State of the Union (Heresy)

[Bung]

 

 

You know, is it fine to ever play the game without trying to win? I always struggle with the first reaction to a ruleset being how to find the best combination possible, and consign everything else to the bin/dusty shelf. That's just disappointing, and actually takes the fun out of playing for anyone not actually approaching a game as a zero sum game/exploit all opportunities thing.

 

When I look at Deep Strike Assault and say it's really strong, it's because it is. It's low risk, widespread, with high reward. People are going to have to interact with it a lot, regardless if it's taken competitively; any assault marine unit gives access, and there's quite a few in the game. And something I know from 5th edition is that people hated being charged out of deepstrike by vanguard veterans. They're not going to like getting Deepstrike charged multiple games in a row, and eventually they'll tech up against it, probably with augury scanners (the most accessible choice). Then you have to deal with augury scanners if you want to keep on deepstrike assaulting (regardless if you enjoy doing it, or you think its thematic, or just think it's strong and like winning) and on and on it goes.

 

See, that sounds very interesting to me. It's not a case of "deployment doesn't matter" as some have suggested, but rather that deployment is now something of a game in and of itself, where everyone plonking down their minis on the board is just the opening move and carefully using your reactions at the right time and place will be vital. Sure, you can just grab the drop RoW and ride 'em down like Major Kong...so long as your opponent doesn't have the scanners or a Master of Signals. So you have to think about maybe putting an advanced force on the ground to try and "clear the LZ", and your opponent has to respond to that by say having some fast elements to supplement their gunline. Or you can pattern your drop deployment to put your units in cover, or use tough linebreaker units that can handle the reaction fire and keep on kickin', or sequence your drops so hard hitting but disposable units come in closer and force your opponent to choose between neutralising that threat or dealing with your main force.

 

Deep strikes, infiltrators, scout moves, outflanking - they all seem much more viable and varied to me now, whereas before unless you had some really powerful trickshot RoW or Legion gimmick, most people seemed to use pretty much all the alternative deployment types as delivery systems for throwaway suicide units or a quick objective grab and not much else, and most of the time they just used pods. Now there's a lot more scope for back & forth, and it encourages people to build varied forces that anticipate potential counterplays to their main tactical plan.

 

 

The problem is, you cant combine the different stuff, you either Outflank, Drop in or come with Assault Drills. but the RoWs limit you to the one option the roW provides.

 

On th other side you have to combien all your Deep Strike assets to a Deep Strike Assault or your stuff comes in from the table edge. Same for the Drop Pod RoW. that states all Pods have to be combined and come in the first turn.

 

As i read it, if you want anything besides some deep Strikers you have to play the RoW, or your reserves come from your own table edge.

 

There is nor rule that allows models with the Deep Striike rule to deplay via Deep Strike if they arent part of the Deep Strike Assault and you can only do one.

 

And i havent seen anything that Outflankers, Pods or Termites allows to bypass that hard rule.

[Marshal Loss]

Finally had a proper chance to go through all of the leaked rules with more than a quick glance: overall, I really like what I see. A lot more excited for 2.0 now. Only major pet peeve at the moment is that EC's "Flawless Execution" can be so easily undone by the core "Hold the Line" reaction.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

 

 

 

You know, is it fine to ever play the game without trying to win? I always struggle with the first reaction to a ruleset being how to find the best combination possible, and consign everything else to the bin/dusty shelf. That's just disappointing, and actually takes the fun out of playing for anyone not actually approaching a game as a zero sum game/exploit all opportunities thing.

 

When I look at Deep Strike Assault and say it's really strong, it's because it is. It's low risk, widespread, with high reward. People are going to have to interact with it a lot, regardless if it's taken competitively; any assault marine unit gives access, and there's quite a few in the game. And something I know from 5th edition is that people hated being charged out of deepstrike by vanguard veterans. They're not going to like getting Deepstrike charged multiple games in a row, and eventually they'll tech up against it, probably with augury scanners (the most accessible choice). Then you have to deal with augury scanners if you want to keep on deepstrike assaulting (regardless if you enjoy doing it, or you think its thematic, or just think it's strong and like winning) and on and on it goes.

