State of the Union (Heresy)

[Slips]

Yeah, Charnabal weapons used to be depicted as Sabres, generally. But you also have Saul with his Broadsword so any seemingly well-crafted but un-powered sword/weapon should be fine?

[Joe]

There's the tabar (two-handed axe) and glaive now as well.

[Gorgoff]

Which ones would you use, Gergoff?

Gergoff? :D

I would have said Tabar, but after googeln it and seeing that frightning lady I go for the classical one.

[Chaeron]

All armors are fluffy BUT...

 

 

... some armors are more fluffy than others.

 

I love the reference - but there is something about how it ties into one's perception of the Heresy aesthetic that rings true. To each their own, of course!

[Excessus]

 

Which ones would you use, Gergoff?

Gergoff? :D

I would have said Tabar, but after googeln it and seeing that frightning lady I go for the classical one.

Dark Gods, I did not need to see that...

[Gorgoff]

 

 

Which ones would you use, Gergoff?

Gergoff? :D

I would have said Tabar, but after googeln it and seeing that frightning lady I go for the classical one.

Dark Gods, I did not need to see that...

Horrible, no?

[dicebod]

Yeah, Charnabal weapons used to be depicted as Sabres, generally. But you also have Saul with his Broadsword so any seemingly well-crafted but un-powered sword/weapon should be fine?

 

Interestingly enough, Tarvitz's weapon seems to have a power generator on the model as well:

 

 

Now it's worth noting that the weapons in the special weapons pack and palatine blades *dont* have the power generator or the little glowing node...but since we've seen them both ways, you're probably safe using anything. They're kinda like paragon blades in that regard I suppose?

[Brofist]

 

Which ones would you use, Gergoff?

Gergoff?

I would have said Tabar, but after googeln it and seeing that frightning lady I go for the classical one.

 

damned autocorrect

 

we've both been called worse things though, I'm sure

[OttoVonAwesome]

Speaking if marks I've been lured into the Night Lords thanks to the siren song of ADB's writing and been putting heavy consideration into playing them but have been waffling if I'd want MkIV, MkVI, or MkVI with the skull helms from FW.

Nightlords look great in mark 6. I remember this old piece of art from I think 4th edition chaos book? Shows a Nightlord in mark 6 looking totally uncorrupted like he'd just walked straight out of the heresy and to me that's how I've always viewed them since.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Anyone have ideas of how to build Charnable weapons? There are three different ones in second edition as it seems.

Probably just the Sabre. Their gimmick is breaching, and the Sabre is tied for the best value, while also having the most attacks.

[Astartes Consul]

 

Speaking if marks I've been lured into the Night Lords thanks to the siren song of ADB's writing and been putting heavy consideration into playing them but have been waffling if I'd want MkIV, MkVI, or MkVI with the skull helms from FW.

Nightlords look great in mark 6. I remember this old piece of art from I think 4th edition chaos book? Shows a Nightlord in mark 6 looking totally uncorrupted like he'd just walked straight out of the heresy and to me that's how I've always viewed them since.

 

 

Does help that Night Lords looked like dirty Traitors long before the Heresy though...

[Arkhanist]

The only place in the Heresy I can see mark 6 being somewhat anachronistic (other than on raven guard/alpha legon) would be Istvaan; and even then, some prototypes were available, so there'd be *some* suits available even there.

 

Timeline for ages has been:

Mark 2 created on Terra near end of Age of Strife on Mars in preparation for the Great Crusade, most advanced they could build (but complex, e.g. the microscopic rings). Due to challenges in the early Crusade in tunnel fighting, boarding actions etc (original lore was having to take on Squats, IIRC) Mark 3 as a variant.

