State of the Union (Heresy)

[BitsHammer]

A thought is the mixed mark of armour could be a MkV artificer variant.

Also MkVI was the most common mark before it was retconned so all GW did was retcon the more recent retcon.

[WrathOfTheLion]

That the box was MK VI has been notable for almost a year now. How could you be excited and then later get salty because it has MK VI, which it has had the entire time we've known about it?

 

I could understand being salty the entire time, but for the life of me I can't understand that progression.

Edited April 16, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[Marshal Mittens]

Beakies are the best. They were my original boys. I am super stoked for MK VI!

[Ripper.McGuirl]

I honestly think the MKV was probably a pain in the ass to design for plastic because of all the undercuts on the studs. If you look at the legs on the MKIV kit, for instance, a bunch of the studs are all wonky and extruded and aren’t really even studs.

[Noserenda]

That the box was MK VI has been notable for almost a year now. How could you be excited and then later get salty because it has MK VI, which it has had the entire time we've known about it?

 

I could understand being salty the entire time, but for the life of me I can't understand that progression.

Well im less impressed by the details, but thats purely aesthetics, (well, that and less guns) Mk6 plastics as a concept are still awesome though :D 

[WrathOfTheLion]

 

That the box was MK VI has been notable for almost a year now. How could you be excited and then later get salty because it has MK VI, which it has had the entire time we've known about it?

 

I could understand being salty the entire time, but for the life of me I can't understand that progression.

Well im less impressed by the details, but thats purely aesthetics, (well, that and less guns) Mk6 plastics as a concept are still awesome though

 

Yeah, I can get that :D

 

I personally have liked the details more over time. A lot of it is seeing the characters and getting time to digest what I want to do with them.

 

...

The basis of that comment was that I was commenting on those salty about that the box contains MK VI, when they say that 'ruined' their enthusiasm about the box. How did one make it until now without seeing that MK VI were coming, painted in Sons of Horus and Imperial Fists? I just don't get that, it would require being completely obtuse to all information that's been around.

[Trixie]

 

I'd prefer they keep Blanche style away from the Heresy. That IF praetor is way over designed, not quite as bad as poor Valdor but he's still covered in a lot of crap that'll be difficult to carve off. It looks like a mini from Aos or 40k to me and I'll 100% be selling mine if it comes in any box I end up buying.

 

Just my feels on the subject. If other folk like that style then good for them.

I disagree since Blanche's art helped shape the Heresy and the feel for the Imperium. I get people's tastes differ but it's hard to accept that one of the main designers of the setting from M30 and on "doesn't fit the setting".

 

 

Whilst it's true a lot of Blanches work did appear in the visions of Heresy artwork, the game itself and the minis we've used for a decade have moved a long way forward and away from even remotely reassembling Blanches style. It would be extremely difficult for anyone with a 30k army to argue otherwise about this, and as a result it is now true that Blanche style does not fit the setting which has developed since the game and black books appeared.

 

As I said though if folk enjoy it then more power to them, but the majority of the feedback I've seen from current 30k players regarding that Praetor and this creeping high fantasy style hasn't been positive feedback at all.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Trixie

[BitsHammer]

 

 

I'd prefer they keep Blanche style away from the Heresy. That IF praetor is way over designed, not quite as bad as poor Valdor but he's still covered in a lot of crap that'll be difficult to carve off. It looks like a mini from Aos or 40k to me and I'll 100% be selling mine if it comes in any box I end up buying.

 

Just my feels on the subject. If other folk like that style then good for them.

I disagree since Blanche's art helped shape the Heresy and the feel for the Imperium. I get people's tastes differ but it's hard to accept that one of the main designers of the setting from M30 and on "doesn't fit the setting".

 

 

Whilst it's true a lot of Blanches work did appear in the visions of Heresy artwork, the game itself and the minis we've used for a decade have moved a long way forward and away from even remotely reassembling Blanches style. It would be extremely difficult for anyone with a 30k army to argue otherwise about this, and as a result it is now true that Blanche style does not fit the setting which has developed since the game and black books appeared.

 

As I said though if folk enjoy it then more power to them, but the majority of the feedback I've seen from current 30k players regarding that Praetor and this creeping high fantasy style hasn't been positive feedback at all.

 

Blanche's designs are rarely translated directly but elements of them have been used and repeated across all of GW's settings he's worked on. This includes in 30k.

 

Honestly the waving off the baroque as "fantasy" is a little insulting. There's nothing fantasy about the designs (and even if there was 30k/40k are more space opera than true sci-fi so it's less out of place than people are claiming it could be in a setting that functionally has space wizards), it's just different than the cleaner designs people are used to. 