 

See, that sounds very interesting to me. It's not a case of "deployment doesn't matter" as some have suggested, but rather that deployment is now something of a game in and of itself, where everyone plonking down their minis on the board is just the opening move and carefully using your reactions at the right time and place will be vital. Sure, you can just grab the drop RoW and ride 'em down like Major Kong...so long as your opponent doesn't have the scanners or a Master of Signals. So you have to think about maybe putting an advanced force on the ground to try and "clear the LZ", and your opponent has to respond to that by say having some fast elements to supplement their gunline. Or you can pattern your drop deployment to put your units in cover, or use tough linebreaker units that can handle the reaction fire and keep on kickin', or sequence your drops so hard hitting but disposable units come in closer and force your opponent to choose between neutralising that threat or dealing with your main force.

 

Deep strikes, infiltrators, scout moves, outflanking - they all seem much more viable and varied to me now, whereas before unless you had some really powerful trickshot RoW or Legion gimmick, most people seemed to use pretty much all the alternative deployment types as delivery systems for throwaway suicide units or a quick objective grab and not much else, and most of the time they just used pods. Now there's a lot more scope for back & forth, and it encourages people to build varied forces that anticipate potential counterplays to their main tactical plan.

 

 

The problem is, you cant combine the different stuff, you either Outflank, Drop in or come with Assault Drills. but the RoWs limit you to the one option the roW provides.

 

On th other side you have to combien all your Deep Strike assets to a Deep Strike Assault or your stuff comes in from the table edge. Same for the Drop Pod RoW. that states all Pods have to be combined and come in the first turn.

 

As i read it, if you want anything besides some deep Strikers you have to play the RoW, or your reserves come from your own table edge.

 

There is nor rule that allows models with the Deep Striike rule to deplay via Deep Strike if they arent part of the Deep Strike Assault and you can only do one.

 

And i havent seen anything that Outflankers, Pods or Termites allows to bypass that hard rule.

 

 

All your units assigned to a Flanking/ Deep Strike/ Subterranean/ Drop Pod Assault have to deploy as one yeah, but there's nothing stopping you deploying units via multiple of these methods unless you choose a Rite that restricts what type of reserve deployments you can use - only Drop Pod Assaults are locked to a Rite, but all the units it applies to have the deep strike rule anyway so they can deploy as part of a Deep Strike Assault with a different Rite.

 

Personally I like the fact you have to group all your units deploying via these special reserve mechanics - they thematically reflect the idea of a supplementary force all arriving at once rather than say teleporting in your strike group piecemeal. Plus it streamlines reserve deployments somewhat and presents much less of a raw chance game for your opponent when it comes to units that could be arriving on top of/ behind their army.

[Bung]

I am not sure about the the rules allowing multiple methods of deployment.

 

In the leaks i know, there is only the option for Deep Strike Assault, i havent found anything about how Drop Pods etc. Work outside the RoW.

[Stix]

Nice to see buff to graviton pulse rule!

Any info about Cerberus? How does it look like now?

[wildweasel]

I am not sure about the the rules allowing multiple methods of deployment.

 

In the leaks i know, there is only the option for Deep Strike Assault, i havent found anything about how Drop Pods etc. Work outside the RoW.

The standard reserves rules allow you to perform a Deep Strike Assault and a Flanking Assault with reserve units that have the appropriate rule, including transports with units embarked. Drop pods have the Deep Strike rule, and thus you can drop them via a Deep Strike Assault in any mission that uses reserves (barring a further special rule that says otherwise). If you have access to the phase 3 full core rules, see book page 310.

[Bung]

 

I am not sure about the the rules allowing multiple methods of deployment.

 

In the leaks i know, there is only the option for Deep Strike Assault, i havent found anything about how Drop Pods etc. Work outside the RoW.

