State of the Union (Heresy)

[D3L]

Who has these 400pg rules then? That dude should really spill the beans! I'd be suspicious if MangoPolo claims to have that! As non of the playtester have!

 

Meanwhile we've only seen these test documents that all linked in this thread and on imgur, if someones got proof non of these thing are missing, go right ahead and show the contents pg :-)

 

yeah there's a lot of naivety or a little silly going around to think those things listed, aren't gone

Edited March 31, 2022 by D3L

[Rejects of Anvilus]

 

So while I was generally agnostic about many of the changes so far, I just had a quick look at the 4K Stone Gauntlet Imperial Fist army I am just finishing painting to see how al the rumours would affect it if true, and now I am feeling quite glum. Changes that may be coming are:

 

Boxnaught with flamestorm is potentially gone.

Indomnitus terminators are potentially gone.

Caestus is potentially gone

Sicaran Arcus modeled without hatches as I didn’t want sponsons, now needs sponsons.

I had two 10 man breacher squads and a 15 man Warder squad for SG, now I need two Warder squads.

Typhon 7 inch template can just stay at home.

Plasma support squad not quite as effective. 

 

Soi think ever game with this army is going to start with me saying the boxnaught counts as a contemptor, the Indomnitus count as Tartaros, the Caestus counts as a StormEagle, the Sicaran has invisible sponsons, and the breachers count as warders. Nice and simple…

Stone Gauntlet can still be filled by 2x Breacher squads as troops, you aren't forced into taking Warders.

 

That would be one good thing then,  I was just going of the phase 3 sheet leak as that says Warders must be used for compulsory troops.

[Slips]

 

>Combatant Slain

If a Character involved in a Challenge is removed as a casualty, each excess Wound inflicted by the victor is counted toward the Assault result, but is not allocated to any other model. If the winning Character model has any remaining Attacks in the same or later Initiative steps, then these are resolved against the slain Character's WS and Toughness, but are only counted for the purposes of winning combat and are not Allocate to any other models. When one of the combatants in a Challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative step it is, the Challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the Phase for the purposes of Outside Forces.

 

Outside Forces

Whilst the Challenge is ongoing, other models locked in the combat can only Allocate Wounds to the models involved in the Challenge if all other enemy models (if any) that are locked in that combat have been removed as casualties.

An apparent change to how challenges work now; @skimask I guess this is a reason as to why you might want to accept a challenge from Sigismund if you're not already being forced to for whatever reason.

No?

 

Like it helps challenges have a point and went back to that fantasy overkill mechanic I mentioned.

 

But if anything, it makes you less likely to accept a challenge from Sigismund. Since each excess wound is counted for combat res and Sigismund has instant death, he can generate up to 15 wounds of combat res against a praetor, while forcing invul rerolls and possibly proccing his warlord trait. Unless you're rolling with a bodyguard of 3 wound models, you're basically guaranteeing a lost combat.

 

Maybe there was more to the challenge stuff you forgot to copy?

The way I read it is that if he kills whatever he's fighting in the first hit, he will then only generate an extra 3 wounds (4A base, if he kills on the 1st attack only 3 would essentially auto-convert) for Combat Resolution instead of whatever he's challenging's full found pool per attack beyond what killed his opponent.

 

And once his target dies, attacks from models outside the challenge can then be allocated to him if you want.

 

 

Who has these 400pg rules then? That dude should really spill the beans! I'd be suspicious if MangoPolo claims to have that! As non of the playtester have!

 

Meanwhile we've only seen these test documents that all linked in this thread and on imgur, if someones got proof non of these thing are missing, go right ahead and show the contents pg :-)

 

yeah there's a lot of naivety or a little silly going around to think those things listed, aren't gone

The main thing from stopping just people posting the leaks is legal liability because if the full doc goes out then everyone with initial access to it would probably be blanket held liable.

 

Also, my prediction of outside playtesting more or less going away as a result of these leaks (on top of the various 40k leaks) is very likely to happen now.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Slips

[dicebod]

 

 

 

>Combatant Slain

If a Character involved in a Challenge is removed as a casualty, each excess Wound inflicted by the victor is counted toward the Assault result, but is not allocated to any other model. If the winning Character model has any remaining Attacks in the same or later Initiative steps, then these are resolved against the slain Character's WS and Toughness, but are only counted for the purposes of winning combat and are not Allocate to any other models. When one of the combatants in a Challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative step it is, the Challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the Phase for the purposes of Outside Forces.

