/1648683523317.png

 

Wolfbros, what do you think of this?

[DesuVult]

Is anyone else super disappointed in the Blood Angel stuff? World Eaters get chainaxes for free which essentially do what our trait does at all times and then they get their own legion trait on top of it. The blade of perdition stuff is cool but not exactly a buff I would say. And the rites of war are alright but not exactly stellar.

 

Unless they are planning on reworking the legion trait I don’t see myself bringing them out very much, my main opponent is World Eaters and his army will just do what I do but much better in every single way as of now.

 

Iron Hands faired better but the increase points to immortals, the limiting factor of bitter duty and the kick in the balls to company of bitter iron by removing hatred from all non-immortals has left a sour taste in my mouth. The vehicle upgrade for 50 points would have been great on a dread but is kinda lame on a tank. The warlord traits are also pretty lacklustre, a random d6 swing on death is lame and unreliable. the other ignoring negative effects one is okay but the inability to use movement reactions is not worth it. Overall, when compared to the other legions, they just seem a little bland to me.

 

Maybe I am overreacting on both accounts but I just had such high hopes for this edition as a long time veteran and so far I feel pretty disappointed in a bunch of what we are seeing. Hoping I am wrong.

 

I will say I am excited for Strength 14 Forgebreaker swings from Ferrus with exoshock 3 to auto penetrate some spartans and send them all the way to mars for repairs.

When the first leaks came out they were hit or miss for me, mostly okay but just wasn't a fan of some stuff like reactions.

 

Then the traitor leaks came out and I thought the game looked great. Everything looked fun and thematic but sufficiently balanced between factions I expected the game to be fun.

 

Everything since the traitor leaks feels like it has been going downhill. I felt like a ray of sunshine while I saw people complaining about SoH rules since I felt they were fine and the game looked fine. Now though I am growing increasingly wary. Things are coming together in a way I don't like the look of.

Edited March 31, 2022 by DesuVult

[Mogsam]

Err, where are the basilisk stats on that chart? I just bought several.

[xxunphasedxx]

Sorry for the double 

 

 

Is anyone else super disappointed in the Blood Angel stuff? World Eaters get chainaxes for free which essentially do what our trait does at all times and then they get their own legion trait on top of it. The blade of perdition stuff is cool but not exactly a buff I would say. And the rites of war are alright but not exactly stellar.

Unless they are planning on reworking the legion trait I don’t see myself bringing them out very much, my main opponent is World Eaters and his army will just do what I do but much better in every single way as of now.

I have the feeling that Blood Angels will fare better than people give'em credit for. They get things that the Khornate doofuses do not like Inferno pistols and assault cannons to crack vehicles open. Day of Revelation was nerfed, but Day of Sorrows was buffed and the restriction on vehicles was lifted. Crimson Paladins might get fixed after all this time. Like with Emperor's Children, there is more to Blood Angels than pure melee. Russ took a legion of savages and made them into warriors. Angron took a legion of warriors and turned them into savages. But Sanguinius? He took a legion of degenerates and made them into a host of angels.

 

Assault Cannon and inferno pistol spamming is something I really dont want to do with Blood Angels, they are supposed to be the Emperors finest when it comes to martial prowess and this edition really doesn't do them justice in the slightest. I have 7k of Blood Angels which is mostly jump infantry and flyer based, now my army is just going to get steam rolled by my opponents World Eaters who have everything I have and better. They do have assault cannons on dreads and melta guns on dudes, its not like Blood Angels had the market cornered on those. I am sure its not as bad as I think but its not sounding like its exactly going to be a fair fight like it was before.

[The Scorpion]

 

Is anyone else super disappointed in the Blood Angel stuff? World Eaters get chainaxes for free which essentially do what our trait does at all times and then they get their own legion trait on top of it. The blade of perdition stuff is cool but not exactly a buff I would say. And the rites of war are alright but not exactly stellar.

 

Unless they are planning on reworking the legion trait I don’t see myself bringing them out very much, my main opponent is World Eaters and his army will just do what I do but much better in every single way as of now.

 

Iron Hands faired better but the increase points to immortals, the limiting factor of bitter duty and the kick in the balls to company of bitter iron by removing hatred from all non-immortals has left a sour taste in my mouth. The vehicle upgrade for 50 points would have been great on a dread but is kinda lame on a tank. The warlord traits are also pretty lacklustre, a random d6 swing on death is lame and unreliable. the other ignoring negative effects one is okay but the inability to use movement reactions is not worth it. Overall, when compared to the other legions, they just seem a little bland to me.

 

Maybe I am overreacting on both accounts but I just had such high hopes for this edition as a long time veteran and so far I feel pretty disappointed in a bunch of what we are seeing. Hoping I am wrong.