 

By mid crusade, Mark 2 & 3 is wearing out, and hard to repair or replace on the move. So Mark 4 designed to take advantage of newly recovered STC technology and advanced materials, and a big upgrade - arguably one the highest quality designs of power armour, but parts not backwards compatible. Logistics dictate that only major forge worlds can make it, and you need to get a whole suit, so big push to make enough to resupply all legions from major hubs. Horus influences the distribution, so his favoured legions are supplied with lots of Mark 4 and spares, while future loyalist legions are stuck mostly making do with their Mark 2 & 3, waiting for their 'turn'.

 

Nearing the end of the crusade, Mark 6 (called Mark 5 at the time) was intended to replace Mark 4, as a post Crusade design; more Mark 4.5, given the compatibility with Mark 4, but upgraded auto senses and solid knee plate, plus the dual-technology circuits and redundant power cables.

 

My head canon here (not general lore) is that Mark 6 was designed precisely because of Horus' games with Mark 4 deployment. The logistics of relying on huge supplies of power armour from a relatively few high tech forge worlds wasn't working, so there was a decision to switch to a more distributed model of power armour manufacture.  We know Mark 6 can be made to as high a standard as Mark 4, but crucially, the dual-technology circuits meant that if advanced STC capabilities or materials, or logistics around same *weren't* available, it could be made with easier to obtain materials and facilities, allowing manufacture much closer to the legions from minor forge worlds, or by the legions themselves, albeit at a slightly reduced performance.

 

We know Pertubo, and other Horus loyalists tried to screw the field test by giving it to the under strength Raven Guard - what if that was because they specifically saw the risk of Mark 6 becoming widespread among the loyalists, thus bypassing their sneaky Mark 4 stockpiling advantage?

 

Anyway, that backfired, and Mark 6 passed the field test with the Raven Guard with flying colours, and went into full production as the Mark 4 replacement as the post Crusade design. We also know the Alpha Legion got their hands on a bunch of prototype Mark 6.

 

A couple of months later, the Heresy starts at Istvaan III with the purging of the loyalists from the Sons of Horus, Death Guard, Emperor's Children and World Eaters. Istvaan V follows, with the Iron Hands, Salamanders and Raven Guard betrayed, with Iron Warriors, the Alpha Legion, the Word Bearers and the Night Lords turning coat and helping crush the loyalist legions.

 

So at that point - the loyalists were still stuck with a lot of mark 2/3, while the traitors would have had a lot Mark 4 available (unless they preferred 2/3). Raven Guard and Alpha Legion have a lot of Mark 6. *Some* Mark 6 prototypes would be available generally. But having say, a World Eaters Heresy force entirely equipped with Mark 6 on Istvaan III or V would be pretty odd, though you could argue your particular company drew the short straw and they had to use the lighter armoured 6 prototypes.

 

After that point, and for the rest of the early-mid heresy, it's a mess; traitors would have access to more Mark 6 from scavenging from the Raven Guard and Alpha Legion dead. The remnants of the shattered legions would be fast tracked for resupply, those would be Mark 6 as that's what's now in wide-scale production, as Mark 4 has largely ceased production.

 

However, resupply for basically everyone would be trashed. The Heresy, including the Dark Mechanicum uprising has just smashed universe-wide logistics, manufacture and resupply, so whatever they currently had (mark 2, 3 or 4) would be hard to get parts for, and repair for all 3 types are hard and/or require advanced resources. Since Mark 6 has only just started production, there's not much of that available either in the early Heresy. So shoddily made parts of power armour using whatever was available (obsolete, vunerable heavy power cables, studded armour for extra layers abound everywhere etc), and whatever local variants there are, as well as bodging together scavenged bits from other marks. Mark 4 chest plate with mark 2 arms and mark 6 legs? Mark 5 is born, Mark 6 gets officially renamed. So early to mid heresy, we have basically everything from Mark 2 to 6 in play, with Mark 5 probably become most common as the conflict wears on, either bodged together other marks or 'production' mark 5 with the studs and cables.