 

Outside Forces

Whilst the Challenge is ongoing, other models locked in the combat can only Allocate Wounds to the models involved in the Challenge if all other enemy models (if any) that are locked in that combat have been removed as casualties.

An apparent change to how challenges work now; @skimask I guess this is a reason as to why you might want to accept a challenge from Sigismund if you're not already being forced to for whatever reason.

No?

 

Like it helps challenges have a point and went back to that fantasy overkill mechanic I mentioned.

 

But if anything, it makes you less likely to accept a challenge from Sigismund. Since each excess wound is counted for combat res and Sigismund has instant death, he can generate up to 15 wounds of combat res against a praetor, while forcing invul rerolls and possibly proccing his warlord trait. Unless you're rolling with a bodyguard of 3 wound models, you're basically guaranteeing a lost combat.

 

Maybe there was more to the challenge stuff you forgot to copy?

 

The way I read it is that if he kills whatever he's fighting in the first hit, he will then only generate an extra 3 wounds (4A base, if he kills on the 1st attack only 3 would essentially auto-convert) for Combat Resolution instead of whatever he's challenging's full found pool per attack beyond what killed his opponent.

 

And once his target dies, attacks from models outside the challenge can then be allocated to him if you want.

 

 

This is not a change I particularly like if true. If anything it makes challenges worse because your probably high initiative character isn't killing more models before they get to swing and he has the exact same vulnerabilities as before. They better make the penalties for refusing a challenge more severe.

[Armillion]

So while I was generally agnostic about many of the changes so far, I just had a quick look at the 4K Stone Gauntlet Imperial Fist army I am just finishing painting to see how al the rumours would affect it if true, and now I am feeling quite glum. Changes that may be coming are:

 

Boxnaught with flamestorm is potentially gone.

Indomnitus terminators are potentially gone.

Caestus is potentially gone

Sicaran Arcus modeled without hatches as I didn’t want sponsons, now needs sponsons.

I had two 10 man breacher squads and a 15 man Warder squad for SG, now I need two Warder squads.

Typhon 7 inch template can just stay at home.

Plasma support squad not quite as effective. 

 

Soi think ever game with this army is going to start with me saying the boxnaught counts as a contemptor, the Indomnitus count as Tartaros, the Caestus counts as a StormEagle, the Sicaran has invisible sponsons, and the breachers count as warders. Nice and simple…

I can get behind the nerfing of demolisher cannon/Typhon AP2/AP1 to AP3+Rending, but the pie plate size nerf hurts.  REALLY concerned how this is gonna go with 2.0 Custodes when the demolisher is one of the only great equalizers in that regard if you are only clipping maybe 1 per turn and they likely will just tank it since its now AP3.

 

In the camp of wait and see for the final rules on what happens to my 2 flamestorm Boxnauts.

[DesuVult]

 

 

So while I was generally agnostic about many of the changes so far, I just had a quick look at the 4K Stone Gauntlet Imperial Fist army I am just finishing painting to see how al the rumours would affect it if true, and now I am feeling quite glum. Changes that may be coming are:

 

Boxnaught with flamestorm is potentially gone.

Indomnitus terminators are potentially gone.

Caestus is potentially gone

Sicaran Arcus modeled without hatches as I didn’t want sponsons, now needs sponsons.

I had two 10 man breacher squads and a 15 man Warder squad for SG, now I need two Warder squads.

Typhon 7 inch template can just stay at home.

Plasma support squad not quite as effective.

 

Soi think ever game with this army is going to start with me saying the boxnaught counts as a contemptor, the Indomnitus count as Tartaros, the Caestus counts as a StormEagle, the Sicaran has invisible sponsons, and the breachers count as warders. Nice and simple…

I can get behind the nerfing of demolisher cannon/Typhon AP2/AP1 to AP3+Rending, but the pie plate size nerf hurts. REALLY concerned how this is gonna go with 2.0 Custodes when the demolisher is one of the only great equalizers in that regard if you are only clipping maybe 1 per turn and they likely will just tank it since its now AP3.