 

That said, it's not like FW hadn't touched on more decorated elements themselves. Just go to the Horus Heresy section, select "Characters" as unit type and skip past the Primarchs (most of which are also dropping in decorative elements) and you'll see most of the characters are hardly as bare bones as the generic praetors were. There is a wide range of decorative elements on the characters and it feels like there is a line being drawn in the sand not because this is a major break from how much bling characters have and more because it's GW whose doing it and their bright clean paint style doesn't look like what people expect from the HH line when FW did the painting.

[No Foes Remain]

That the box was MK VI has been notable for almost a year now. How could you be excited and then later get salty because it has MK VI, which it has had the entire time we've known about it?

 

I could understand being salty the entire time, but for the life of me I can't understand that progression.

I didn't say I was salty because it had Mk6 in it, I said I was salty because of GW's retcon of the Mk6. It makes sense in-universe that the SoH and IF would have some of the Mk6, Horus diverted a lot of good new tech to his legion first and then others who would side with him. The IF being at Sol and close to Mars would have also gotten a fair chunk before the Heresy kicked off and probably got even more afterwards from the spoils they raided from there even after giving thousands of suits to the Raven Guard.

 

And the GW's retcon of the Mk6 isn't retconning recent lore, it's lore that's been about for 10 years nearly since Book 2: Massacre and although covid has taken a few years of the progression of the world 10 years still isn't recent.

[The Scorpion]

 

 

And the GW's retcon of the Mk6 isn't retconning recent lore, it's lore that's been about for 10 years nearly since Book 2: Massacre and although covid has taken a few years of the progression of the world 10 years still isn't recent.

 

Thank you. So many people reeling at the beakies as if the black books lore wasn't new as heck, and hadn't later backtracked about Corvus-pattern being the sole purview of the last two legions.

Edited April 17, 2022 by The Scorpion

[Marshal Mittens]

There is lots of artwork of beakies elsewhere in the heresy, and a lot of notable characters are often depicted as wearing it? I think Khârn wears MKVI right? Sans helmet anyway. Feels like maybe people just want to be salty. We di already have III and IV in plastic.

[Mogsam]

Mark VI is a cool armourset. If people don't really want to use it, that's fine!

 

I'd be more concerned that the bodies might be monoposesque. While I make alot of my mark iv in somewhat generic poses, at least that's my choice!

[Gorgoff]

There is lots of artwork of beakies elsewhere in the heresy, and a lot of notable characters are often depicted as wearing it? I think Khârn wears MKVI right?

No, it's MKV.

The thing is: for ten years it is lore that MKVI was only seen in a couple of legions and now they force that stupid armour down our throats because they want to sell it. It is so obvious and that's the big Deal about it. They should have made it MKV. Everyone could use these without any problems but no it HAS to be a mark only a fraction of players would have choosen. And please stop calling people salty because they don't like this armour. It's a matter of taste that's all.

[No Foes Remain]

 

There is lots of artwork of beakies elsewhere in the heresy, and a lot of notable characters are often depicted as wearing it? I think Khârn wears MKVI right?

No, it's MKV.

The thing is: for ten years it is lore that MKVI was only seen in a couple of legions and now they force that stupid armour down our throats because they want to sell it. It is so obvious and that's the big Deal about it. They should have made it MKV. Everyone could use these without any problems but no it HAS to be a mark only a fraction of players would have choosen. And please stop calling people salty because they don't like this armour. It's a matter of taste that's all.

 

Exactly. I can see all legions having a small amount of Mk6 as part of a wide test bed (logical to have a wide test pool rather than a limited test pool, hell the Death Guard and the Salamanders both would have a amount of it from the first tests) but with the Raven Guard conducting the full field testing. But pretty much replacing Mk5 with Mk6 during the Heresy is just a sales tactic to prey on those who like the Mk6 for the beakie vibes.

[Gorgoff]

 

 

 

There is lots of artwork of beakies elsewhere in the heresy, and a lot of notable characters are often depicted as wearing it? I think Khârn wears MKVI right?

No, it's MKV.

The thing is: for ten years it is lore that MKVI was only seen in a couple of legions and now they force that stupid armour down our throats because they want to sell it. It is so obvious and that's the big Deal about it. They should have made it MKV. Everyone could use these without any problems but no it HAS to be a mark only a fraction of players would have choosen. And please stop calling people salty because they don't like this armour. It's a matter of taste that's all.