 

I will say I am excited for Strength 14 Forgebreaker swings from Ferrus with exoshock 3 to auto penetrate some spartans and send them all the way to mars for repairs.

When the first leaks came out they were hit or miss for me, mostly okay but just wasn't a fan of some stuff like reactions.

 

Then the traitor leaks came out and I thought the game looked great. Everything looked fun and thematic but sufficiently balanced between factions I expected the game to be fun.

 

Everything since the traitor leaks feels like it has been going downhill. I felt like a ray of sunshine while I saw people complaining about SoH rules since I felt they were fine and the game looked fine. Now though I am growing increasingly wary. Things are coming together in a way I don't like the look of.

I'm the other way around. I dislike the Phase 1 rules and the way they are written. Like how generic Emperor's Children WT only gives +1WS to units within 12" that also pass a morale test, while the loyalist exclusive trait extends the same +1WS to the whole detachment and triggers without need of passing any test.

 

Phase 3 rules I mostly like, with the notable exeption of the Dark Angels.

[xxunphasedxx]

 

Is anyone else super disappointed in the Blood Angel stuff? World Eaters get chainaxes for free which essentially do what our trait does at all times and then they get their own legion trait on top of it. The blade of perdition stuff is cool but not exactly a buff I would say. And the rites of war are alright but not exactly stellar.

 

Unless they are planning on reworking the legion trait I don’t see myself bringing them out very much, my main opponent is World Eaters and his army will just do what I do but much better in every single way as of now.

 

Iron Hands faired better but the increase points to immortals, the limiting factor of bitter duty and the kick in the balls to company of bitter iron by removing hatred from all non-immortals has left a sour taste in my mouth. The vehicle upgrade for 50 points would have been great on a dread but is kinda lame on a tank. The warlord traits are also pretty lacklustre, a random d6 swing on death is lame and unreliable. the other ignoring negative effects one is okay but the inability to use movement reactions is not worth it. Overall, when compared to the other legions, they just seem a little bland to me.

 

Maybe I am overreacting on both accounts but I just had such high hopes for this edition as a long time veteran and so far I feel pretty disappointed in a bunch of what we are seeing. Hoping I am wrong.

 

I will say I am excited for Strength 14 Forgebreaker swings from Ferrus with exoshock 3 to auto penetrate some spartans and send them all the way to mars for repairs.

When the first leaks came out they were hit or miss for me, mostly okay but just wasn't a fan of some stuff like reactions.

 

Then the traitor leaks came out and I thought the game looked great. Everything looked fun and thematic but sufficiently balanced between factions I expected the game to be fun.

 

Everything since the traitor leaks feels like it has been going downhill. I felt like a ray of sunshine while I saw people complaining about SoH rules since I felt they were fine and the game looked fine. Now though I am growing increasingly wary. Things are coming together in a way I don't like the look of.

 

 

This EXACTLY, I also didn't know how to feel about reactions but then I really liked the look of the traitor stuff and was super excited to see what was in store for the loyalist's. When we finally got Loyalist leaks it gutted me, everything looked way more dialed back and bland compared to the fluffiness and theme the traitors stuff had going on. Really hope things change before the release, I will still play but I will always know that there was a secret edition with so much more flavour and fun that was never officially released.

[Astartes Consul]

I've liked > 90% of what I've seen. Lots of great stuff that changes the game entirely. Here's one I don't, it hits home and I need to share my salt:

 

 

Big guns and artillery are mostly gone with big nerfs to what's left.

 

The trend is to encourage infantry and get rid of high AP templates. I think overall this is a good shift to the game. That said, vindicators and demolisher canons in particular are hit very hard. With the prevalence of re-rolling saves against blast, most blasts being AP3 or worse, smaller template sizes, and lots of 2W models I'd say this edition has swung maybe too hard against them. I'm pretty sad looking at vindicators knowing they'll be worse than in the current edition. Given the other cool new options idk how many we're gonna see.

 

 

This looks like a major change of direction BUT, the lack of Scorpius / Whirlwind Launcher on this list makes me think that there is a separate type of artillery or indirect fire profile that we haven't seen yet??

 

 

 

 

Yeah, normally the force is supposed to pivot around the leadership of the wing that suits best. A formation is supposed to be mixed wing, at least according to the Lion El'Jonson novel and Book 9. The entire formation isn't mono-wing like how the Ravenwing and Deathwing might deploy in 40k.

Exactly. You said it. According to Lion novel (which to be fair, is good) and Book 9 (which is good exept for wings lore). Before this the wings had been formations akin to 40k precisely because they were meant as the origin of said formations.

Leave tactical flexibility to the Ultramarines, that's their thing and they do it better than the First. I wanted to see strategical flexibility, where the specialization is at army level, not squads. Hordes of marines in black armor, united in tactical purpose.