 

As the heresy continues though, and the easy to make dual-technology circuits allow Mark 6 production to continue to ramp up over the years wherever there's any sort of production facility, areas of resupply stabilise, and all legions are recruiting like mad to replace casualties, it seems inevitable that Mark 6 will come to dominate by the late heresy, i.e. nearing the siege of terra. Mark 2, 3 and 4 would still be about, but increasingly as parts of defacto Mark 5. And would you rather have a bodged together inferior mark 5 or a shiny new set of Mark 6, even if it's had a few compromises like the studded shoulder?

 

So by the late Heresy, and the siege of Terra, Mark 6 should be common, though not the only suits about. And of course, Mark 7 prototypes salvaged in the retreat from Mars for resupply of some of the loyalists at the siege itself.

 

So it basically depends what part of the heresy your force is from for maximum fluff; Mostly Mark 2, 3 or 4 for early heresy, limited Mark 6 (except RG and AL); mid heresy, more mark 6, lots of mark 5; end of heresy/siege of terra, lots of Mark 6 all round, some mark 7 for loyalists at the siege and scouring. Given we're now at the siege book-wise, it seems entirely appropriate for Mark 6 in plastic, plus it's gotta be super popular from the nostalgia crowd - a good way to get more people in for the relaunch (I still have my original RTB01 marines, as well as (first gen Epic) Space Marine, so beaky-love from me).

 

Mark 5 or Mark 2 in plastic would be great, but are hard to do well in plastic (all those undercuts) - imagine the half-melted edge studs from Mark 4, but all over Mark 5 'production' armour; yuk. The Mark 6 shoulder is in two parts I believe specifically so they could do the studs justice, and that's hard for a whole suit! I think we'll still get one of them, if not both, if heresy 2.0 proves popular.

 

The only completely anachronistic marks would be mark 7 before the end of the heresy, or any mark 10 at all, bar some serious warp timey-wimey schenanigans. But then, people can always overlook that for friendly games, e.g. their opponent is putting together what they have, don't like old squat firstborn scale etc etc, just as some people like to go primaris-size or bigger truescale.

[BitsHammer]

 

Speaking if marks I've been lured into the Night Lords thanks to the siren song of ADB's writing and been putting heavy consideration into playing them but have been waffling if I'd want MkIV, MkVI, or MkVI with the skull helms from FW.

Nightlords look great in mark 6. I remember this old piece of art from I think 4th edition chaos book? Shows a Nightlord in mark 6 looking totally uncorrupted like he'd just walked straight out of the heresy and to me that's how I've always viewed them since.

 

Found it, and yeah that looks pretty good actually.

[BitsHammer]

The only place in the Heresy I can see mark 6 being somewhat anachronistic (other than on raven guard/alpha legon) would be Istvaan; and even then, some prototypes were available, so there'd be *some* suits available even there.

 

Timeline for ages has been:

Mark 2 created on Terra near end of Age of Strife on Mars in preparation for the Great Crusade, most advanced they could build (but complex, e.g. the microscopic rings). Due to challenges in the early Crusade in tunnel fighting, boarding actions etc (original lore was having to take on Squats, IIRC) Mark 3 as a variant.

 

By mid crusade, Mark 2 & 3 is wearing out, and hard to repair or replace on the move. So Mark 4 designed to take advantage of newly recovered STC technology and advanced materials, and a big upgrade - arguably one the highest quality designs of power armour, but parts not backwards compatible. Logistics dictate that only major forge worlds can make it, and you need to get a whole suit, so big push to make enough to resupply all legions from major hubs. Horus influences the distribution, so his favoured legions are supplied with lots of Mark 4 and spares, while future loyalist legions are stuck mostly making do with their Mark 2 & 3, waiting for their 'turn'.

 

Nearing the end of the crusade, Mark 6 (called Mark 5 at the time) was intended to replace Mark 4, as a post Crusade design; more Mark 4.5, given the compatibility with Mark 4, but upgraded auto senses and solid knee plate, plus the dual-technology circuits and redundant power cables.