Exactly. I can see all legions having a small amount of Mk6 as part of a wide test bed (logical to have a wide test pool rather than a limited test pool, hell the Death Guard and the Salamanders both would have a amount of it from the first tests) but with the Raven Guard conducting the full field testing. But pretty much replacing Mk5 with Mk6 during the Heresy is just a sales tactic to prey on those who like the Mk6 for the beakie vibes.

If they would have just droped the box with MKVI in it without making a fuzz about it I guess most players would just have accepted it as odd but nothing more.

[Noserenda]

Mk6 was alway prevalent by the siege of terra, its a common mistake to assume the status quo at the start of the heresy somehow survived 8ish years of total war but it didn't. So yeah, it's salt to be moaning about retcons you made up.

[Rejects of Anvilus]

I think the real mistake was ten years ago deciding that MKVI wasn’t that prevalent, effective making the previous twenty plus years of lore wrong. I grew up with the original AT and epic and that was all pictures of MKVI marines being everywhere in the heresy. I am glad to see that GW have now moved back to how it originally was. (Still probably not going to buy any though…) 

[No Foes Remain]

Mk6 was alway prevalent by the siege of terra, its a common mistake to assume the status quo at the start of the heresy somehow survived 8ish years of total war but it didn't. So yeah, it's salt to be moaning about retcons you made up.

Siege of Terra, yes but GW have changed it to most of the Heresy. It's not made up it was in the White Dwarf Article Armour Through the Ages.

[Marshal Mittens]

MkVI has always been a favorite of mine, its classic space marines to me, so personally I am very happy they are bringing it out. We have III and IV, I don't understand being super upset that they are bringing out VI, if you don't like it, you have other options, also in plastic?

[Corswain]

I think the MKVI looks great but that some MK's suit some Legions better than others - Beakies don't work for Iron Warriors for me.

 

In terms of lore though, it's pretty simple to come up with a reason for your army to have MKVI. It could be a early Heresy trial batch, late Heresy scavenged set or the space wizards could have time travelled it into existence accidentally while making home-brew.

Imagination is the only limitation.

Personally, I am big fan of a good ol' fashion "because reasons!"

[WrathOfTheLion]

They would obviously have switched production to Mk V and Mk VI within the first couple years of the Heresy, there's little chance MK IV was seeing large scale production after ~2 years in. Any unit 5 years in would likely be getting issued MK VI.

[Marshal Loss]

To quote the White Dwarf in question:

 

Towards the end of the Horus Heresy, Mark VI was in wide use throughout almost every Legion, for both sides were in possession of the imprints, and forge worlds allied to both Terra and the Warmaster were able to produce it in large quantities. In the main, it was those Legions in direct contact with a functioning supply chain that received the largest numbers of Mark VI suits, while individual units separated from reliable supply lines by distance or circumstance were forced to rely on the ersatz Mark V. By the time of the Siege of Terra, however, when the supply lines of most of the participants had been re-established, Mark VI was the most numerous pattern in service, and this would continue well into the Scouring and the present age.

 

Two key points:

• Mark VI was in wide use towards the end of the Horus Heresy (note: in almost every Legion)
• Mark VI was the most numerous pattern in service by the time of the Siege of Terra

It is going to be strange for many of us seeing Mark VI become the real life flavour of the month after being a fringe choice in the hobby for nearly a decade, and obviously there is a degree of marketing in how GW have chosen and will choose to present Mark VI's place in the universe (which is the norm with all of their releases). But this really is not the drastic re-imagining that it is made out to be in some quarters, and is frankly more of a progression from the lore we received a decade ago than it is an outright retcon. GW are certainly not saying that Mark VI was the armour of choice for "most of the heresy", and text written to describe the state of affairs at the beginning of the war is not mutually incompatible with newer text written to describe the state of affairs towards the end of the war.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Now that we know exemplary battle units are reverse written for 1st, do we want to revisit any? I'll assume the bespoke rules have a 1:1 conversion. Caveat the traitor ones are even more unreliable due to phase 1.

 

Deliverers are obviously...the same. WS 5 and hardened makes them even more durable. The reroll 1s on first round does not pair well with Ravens talons unfortunately. I don't expect them to score any more, so factor that in.

 

Dark sons of death are going to lose damage output from the glaive being nerfed, but have a lot of value with flanking (from brotherhood) and deepstrike assault. Depending on the values for fleet and rage, you could see them getting a pretty long bomb charge off with a bunch of attacks. The aoe ritual might be more useful now that LD went down across the board. Not being WS 5 will hurt in the long run.