 

But it looks like I am alone in this. And I am starting to sound like the grogs at 4chan, which is not a good sign. Better keep searching for leaks.

 

The RoWs were posted like, immediately after the lions rules:

Rites of War:

 

The Serpent's Bane:

- Legion Seeker Squads as Troops

- Select three Priority Targets from Primarch, HQ, LoW, Elites. +1 to hit for Firewing units when targeting those Priority Targets or a unit that's been joined by the Priority Target (shooting and melee). If there's less than three, pick from anything,

- Firewing Characters (not just ICs, so incl. Sergeants) gain +1A in combat with a Priority Target

- Up to three Firewing Troops can gain Infiltrate

- All Troops must be Firewing

- +3VP to your opponent for each surviving Priority Target that is not falling back or pinned at the end of the battle

- WL must be Firewing or the Lion

 

The Seeker's Arrow:

- Sky Hunters and Outriders as troops

- Ravenwing ICs can be given Hit and Run for +35pts

- Ravenwing Cavalry and Infantry gain Outflank

- No vehicles that aren't Flyers, Skimmers, or Fast

- All troops and Fast Attack must be Ravenwing

- WL must be Ravenwing or the Lion

 

The Storm of War:

- Despoilers, Tacticals, and Assault Squads of at least 20 models can include a Centurion. He takes up no force org slots, cannot be the Warlord, is part of the unit and cannot leave it, cannot become a consul, and must be Stormwing.

- Despoilers, Tacticals, and Assault Squads can be selected as Elites

Assault Squads can be selected as FA; if they are FA, they have FNP(4+) when targeted by Overwatch or Interceptor

- All Tacticals, Despoilers, and Assault Squads must be Stormwing

- No Tacticals or Despoilers can take DTs

- No Deep Strike Assault, Subterranean Assault, or Flanking Assault

- WL must be Stormwing or the Lion

 

The Unbroken Vow:

- Tartaros Terminators, Cataphractii Terminators, and Veterans become Troops and gain Heart of the Legion (FNP6+ within 6" of an objective or +1 to existing FNP)

- +1 attack for Deathwing ICs within unknown distance of an objective

- After deployment, place an objective at the center of the battlefield or as close as possible; at the end of the battle, the opponent gains +1VP if you don't control it, or +d3 VP if they do

- All Cataphractii, Tartaros, or Veterans must be Deathwing

- WL must be Deathwing or the Lion

 

The Steel Fist:

- Predator Squadrons as troops

- Kratos Squadrons as Elites

- All Ironwing Infantry of 10 or less models can take a LR Proteus as DT, Spartan if more

- All Infantry must start embarked on a transport that is not a Flyer

- All Troops, Predators, and Kratos must be Ironwing

- No Deep Strike, Subterranean Assault, or Flanking Assault

- WL must be Ironwing or the Lion

 

The Eskaton Imperative:

- Destroyer Assault Squads, Mortalis Destroyer Squads, and Interemptors as troops

- Dreadwing get +1 to wound against units within Dangerous Terrain

- Dreadwing autopass Dangerous Terrain tests

- All Open Terrain outside of either player's DZ is Difficult, unless it's impassable, a fortification, a building, or already Dangerous

- You get up to some unknown number of Eskaton markers, which can be no larger than a 25mm base, to be placed anywhere not within 6" of a battlefield edge or either player's DZ; everything within some unknown distance of this Eskaton marker, including terrain pieces, is Dangerous Terrain

- The WL must be Dreadwing or the Lion

- No Fortifications

- If the enemy has any units outside their DZ that aren't pinned or falling back, they gain an unknown amount of VP

- All Troops, Destroyer Assault Squads, or Destroyer Mortalis Squads must be Dreadwing

 

 

These mostly seem like sensible updates, I think?

[Hfran Morkai]

Wolfbros, what do you think of this?

I'm so glad I hadn't gotten round to building too many infantry and hadn't painted any.

 

The "whole unit may take" is a little frustrating if it makes it into the actual launch as I had set up 3 packs of Slayers with 3 Bolters, 2 Combi-Weapons, 2 Power Swords, 2 Power Axes and Huscarl with stuff (a couple had another Bolter) for my Orbital Assault Troops as it made sense to give them a few more Bolter shots rather than just leave them with pistols. It'll make the WYSIWYG a bit annoying for me as I'll happily pay for the Bolters for the entire unit for my Drop Pod/Rhino packs but will still want some Power Weapons in there. GW need to release a bunch of sheathed axes and swords to use as Power Weapons.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Hfran Morkai

[Joe]

Err, where are the basilisk stats on that chart? I just bought several.

 

As far as I understand Legiones Astartes are losing Basilisks and Medusas.