 

In the camp of wait and see for the final rules on what happens to my 2 flamestorm Boxnauts.

I had pretty much the same thought on the nerfs. Large blast AP3 with rending on the vindicator would keep it scary without being a final answer on infantry. The typhon being just 24" feels quite bad since even at that range it's shot is pretty survivable for quite a bit.

[Taliesin]

 

ia sources on Faeit 212

Preorders for the first content are planned for May, release then in June.

 

Releases for June:

"Heta-Gladius" Launch Box: - £240

 

Rulebook - £43

 

Three Codex like compilation Books - £32.50 each

Loyalists

Traitors

Other Age of Darkness Armies - Loyalists and Traitors

 

I do wonder about these Codex books. For instance, will it have new lore and art? How big will they be?

 

I also wonder if some of the content that they worked on for Black Book 10, which was said to be partly about imperial agents and traitor agents, finds its way into that " Other Age of Darkness Armies"  book.

 

It would be nice if these were actually worth buying.

 

No word yet on that first Warzone Expansion book in those rumors though. Even though previous rumors ( which we can now say are correct) stated:

 

 

Black Books:

First "Warzone" Book

- Featuring the Legions of Imperial Fists and Blood Angels for loyalists 

and SoH and World Eaters for traitors, also Imperial Army

- Includes content before the Traitors entered the sol system

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

 

 

 

 

>Combatant Slain

If a Character involved in a Challenge is removed as a casualty, each excess Wound inflicted by the victor is counted toward the Assault result, but is not allocated to any other model. If the winning Character model has any remaining Attacks in the same or later Initiative steps, then these are resolved against the slain Character's WS and Toughness, but are only counted for the purposes of winning combat and are not Allocate to any other models. When one of the combatants in a Challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative step it is, the Challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the Phase for the purposes of Outside Forces.

 

Outside Forces

Whilst the Challenge is ongoing, other models locked in the combat can only Allocate Wounds to the models involved in the Challenge if all other enemy models (if any) that are locked in that combat have been removed as casualties.

An apparent change to how challenges work now; @skimask I guess this is a reason as to why you might want to accept a challenge from Sigismund if you're not already being forced to for whatever reason.

No?

 

Like it helps challenges have a point and went back to that fantasy overkill mechanic I mentioned.

 

But if anything, it makes you less likely to accept a challenge from Sigismund. Since each excess wound is counted for combat res and Sigismund has instant death, he can generate up to 15 wounds of combat res against a praetor, while forcing invul rerolls and possibly proccing his warlord trait. Unless you're rolling with a bodyguard of 3 wound models, you're basically guaranteeing a lost combat.

 

Maybe there was more to the challenge stuff you forgot to copy?

The way I read it is that if he kills whatever he's fighting in the first hit, he will then only generate an extra 3 wounds (4A base, if he kills on the 1st attack only 3 would essentially auto-convert) for Combat Resolution instead of whatever he's challenging's full found pool per attack beyond what killed his opponent.

 

And once his target dies, attacks from models outside the challenge can then be allocated to him if you want.

This is not a change I particularly like if true. If anything it makes challenges worse because your probably high initiative character isn't killing more models before they get to swing and he has the exact same vulnerabilities as before. They better make the penalties for refusing a challenge more severe.

Quoting both because I'm on the phone again.

 

@slips I guess it depends on the wording of instant death. Killing blow (fantasy's version of murderous strike) gave you the full wound amount for each instance. The current version of instant death says the target is reduced to 0 wounds; whether that reduction counts multiple times, or stays the same is the real question.

 

As to him being vulnerable after killing the target...not on the same turn:

 

"When one of the combatants in a Challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative step it is, the Challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the Phase for the purposes of Outside Forces."

 

So you can blast their praetor down with sevatar or sigismund, gain a maximum of between 21/15 (my guess on how instant death and challenges work) and 9/7 (your guess on the interaction) points of combat res from the challenge, and then be immune to the supporting guys for that round.

 

Still pretty good for the dominant challenger, and no reason to accept it. Why proc bonus effects and lose the chance to snipe the character?

[Marshal Rohr]

Interesting no mention of a pure Legion Book only traitors and loyalists

[WrathOfTheLion]

Like anything with prices, I'd take those with some massive grains of salt as far as being correct.