The standard reserves rules allow you to perform a Deep Strike Assault and a Flanking Assault with reserve units that have the appropriate rule, including transports with units embarked. Drop pods have the Deep Strike rule, and thus you can drop them via a Deep Strike Assault in any mission that uses reserves (barring a further special rule that says otherwise). If you have access to the phase 3 full core rules, see book page 310.

I dont have Access to the full core rules Just some leaks.

And they miss pages from the Reserve rules.

[Gorgoff]

Personally I like the fact you have to group all your units deploying via these special reserve mechanics - they thematically reflect the idea of a supplementary force all arriving at once rather than say teleporting in your strike group piecemeal. Plus it streamlines reserve deployments somewhat and presents much less of a raw chance game for your opponent when it comes to units that could be arriving on top of/ behind their army.

It should be an option to do that and not compulsory. Because of the 1/6 Chance of being a disordered DS we will see conga lines, we will unrealistic wide spread units to minimize the risk, we will see augury scanners on every unit and MotS in every army which doesn't want to DS. I like the idea but like I said not as compulsory. I like to DS where I want and don't want to be forces to make one massive strike in more or less one place. On a personal level I don't like this sort of streamlining because it takes away the options to make good and bad decisions.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

Personally I like the fact you have to group all your units deploying via these special reserve mechanics - they thematically reflect the idea of a supplementary force all arriving at once rather than say teleporting in your strike group piecemeal. Plus it streamlines reserve deployments somewhat and presents much less of a raw chance game for your opponent when it comes to units that could be arriving on top of/ behind their army.

It should be an option to do that and not compulsory. Because of the 1/6 Chance of being a disordered DS we will see conga lines, we will unrealistic wide spread units to minimize the risk, we will see augury scanners on every unit and MotS in every army which doesn't want to DS. I like the idea but like I said not as compulsory. I like to DS where I want and don't want to be forces to make one massive strike in more or less one place. On a personal level I don't like this sort of streamlining because it takes away the options to make good and bad decisions.

Well the obvious thought was that the deepstrike clump is to offset the ability to charge. Can't have people sniping tons of objectives on the flanks with their reliable deepstrike charge.

 

The process isn't really a streamlined version of current deepstrike, despite what IHF claims. You make 1 reserve roll instead of multiple, but you still have to roll for each unit to see if they're disrupted. The lack of time scattering the secondary units is offset by being able to deploy them in congas, or max coherency blobs and contort around the table. Then you also get to charge. You're going to be spending a lot more time on your deepstrikers, rather than less.

 

And yea, obviously the decisive nature of mass deepstrike charge is going to drive hard countering in opponents that have to deal with elite jump units or terminators constantly reserve charging them.

Edited April 6, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk

[StrangerOrders]

Finally had a proper chance to go through all of the leaked rules with more than a quick glance: overall, I really like what I see. A lot more excited for 2.0 now. Only major pet peeve at the moment is that EC's "Flawless Execution" can be so easily undone by the core "Hold the Line" reaction.

Cant find the doc so I'll just ask.

 

Are Palatines still losing the option for Jump Packs in this version?

[wildweasel]

 

I dont have Access to the full core rules Just some leaks.

And they miss pages from the Reserve rules.

 

 

In short, if reserves are allowed by the mission special rules, then any units with the appropriate rules that are in reserve may be assigned to a Deep Strike Assault or a Flanking Assault - you can potentially have units in "standard" reserve walking on, units performing a Deep Strike Assault, and units performing a Flanking Assault all in the same game. The Drop Assault RoW differs from just taking pods and Deep Striking normally in that they arrive by the RoW specific Drop Pod Assault rules on turn 1, and it allows you to take pods as DT for a lot of units. One big difference between 30K and 40K (7E) is that Drop Pods are not normally a selectable DT option for most units. For the core Crusade list, only Vets can take standard pods, Terminator squads can take Dreadclaws, and solo COntemptors/Leviathans can take Dread pods.

[Spagunk]

 

Finally had a proper chance to go through all of the leaked rules with more than a quick glance: overall, I really like what I see. A lot more excited for 2.0 now. Only major pet peeve at the moment is that EC's "Flawless Execution" can be so easily undone by the core "Hold the Line" reaction.