 

My head canon here (not general lore) is that Mark 6 was designed precisely because of Horus' games with Mark 4 deployment. The logistics of relying on huge supplies of power armour from a relatively few high tech forge worlds wasn't working, so there was a decision to switch to a more distributed model of power armour manufacture.  We know Mark 6 can be made to as high a standard as Mark 4, but crucially, the dual-technology circuits meant that if advanced STC capabilities or materials, or logistics around same *weren't* available, it could be made with easier to obtain materials and facilities, allowing manufacture much closer to the legions from minor forge worlds, or by the legions themselves, albeit at a slightly reduced performance.

 

We know Pertubo, and other Horus loyalists tried to screw the field test by giving it to the under strength Raven Guard - what if that was because they specifically saw the risk of Mark 6 becoming widespread among the loyalists, thus bypassing their sneaky Mark 4 stockpiling advantage?

 

Anyway, that backfired, and Mark 6 passed the field test with the Raven Guard with flying colours, and went into full production as the Mark 4 replacement as the post Crusade design. We also know the Alpha Legion got their hands on a bunch of prototype Mark 6.

 

A couple of months later, the Heresy starts at Istvaan III with the purging of the loyalists from the Sons of Horus, Death Guard, Emperor's Children and World Eaters. Istvaan V follows, with the Iron Hands, Salamanders and Raven Guard betrayed, with Iron Warriors, the Alpha Legion, the Word Bearers and the Night Lords turning coat and helping crush the loyalist legions.

 

So at that point - the loyalists were still stuck with a lot of mark 2/3, while the traitors would have had a lot Mark 4 available (unless they preferred 2/3). Raven Guard and Alpha Legion have a lot of Mark 6. *Some* Mark 6 prototypes would be available generally. But having say, a World Eaters Heresy force entirely equipped with Mark 6 on Istvaan III or V would be pretty odd, though you could argue your particular company drew the short straw and they had to use the lighter armoured 6 prototypes.

 

After that point, and for the rest of the early-mid heresy, it's a mess; traitors would have access to more Mark 6 from scavenging from the Raven Guard and Alpha Legion dead. The remnants of the shattered legions would be fast tracked for resupply, those would be Mark 6 as that's what's now in wide-scale production, as Mark 4 has largely ceased production.

 

However, resupply for basically everyone would be trashed. The Heresy, including the Dark Mechanicum uprising has just smashed universe-wide logistics, manufacture and resupply, so whatever they currently had (mark 2, 3 or 4) would be hard to get parts for, and repair for all 3 types are hard and/or require advanced resources. Since Mark 6 has only just started production, there's not much of that available either in the early Heresy. So shoddily made parts of power armour using whatever was available (obsolete, vunerable heavy power cables, studded armour for extra layers abound everywhere etc), and whatever local variants there are, as well as bodging together scavenged bits from other marks. Mark 4 chest plate with mark 2 arms and mark 6 legs? Mark 5 is born, Mark 6 gets officially renamed. So early to mid heresy, we have basically everything from Mark 2 to 6 in play, with Mark 5 probably become most common as the conflict wears on, either bodged together other marks or 'production' mark 5 with the studs and cables.

 

As the heresy continues though, and the easy to make dual-technology circuits allow Mark 6 production to continue to ramp up over the years wherever there's any sort of production facility, areas of resupply stabilise, and all legions are recruiting like mad to replace casualties, it seems inevitable that Mark 6 will come to dominate by the late heresy, i.e. nearing the siege of terra. Mark 2, 3 and 4 would still be about, but increasingly as parts of defacto Mark 5. And would you rather have a bodged together inferior mark 5 or a shiny new set of Mark 6, even if it's had a few compromises like the studded shoulder?

 

So by the late Heresy, and the siege of Terra, Mark 6 should be common, though not the only suits about. And of course, Mark 7 prototypes salvaged in the retreat from Mars for resupply of some of the loyalists at the siege itself.