[Doctor Perils]

Really struggling to decide if I want Beakie Word Bearers or Salamanders. There’s so few Salamanders players I feel like it’d be unique, but evil space warlocks is also dope.

Could do evil space warlocks as salamanders ;)

[Astartes Consul]

 

Err, where are the basilisk stats on that chart? I just bought several.

 

As far as I understand Legiones Astartes are losing Basilisks and Medusas.

 

 

What's the source on this? Because that is going to mess up a lot of lists...

 

Is anyone else super disappointed in the Blood Angel stuff? World Eaters get chainaxes for free which essentially do what our trait does at all times and then they get their own legion trait on top of it. The blade of perdition stuff is cool but not exactly a buff I would say. And the rites of war are alright but not exactly stellar.

 

Unless they are planning on reworking the legion trait I don’t see myself bringing them out very much, my main opponent is World Eaters and his army will just do what I do but much better in every single way as of now.

I have the feeling that Blood Angels will fare better than people give'em credit for. They get things that the Khornate doofuses do not like Inferno pistols and assault cannons to crack vehicles open. Day of Revelation was nerfed, but Day of Sorrows was buffed and the restriction on vehicles was lifted. Crimson Paladins might get fixed after all this time. Like with Emperor's Children, there is more to Blood Angels than pure melee. Russ took a legion of savages and made them into warriors. Angron took a legion of warriors and turned them into savages. But Sanguinius? He took a legion of degenerates and made them into a host of angels.

 

http://i.4pcdn.org/tg/1648684841168.jpg

 

In other news, Grey Slayers are now their own unit. The tactical role of the old unit has been given to the new Grey Stalkers:

http://i.4pcdn.org/tg/1648683523317.png

 

Wolfbros, what do you think of this?

 

 

Interesting to see the Artificer Armour option remaining on the Sergeant/Huscarl. There was quite a lot of chat about that no longer being an option?

[D3L]

 

 

Err, where are the basilisk stats on that chart? I just bought several.

 

As far as I understand Legiones Astartes are losing Basilisks and Medusas.

 

 

What's the source on this? Because that is going to mess up a lot of lists...

 

Wait until you find out all the other things we're loosing.... 

Edited March 31, 2022 by D3L

[Fallen11]

lol, what nonsense is this. There is no way they are just gonna remove rules for official models many have bought. There are even rules in that documents for guns, which are kinda dissapointing .

[Gore Crow]

 

Err, where are the basilisk stats on that chart? I just bought several.

 

As far as I understand Legiones Astartes are losing Basilisks and Medusas.

 

 

The IW Ironfire RoW in the leaks mentions Legion Basilisks and Medusas though

[D3L]

lol, what nonsense is this. There is no way they are just gonna remove rules for official models many have bought. There are even rules in that documents for guns, which are kinda dissapointing .

sorry to bear the news Frater, 

 

but that has never been the case with GW, things have regularly been cut between editions

 

I admit I myself am sad about Caestus/Dreads, but all the rumours do quite point out that despite being iconic, they're not present in the test documents

 

the flamestorm cannon is for the predator, so it would seem

 

there is an outside chance they have hoodwinked all the playtesters and leakers of course, but I have my doubts of GW pulling off even the smallest of subterfuges 

 

Edit: I like being proven right

 

 

 

Edited April 1, 2022 by D3L

[Gorgoff]

 

 

lol, what nonsense is this. There is no way they are just gonna remove rules for official models many have bought. There are even rules in that documents for guns, which are kinda dissapointing .

sorry to bear the news Frater,

 

but that has never been the case with GW, things have regularly been cut between editions

 

I admit I myself am sad about Caestus/Dreads, but all the rumours do quite point out that despite being iconic, they're not present in the test documents

 

the flamestorm cannon is for the predator, so it would seem

 

there is an outside chance they have hoodwinked all the playtesters and leakers of course, but I have my doubts of GW pulling off even the smallest of subterfuges

 

 

 

 

Or in fact all if these rules are made up nonsense. Wait till may I say.

[Brother Tholath]

If they are canning them, why would they be mentioned in the IW Rite of War?

I'm trying to catch up on all the leaks so please ignore me if they aren't in it!

[Astartes Consul]

 

 

 

Err, where are the basilisk stats on that chart? I just bought several.

 

As far as I understand Legiones Astartes are losing Basilisks and Medusas.

 

 

What's the source on this? Because that is going to mess up a lot of lists...

 

Wait until you find out all the other things we're loosing.... 

 

 

I mean you were going on about Cataphractii being removed the other day right? So I'm going to take your views with a little pinch of salt tbh.

[Mogsam]

I'd get the Caestus as it's been OOP for years, but IWs might be the most popular Legion and multiple copies of medusas are a frequently taken choice.

 

Without seeing the generic units, hard to say. I'm far more interested in the generic list than the Legion special units.