Cant find the doc so I'll just ask.

 

Are Palatines still losing the option for Jump Packs in this version?

 

The current playtest rules in rotation do not have jump packs. There are some speculations that the one in rotation for Traitors are very early so we'll have to see.

[bushman101]

What do the current leaks say about the Droppods themselves? Are they still not DTs outside of certain RoW?

 

It bothered me how restrictive they were to use in the current edition

[wildweasel]

What do the current leaks say about the Droppods themselves? Are they still not DTs outside of certain RoW?

 

It bothered me how restrictive they were to use in the current edition

 

In the phase 3 Crusade list the only unit that has vanilla pods as a DT option on their datasheet are Vets. Termies can take Dreadclaws. This doesn't extend to command squads.

[Noserenda]

Ive always really liked the more specialised use of Drop pods in 30k, though i would extend the RoW a bit so you can take it as an ally or have an ally ignore its restrictions, it just feels like a much better display of drop podding rather than one or two random squads or dreads dropping out of nowhere randomly in ways that break the narrative of so many scenarios when the pods would have to have been launched some time before the battle.

[JDizzle]

Something else I've noticed that I don't think anyone else has mentioned: terminator praetors and centurions have an extra wound compared to their power armoured equivalents now. The points costings for these are also quite inconsistent as the power armoured centurion is fewer points than the terminator centurions (as you might expect given the wound difference) but the power armoured praetor is more points than the tartaros praetor (despite having fewer wounds).

 

Given it's generally cheaper than Cataphractii now, Tartaros is looking pretty great in this edition unless these rules or points values change for release.

[Darkwrath121]

Something else I've noticed that I don't think anyone else has mentioned: terminator praetors and centurions have an extra wound compared to their power armoured equivalents now. The points costings for these are also quite inconsistent as the power armoured centurion is fewer points than the terminator centurions (as you might expect given the wound difference) but the power armoured praetor is more points than the tartaros praetor (despite having fewer wounds).

 

Given it's generally cheaper than Cataphractii now, Tartaros is looking pretty great in this edition unless these rules or points values change for release.

The Tartaros praetor also lacks an Iron Halo, so that may be a factor, though hopefully not something they plan on actually keeping as a change. Definitely agree though, costing will be interesting to see in the final version.

[Brofist]

Yeah, its cheaper because its more wounds for a worse invuln save

[JDizzle]

Yeah, its cheaper because its more wounds for a worse invuln save

Oh, so the power armour praetor come with an iron halo stock? I've only seen the statline for the power armoured praetor.

[Darkwrath121]

 

 

Yeah, its cheaper because its more wounds for a worse invuln save

Oh, so the power armour praetor come with an iron halo stock? I've only seen the statline for the power armoured praetor.

The power armoured praetor does come with an IH stock, and the centurions with a refractor field stock. We'll see if it's a mistake or not eventually, but for now, the tartaros is the odd-one-out 5++ praetor!

[Hfran Morkai]

So Thursday is here, what do we think/hope the reveal is today?

 

I'm hoping for the other character in the box or the Dread as I'd like to know the options for the Dreadnought but I also see them mirroring the other character (although I can also see them leaving him until last).

 

It could also be nothing from "The Box".

 

Either way I'm excited.

[Hungry Nostraman Lizard]

 

Like any normal dude I abandoned all responsibilities to spend this week pouring over the new rules. I've digested probably 3/4s of the ruleset so I wanted to share how it feels this edition is shaping out to be. While these are playtest rules, they're latestage and likely not very different from what's being printed somewhere right now.

 

I've been playing since Book 1. This new edition will feel familiar to longtime players, but underneath it's a major rework. What we have is closer to a new game than an incremental change. You can feel the influence of more recent specialist games with tighter, more deliberate rules, and less traps or erroneous wargear options. I'm sure everyone can find something they wish was different, but overall what I'm seeing is quite good and an exciting new direction for 30k.