 

So it basically depends what part of the heresy your force is from for maximum fluff; Mostly Mark 2, 3 or 4 for early heresy, limited Mark 6 (except RG and AL); mid heresy, more mark 6, lots of mark 5; end of heresy/siege of terra, lots of Mark 6 all round, some mark 7 for loyalists at the siege and scouring. Given we're now at the siege book-wise, it seems entirely appropriate for Mark 6 in plastic, plus it's gotta be super popular from the nostalgia crowd - a good way to get more people in for the relaunch (I still have my original RTB01 marines, as well as (first gen Epic) Space Marine, so beaky-love from me).

 

Mark 5 or Mark 2 in plastic would be great, but are hard to do well in plastic (all those undercuts) - imagine the half-melted edge studs from Mark 4, but all over Mark 5 'production' armour; yuk. The Mark 6 shoulder is in two parts I believe specifically so they could do the studs justice, and that's hard for a whole suit! I think we'll still get one of them, if not both, if heresy 2.0 proves popular.

 

The only completely anachronistic marks would be mark 7 before the end of the heresy, or any mark 10 at all, bar some serious warp timey-wimey schenanigans. But then, people can always overlook that for friendly games, e.g. their opponent is putting together what they have, don't like old squat firstborn scale etc etc, just as some people like to go primaris-size or bigger truescale.

I just want to tag onto this and point out that in legions of hundreds of thousand of Astartes, unless you've amassed a couple chapters, whatever you do is just a drop in the bucket and you can basically get away with anything because "limited numbers" across 100+ thousand Astartes can still be quite high.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Fulkes

[Gorgoff]

The only place in the Heresy I can see mark 6 being somewhat anachronistic (other than on raven guard/alpha legon) would be Istvaan; and even then, some prototypes were available, so there'd be *some* suits available even there.

 

SNIP

Okay, you've convinced me.

Great explanation.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Gorgoff

[Arkhanist]

3

I just want to tag onto this and point out that in legions of hundreds of thousand of Astartes, unless you've amassed a couple chapters, whatever you do is just a drop in the bucket and you can basically get away with anything because "limited numbers" across 100+ thousand Astartes can still be quite high.

You're absolutely right, I should have added that. While the mark ratios would apply generally across the whole legion depending upon stage of the heresy, individual formations could easily have any of marks 2 to 6 in any ratio that you personally prefer post-Istvaan, and even 6 at Istvaan is justifiable with a little stretch.

 

100% Mark 2 or 3 in a siege of terra force? They like it, and have skilled artificers capable of maintaining it, and scavage that by preference; or a loyalist/great crusade force that's gone straight to Terra and hasn't had a chance to resupply yet. Mark 6 very early heresy? They lucked out and got an early shipment from a minor forge world right after it went into full scale production, or if traitor, scavenged a bunch from Istvaan V (or are RG/AL). 100% mark 4? They resupplied from a stranded stockpile that never got shipped once they switched to making mark 6, or if traitor, they just got a bunch of it pre-heresy. 100% mark 5? Ragtag force making do with whatever they can lay their hands on as they advance/fall back/defend to the last at any point once everything kicks off. And any mix between.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I think they visually wanted to separate Early Heresy from Late Heresy as well, and this does a great job at that.

 

Like how in many historical games there's early war/mid war/late war representations.

 

But the only thing that makes sense is by a few years in, pretty much all new power armor production is MK VI and MK V.

[BitsHammer]

In my efforts to find MkVI Night Lords I stumbled upon this from when HH Book 9 was announced in 2020:

I was partial to the MkIV because it's the most commonly seen version, but with the scale difference in models I admit I was looking at MkVI a bit more because I like models being a bit larger and chunkier for painting reasons and I'm warming up to it a fair bit.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Fulkes

[WrathOfTheLion]

That image is in book 9, there's a pretty cool Firewing Seeker one towards the back as well.