 

Sunkillers are better by dint of artillery being worse. Las got better, but unfortunately plasma got much worse against infantry. Their ignore cover matters less as all cover saves got nerfed in 2nd. Subsonic pulser will be quite helpful though.

 

Nemesis destroyers are better since their legion is better. Leadership test off of any wound is obviously better with lower leaderships.

 

The exemplary cenobium got...worse I think? The normal Terranic swords got a lot better, and the flexibility of the other orders is something you'd want in most cases. The extra wound is good, but normal cenobium also have that. I guess what I'm trying to say is if the normal unit didn't exist, these would be better. Also don't expect these to score any more, so keep that in mind like with the deliverers.

 

Poisoners seem the same. Uh there's really not much to them; flamers into getting charged with extra CCW and rads. If they get a pyroclast-esq buff then their role will be more defined.

 

I want to say red hand destroyers got worse. They're a unit that really benefitted from hatred, rage and rerolling 1s. They'll still pump out a lot of attacks with a chainaxe or falax, but they lose a lot of their to-hit reliability. Doubly so by being WS 4 in a world where they hit better opponents on 5s. They are very good at charging in beserker assault though, so watch out.

 

Dominators got better. The bonus wound, cataphractii durability increase and WS 5 all make them even more durable. Thunderhammers got buffed, iron warriors are better at killing stuff now, and feel no pain is helpful with the added defensive stats. As they're all characters, they can swap the thunderhammers for graviton crushers that just, demolish vehicles. But, expect them to lose scoring. This matters a bit more since you'd bring a scoring unit into the low slot.

 

Atrementar. Oh boy do I think they're better. Where do I start? WS 5 gives improved defensive stats. Two wounds. Atfm gives procs off shooting, and their squad size can be huge. Being able to overwatch at full BS with a huge brick at a bonus to wound is...good. Fear is a constant applying LD debuffs, which means Atfm is always on when you're in close range. It also means that, assuming they kept deepstrike like the contekar, a close deepstrike during night time forces pinning at -2. On to the weapons. Chainglaives are +2 STR with shred (mostly offsetting the loss of +1 to hit from Atfm), and meaning you're better against armour until 13.

Grenade harness is better since it's frag grenades all the time. There's more instances of stuff like rage that rely on not being disordered, so Cloaked in Murder is better. And that brings me to sworn loyalty. Unlike the other terminator options I've talked about, I do think atrementar will keep scoring, as they can lose it when sevatar dies. And I guess I should mention they'd get preferred enemy on the deepstrike due to sevatars warlord trait. I'm not sure what the best loadout for these guys will be, but combi volkite seems pretty strong for rate of fire, as do reapers. Combi meltas really help against other terminator units though. Either way, you got a lot of options. Whew...

 

Last is the huscarls. I think these got better as well. Normal stuff; extra wound, WS 5, better cataphractii. Probably losing implacable sucks, but still being able to be taken as an hq is great. You'd want them to keep their current version of shield wall, as WS6 does more than...no improvement to their save lol. Access to deepstrike is great. They lose benefit from stone gauntlet, but hammer fall is obviously a lot better. But then again, you can make them out of legion terminators with the new rules for...300 points? And huscarls are 275? Definitely pretty good.

 

So uh ya, most of them are better. Poisoners are still odd.

[Petitioner's City]

And a key point is that is seven years' (or nine from Prospero/Signups/etc) development - seven years is such a long time, and clearly enough time for something to be introduced at the start and then spread through supply chain to become a standard by the end. Things always start small, but if successful, don't stay that way....

[BitsHammer]

 

That the box was MK VI has been notable for almost a year now. How could you be excited and then later get salty because it has MK VI, which it has had the entire time we've known about it?

 

I could understand being salty the entire time, but for the life of me I can't understand that progression.

I didn't say I was salty because it had Mk6 in it, I said I was salty because of GW's retcon of the Mk6. It makes sense in-universe that the SoH and IF would have some of the Mk6, Horus diverted a lot of good new tech to his legion first and then others who would side with him. The IF being at Sol and close to Mars would have also gotten a fair chunk before the Heresy kicked off and probably got even more afterwards from the spoils they raided from there even after giving thousands of suits to the Raven Guard.

 

And the GW's retcon of the Mk6 isn't retconning recent lore, it's lore that's been about for 10 years nearly since Book 2: Massacre and although covid has taken a few years of the progression of the world 10 years still isn't recent.

 

And that 10 year retcon was a retcon of over 14 years of lore.

 

The Horus Heresy has always been retcons all the way down.