 

The new game is much more mobile than before- most units can move longer distances, many significantly so. Simultaneously, there are less ways to scout, infiltrate, or outflank. Coming in from reserves is more reliable, more tactically interesting for both players, and also more concentrated- units come in as groups in an area rather than piecemeal across many turns. Assault from certain kinds of reserves is now possible, but can be countered by reactions or planning. Reactions give you an economy of actions to take during an opponents turn, keeping you engaged during the entire game. Fliers can even react to enemy fliers from off the table. All this combined, I think we're going to see a more interesting, dynamic, game. You're going to be planning your turn, how your opponent might react to you, and how you will react to them... and then half an army shows up somewhere else on the table on the second turn. Very cool.

 

New or existing special rules have been reworked to enable you to buff or debuff units, leading to new interesting interactions. For many of these new interactions there are wargear options that enable you to mitigate them, leading to new, very different, list building opportunities. Some legions lean more heavily into using these new mechanics, but everyone still has access to them. Regarding internal balance, there are some deliberate design choices that have given breathing room to underused wargear and units. Melta bombs, AP2, AP3, and large blast weapons are much more rare. Artillery, in particularly, is either gone or capped out at AP3. Opposite to this, there is now much more access to weapons with things like pinning(), shred(), rending(), or new similar mechanics. Giving special rules scales to how good they pin and rend further helps differentiate equipment. Weapon balance is the best its been with pretty clear niches for most weapons. Leadership has been knocked down a notch, many of the old wargear options are not as strong, and Sergents only bring a unit up to 8. Fearless is somehow even more rare, yet there are more situations where you'll need to test against leadership. Many infantry units now have two wounds with the 'mandatory' wargear options builtin or clearly presented to you. There seems to be a conscious effort to limit the number of trap choices presented to players and to reduce erroneous rolling- no more look out sir, for example, because you don't need it with how the new wound allocation system works. RoW, HQs, and legion abilities are generally less restrictive, but also less powerful. 

 

Its impossible to update a game of this scope without something not working right or somebody getting disappointed. A few of the new rules, like defensive weapons, add granularity without a lot in return. This edition comes almost a decade after Book 1, so the influence of corporate GW is certainly here. While there are less trap choices, there are also less quirky interesting wargear options. Its a change of the times. If a unit doesn't have a model, you can expect it to be gone. Retiring physical models is not an easy pill to swallow- some units are entirely gone, others taken out from the legion book and placed into other army lists. We can only speculate if we'll see some return. Balance is also a double edged sword- the same deliberate design choices that are encouraging big units of infantry are also hurting others. Plasma is less effective, but it still costs a lot. Big powerful ordinance weapons find themselves in strange new niches, doing notably less hits, at notably worse AP, against cheaper, more numerous infantry with the ability to tank the damage better. Despite their best efforts, some habits die hard, so you can still look forward to finding some of that 'old' Forgeworld flavor in here- categorically overpriced plasma pistols, units left without a niche as other things changed around them, wargear options that interact with themselves in a way that nullifys the wargear you paid for, etc. These aren't many, but they're still here.

 

I get the feeling this new edition will open up favoring large diverse units of infantry and direct fire weapons. Infantry are more survivable than ever, and they're cheap. There's a big emphasis on attrition now, either through the importance of leadership or the multitude of mechanics that rend, shred, sunder, or breach their way past your armor saves. Battles should feel more like gritty slug fests where you're wearing down each other rather than removing models while standing around with a beer. With how reserves work, you'll see bigger more meaningful shifts to a battle once or twice a game instead of a harassment from enemy units deepstriking anywhere throughout the entire game. Reactions are also really important, so finding out when and how to use yours, with the army you build, will be a big part of figuring out the new game. 1500pts in the new edition feels closer to 1850 today. Combined with the completely new unit and equipment meta? We'll, its all very new and exciting.

 

1000 words to say, the rules look good folks

 

Appreciate your compiled thoughts. Sad to hear about all the stuff we're losing, though. Boxnaughts are iconic...