[Slips]

 

 

 

 

 

>Combatant Slain

If a Character involved in a Challenge is removed as a casualty, each excess Wound inflicted by the victor is counted toward the Assault result, but is not allocated to any other model. If the winning Character model has any remaining Attacks in the same or later Initiative steps, then these are resolved against the slain Character's WS and Toughness, but are only counted for the purposes of winning combat and are not Allocate to any other models. When one of the combatants in a Challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative step it is, the Challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the Phase for the purposes of Outside Forces.

 

Outside Forces

Whilst the Challenge is ongoing, other models locked in the combat can only Allocate Wounds to the models involved in the Challenge if all other enemy models (if any) that are locked in that combat have been removed as casualties.

An apparent change to how challenges work now; @skimask I guess this is a reason as to why you might want to accept a challenge from Sigismund if you're not already being forced to for whatever reason.

No?

 

Like it helps challenges have a point and went back to that fantasy overkill mechanic I mentioned.

 

But if anything, it makes you less likely to accept a challenge from Sigismund. Since each excess wound is counted for combat res and Sigismund has instant death, he can generate up to 15 wounds of combat res against a praetor, while forcing invul rerolls and possibly proccing his warlord trait. Unless you're rolling with a bodyguard of 3 wound models, you're basically guaranteeing a lost combat.

 

Maybe there was more to the challenge stuff you forgot to copy?

The way I read it is that if he kills whatever he's fighting in the first hit, he will then only generate an extra 3 wounds (4A base, if he kills on the 1st attack only 3 would essentially auto-convert) for Combat Resolution instead of whatever he's challenging's full found pool per attack beyond what killed his opponent.

 

And once his target dies, attacks from models outside the challenge can then be allocated to him if you want.

This is not a change I particularly like if true. If anything it makes challenges worse because your probably high initiative character isn't killing more models before they get to swing and he has the exact same vulnerabilities as before. They better make the penalties for refusing a challenge more severe.

Quoting both because I'm on the phone again.

 

@slips I guess it depends on the wording of instant death. Killing blow (fantasy's version of murderous strike) gave you the full wound amount for each instance. The current version of instant death says the target is reduced to 0 wounds; whether that reduction counts multiple times, or stays the same is the real question.

 

As to him being vulnerable after killing the target...not on the same turn:

 

"When one of the combatants in a Challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative step it is, the Challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the Phase for the purposes of Outside Forces."

 

So you can blast their praetor down with sevatar or sigismund, gain a maximum of between 21/15 (my guess on how instant death and challenges work) and 9/7 (your guess on the interaction) points of combat res from the challenge, and then be immune to the supporting guys for that round.

 

Still pretty good for the dominant challenger, and no reason to accept it. Why proc bonus effects and lose the chance to snipe the character?

 

Yeah, we'll have to see how it shakes out; I want to err on them not making it so even if you bring a beatstick character who pastes his opponent in 1 hit that the combat becomes literally unwinnable (barring rolling a 1 for the sweep?) for them.

[Baluc]

 

 

 

 

In other news, Grey Slayers are now their own unit. The tactical role of the old unit has been given to the new Grey Stalkers:

 

 

Wolfbros, what do you think of this?

 

 

Unless I'm missing something, there is no meaningful difference between stalker and slayer packs, not sure why they couldn't just stay the same unit with the optional loadouts built into the wargear options.

 

Having seen the other few VIth legion leaks I've got mixed feelings. Varagyr look more promising with a price drop and changes to their DT requirements (not longer requiring 6 or more models to have a spartan DT). Deathsworn appear to be untouched unless their abilities have received tweaks, their dataslate is identical to Inferno.

 

Of the 3 warlord traits there's only 1 that's any good imo, I am a little sad to lose my full list of unique warlord traits. Couldn't keep that I guess, despite DA still getting 6 RoW lol.

 

Pale Hunters RoW is much improved, actually dependable outflank finally. The Bloodied claw is much worse, I'm not sure how to justify a whole RoW on a single underwhelming (and one-use) ability. 

 

Very curious if Russ will get leaked at some point, I really hope they keep him largely as he was. I loved his Inferno dataslate.