[MegaVolt87]

Some older lore, but I can't find the exact sources- Mk III was still relevant because it was the most resistant power armour to regular bolter fire, but high/ inefficient power consumption. Mk IV had a minor self repair ability no other power armour seems to have or replicate. 

[Petitioner's City]

I always wished people looked more at Neil Roberts's excellent work for heresy. No artwork is a photograph, nor indeed is any model, but I loved that he included beakies in covers such as Prospero (005.M31):

 

 

 

And a Thousand Sons:

 

 

Even "earlier" we have Horus Rising:

 

 

We have beakies on The Purge, set prior to the heresy:

 

 

There is even an Iron Hands beakie on Fulgrim's cover

 

 

Other random beakies from his art:

 

 

 

 

And of course some Raven Guard beakies during the heresy - but as seen above, we see Beakies much "earlier" and across many legions:

 

 

Beakies beakies everywhere!

 

Edit: My key point here is that mkvi has felt for me as much a part of the heresy as any other armour mark, in part because of significant visual resources like Neil's fantastic work, going all the way back to 2005. His art is a vocabulary of the heresy that is as meaningful as the text in the books, the miniatures, the plate art work in the black books, Visions of Heresy and sources going back to c1990. None are "real" as such, as I said, they aren't photographs - but they present a language of what connotes heresy to me, and I'm sure for many others.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Petitioner's City

[The Scorpion]

Agree. The black books are good, but people need to stop taking them as ghospel, especially when the black books themselves only described things in terms of general trends precisely to allow for full single-mark armies, including Mk6.

[Petitioner's City]

Agree. The black books are good, but people need to stop taking them as ghospel, especially when the black books themselves only described things in terms of general trends precisely to allow for full single-mark armies, including Mk6.

 

And of course the black books are overtly "unreliable" - they wear their untrustworthiness on their shoulder, they are Victorian "grand narrative" history books. Bligh - and his collaborators, Hoare, French, Wyllie, et al. and successors - were so good at writing that mode - but sometimes we kind of forget that these aren't investigative texts, nor are they omniscient. They are telling us stories. It means they make overt that information in them can't be taken as a given, and arguably some parts are (depending on what you trust more) "inventions" - their telling of Chondax, for example, doesn't mesh well with Scars, and makes the contents in Malovolence more clearly a grand, almost hagiographic narrative than a piece of investigative historiography, or a god's eye view of events. To an extent the often bombastic tone throughout the books - and the lack of primary source material contained within or analysed within - the black books also adds to that lack of reliability, these "grand narratives" which aren't analytic history.

 

Which fits with what John French tells us of the intentions behind some of Bligh's writing - to write like the Romans or Victorians: "'Well I want it to feel a bit like the Romano Germanic boarder under Augustus, you know?' And he put all of this to use. You could say 'Shall we make it read a bit like a late Victorian history book?' when talking about a project, and he would reply 'Ah, yes, but, there is a thing...' and then suggest a specific slant on the suggestion, because he knew both exactly what late Victorian history books were like, but also that what you actually meant were those books that were written specifically to illustrate the growth of the British Empire. It was head-spinning, but it was the best fun you could have when making things up for a living."  We see this in Badab, and clearly in the heresy too.

 

Of course, all media is media, and thus mediates/fictionalises/invents - that's part of the fun

Edited April 19, 2022 by Petitioner's City

[Chaeron]

All this discussion reminds me of the new Tactical squad for 3rd Edition and wanting to save the 'beaky' helmet that came with it for a truly special Space Marine due to its comparative rarity at the time in sets. Then, the studded shoulder pad in later releases... And then you ended up never using them 'just in case' there was a better option later :lol:.

 

I confess, with the Heresy now, it's far more about making the best models and trying not to hoard specific bits. Anyone else do the same previously? I hope like the other plastic Mark kits there'll be lots of spare options for customisation.

[Spagunk]

Closest I came was always trying to match mk6 stuff together. Some things slipped onto other bodies but I made my level best to always have beakies decked out as much as possible in mk6 garb.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Spagunk