 

 

Removed stuff

 

Consuls

-Warmonger

-Nullificator

Nullificators

Boxnoughts

Contemptor Cortus

Mortis Boxnaught

Contemptor Mortis

Hussar Squad

Sky Seekers

Attack Bikes(?)

Tarantulas

Primaris Lightning

Sky-Slayers

Land Raider Achilles

Land Riader Achilles Alpha

Legion Basilik

Legion Medusa

Caestus Assault Ram

Legion Malcador

 

PoW  LoWs

Baneblade Family

Macharius Family

Malcador Family

 

Actual Book LoW Drops

Stormblade

Thunderhawk Transporter

Big stupid terrain piece

 

Legion Specific (that we've seen in leaks etc so is spotty at best, also factor in exemplary battle units are goneski as well)

 

Dark Angels

Firewing Enigmatus Cabal

Ironwing Excindio Automata

Mardruk Sedras

Farith Redloss

 

EC

Ancient Rylaanor

 

IW

Iron Havocs

Golg

Vhalen

Dreygur

 

White Scars

Falcons Claws (probably)

Tsolmon Khan (?)

 

SW

(?)

 

IF

(?)

 

NL

Mawdrym

Kheron Ophion

Makrid Thole

 

BA

Aster Crohne

 

IH

Castrmen Orth

Autek Mor

Shadrak Meduson

 

World Eaters

Shabran Darr

Gahlan Surlak (by extension Inductii)

 

Ultras

Fulmentarus (?)

Locutarus Storm (?)

Honored Telemchrus

 

DG

Crysos Morturg

Durak Rask

 

1ksons

Ammatara Cabal

 

 

SoH

Tybalt Marr

 

WB

Hol Beloth

 

Sallies

Cassian Dracos

Dracos Reborn

Chaplain Nomus

Xiaphas Jurr

 

RG

Darkwing Gunship

Alvarex Maun

Kaedus Nex

 

AL

Skorr

 

Blackshields

Black Shield Reaver Lord

BS Marauder Squads

 

Good chance I've missed stuff/put stuff on the list that has been confirmed, but its a start. 

 

P.S. I'm not buying units were dropped to 'reduce book load' when we have pages for 'Praetor', 'Praetor in Tartaros Armour' etc... 

 

 

I hope I could use my Macharius as a stand-in for the Kratos tank... and a big damn shame that we're losing Thole and Mawdrym. Such neat characters, totally deserving of a model. Kheron... eh, not so much. Still, I feel bad for those that have converted any of these, including the other Legion ones. 

 

 

http://i.4pcdn.org/tg/1648839388007.png

 

R.I.P Heresy Boxnought. You weren't relic-tech enough for this cruel Age of Darkness.

 

On the other hand, this all but confirms a Corswain model... or means that the RG & SL characters aren't getting axed after all.

hmmm so that revises my earlier comment, hopefully we see some others!

 

 

The decision to remove the Boxnought makes sense and doesn't.

 

It makes sense because by removing the Boxnought, you shove the Contemptor down people's throat.

I may be in the minority on this one, but the Boxnought never screamed Heresy to me in the way the Contemptor chassis did. I liked the distinction and visual evolution between settings, and the justification for progression too. I can’t genuinely recall facing a Boxnought on the table either, but if something like this doesn’t make the new edition and people have been using them, proxy or count-as would likely be best employed here, and I imagine most would be amenable!

 

Aww, that's a shame. The Mark IV ironclad ones really looked 30k, but the plastic one certainly could use some more work.

 

 

 

I have three of these, two ironclads and one venerable (the old dark angel one from FW) that I loved running. Great little value for their points. 

[wildweasel]

Most of these missing units are probably going to be available as PDF downloads as part of the Expanded unit options per the leaked rules.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Yeah, as brother wildweasel mentions, there's a set of expanded rules. I expect to see most of the missing units represented there.

 

Hopefully, it's a pretty extensive set.

[Bung]

Contemptor Mortis isnt missed.

It merged with the normal Contemptor but you have to buy the Helical Targeting Array.

 

Same goes for Sky Slayers.