 

I'm not making any final judgments until the rules are in my hands, but I'm not exactly hyped. Just hoping for a functional ruleset. Also fingers crossed that they don't screw over my collection, I don't want to have to reconvert models and units I've spent hours and hours on planning loadouts and unit compositions. 

 

Another side to this discussion is the lore that will arrive with the new edition, and I have to say I hope they mostly copy/paste from the Black Books. I loved everything written for the Wolves in Inferno, and I hope they don't mess things up on that front.

 

 

Deathsworn have 2 wounds, now, but it does seem like they are some how worse... stasis bombs are weird, and they only make 1 attack when they die rather than just fight at I1, and aren't fearless. Unless a speaker of the dead makes them fearless?  A unit of 10 is 25 points more expensive now. 

 

The way the stasis grenades is confusing, I dunno if someone has a better scan but I think they are defensive grenades which gives them Fleshbane, and gets hot, so against the MC and dreads they are 4+, 2+, Ap2 with 4 attacks each in the first round of combat, at I1. I guess you buy Rad grenades for hunting MEQ. 

 

They are a funny unit...

 

So far all the legions rules seem like massive downgrades to the lethality of the game which I generally see as positive. Hopefully the missions play into this, and the need to have CC units for objectives. Terminators are looking like they are going to be really tough especially the legion vet type terminators. It doesn't seem like HH will play the same as it has all these years at all. 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Baluc

[Spagunk]

So FYI, you know how there was a leak where in a terminator was labeled as someone else entirely? The leaks are rife with copy+pasta names for units that are clearly NOT that unit. For fear that this is a marker on who the leaker is, I will refrain from giving an example but sufficed to say don't look to far into mislabeled pictures of units/characters.

[bushman101]

April Fools is tomorrow.

Everyone be wary

[Mogsam]

The game is going to be 2W 2+ save elite spam if these rumours are true. Which I think is less exciting.

[Astartes Consul]

That list with pricing also has a book for non-Astartes factions listed as coming out at launch, which is something that was ruled our at Adepticon.

 

So unless it means an Index style book then, yeah, not trusting much from that particular leak.

[Gorgoff]

The game is going to be 2W 2+ save elite spam if these rumours are true. Which I think is less exciting.

You don't know one core rule yet. Relax.

[Brofist]

The traitor rules are from an early playtest. You can expect their rules to be towned down and closer to the loyalist ones. This also means dropped units like artillery. They're not in here.

[Claws and Effect]

The obvious No Model, No Rules going on does make me worry Militia are about to get the snip.

Can sorta confirm that isn't the case.

 

Saw a leaked shot of the Raven Guard RoW Liberation Force and it states that Solar Auxilia or Militia allies are now required to use the RoW, rather than being optional like they were before.

[Marshal Rohr]

I imagine if anything Militia will get more options in non-40K combinations by the addition of readily available plastic kits.

[Solar_Pattern]

I imagine if anything Militia will get more options in non-40K combinations by the addition of readily available plastic kits.

One can only hope. Admittedly with the nerf to both plasma and demolisher cannons as well as the seemingly baffling choice to make sponsons now compulsory on vehicles in certainly concerned about how militia and auxilia are going to be anywhere near "competitive" as their marine counterparts.

 

Either way I'm just glad we're finally getting an updated army list.

[Astartes Consul]

Thing is, there are lots of units that technically have 'no models'.

 

There isn't a specific kit for Tactical Support Squads or Veterans or Command Squads, for example. But you obviously build them from kits with upgrades.

 

So IM&C not having a specific range of minis since the Renegade Militia models were cut - which sucks - doesn't actually mean they have no models. 

[Legionary Pallas]

What (if anything?) do we know about the generic RoWs? I'm particularly interested in Armoured Spearhead/Breakthrough, as I've suddenly developed the burning need for a complete tank company.

[Astartes Consul]

What (if anything?) do we know about the generic RoWs? I'm particularly interested in Armoured Spearhead/Breakthrough, as I've suddenly developed the burning need for a complete tank company.

 

Haven't seen any pages leaked yet, though if the tanks currently LCTB are going plastic then I doubt GW would miss an opportunity to flog them to people with Armoured Spearhead/Breakthrough 

[Marshal Rohr]

We’ve seen remarkably little of generic Legion list info.