State of the Union (Heresy)

[SkimaskMohawk]

It's interesting, but unless there's ever any clarification on the exact significance and definition of the Palatine Aquila, I would assume that the important part of the EC being able to wear it is that they're allowed to wear it on their chests, being their most prominent and forward-facing piece of armor.

 

So, it's probably fine to put on coins and on standards - and more generally after the war starts and the EC defect.

From what I can tell, no, the award of the palatine Aquila isn't just for the chest of the Emperor's children. It's access to the symbol where it previously was locked to the Custodes and the emperors household. There's a reason why we've literally never seen a palatine outside the EC.

 

But you know, the new direction and all that. Goes along with the oddly proportioned and embellished praetors.

[BitsHammer]

Maybe we'll see a lore addition that it was given to the loyalists for their loyalty to the Emperor?

[WrathOfTheLion]

That would be my guess, I thought once the EC were noted as traitors, the loyalists were awarded it? It certainly wouldn't be an honor that was kept to the EC legion after Istvaan I'd think.

 

A quick lookup on lore sites (may not be totally accurate) says it was being adopted by loyalist Legions towards late heresy, so a cursory inspection looks like it would be indicative of late-heresy loyalist insignia, or at the very least has been noted as such before in the lore.

 

Either way, can just not glue it on if it's an optional decorative bit.

Edited April 22, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[BitsHammer]

That would be my guess, I thought once the EC were noted as traitors, the loyalists were awarded it? It certainly wouldn't be an honor that was kept to the EC legion after Istvaan I'd think.

 

A quick lookup on lore sites (may not be totally accurate) says it was being adopted by loyalist Legions towards late heresy, so a cursory inspection looks like it would be indicative of late-heresy loyalist insignia, or at the very least has been noted as such before in the lore.

 

Either way, can just not glue it on if it's an optional decorative bit.

According to Massacre Night Lords were wearing aquilas on Istvaan 5 ([spoilers] gets his cracked during the fight) so it might have been in response to the open rebellion, but without an official lore nod somewhere I'm just guessing.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The imperialis was adopted in the late heresy as a symbol of loyalty, as the scene goes in slaves to darkness. The palatine isn't the imperialis; loyalists didn't get to use it instead of the EC in the current lore.

[Ripper.McGuirl]

I was under the impression (possibly wrong), that the EC were the only ones that could use it as THEIR heraldry, as opposed to just showing allegiance with it.

[spessmarine]

That should help make it easier to get a feel for the size of the new MkVI.

Pretty big vehicle, looks like scale didn't jump drastically as it is roughly the size of the resin one? Pretty faithful recreation.

[Dark Legionnare]

That should help make it easier to get a feel for the size of the new MkVI.

Pretty big vehicle, looks like scale didn't jump drastically as it is roughly the size of the resin one? Pretty faithful recreation.

Judging by the termies alongside, pretty spot-on Spartan scale. Looks to be the same as my resin one.

Edited April 22, 2022 by Dark Legionnare

[UtariOnzo]

Very very happy with how the kit looks, love the mkII crewman (wonder if that means we’re getting all the marks in revamped plastic?)

 

After the praetors dropped it, this has increased my desire to get the starter box

[Bung]

Didnt the Land Raider Doors fit the resin Spartan?

Maybe they kept it that way and you can use Forgeworld / third party doors to Show your real allegiance.

 

If not it should be easy to scale LR Doors to fit with a 3d printer, so either a friend, yourself or a third party will offer them soon after release.

 

So i dont see the need to complain.

[Gorgoff]

 

 

Wonder why they felt the need to put the Aquila in the Spartan kit?

To give people the option of showing their allegiance on what may be their flagship vehicle? The article also says that there’s a Eye of Horus for traitors too.

He might be talking about the fact that it's the palatine itself, and not one of the knockoffs of general imperial allegiance.

Exactly.

I didn't explain it because I wanted to see how many people know that. I guess the targeted New customers don't know and therefore I have my answer why they put it on the spartan in the first place.

Edit: I don’t judge. Just wanted to know

Edited April 22, 2022 by Gorgoff

[TrawlingCleaner]

Did the Palatine Aquila not open up to Loyalists after the start of the Heresy to help ID loyalists? Or am I mis-remembering that?

[Gorgoff]

Did the Palatine Aquila not open up to Loyalists after the start of the Heresy to help ID loyalists? Or am I mis-remembering that?

I thought after Terra during scoring

[MichaelCarmine]

I don't think, that there is a real "date" for that, but i also thought, it was kind of mentioned after Istvaan, during the Heresy but definitely before Terra.

Edit: though i could confuse it with the Aquila Imperialis...

Edited April 22, 2022 by MichaelCarmine

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

I don't think that is the palatine Aquila, given it's identical to the standard Aquila that's been used in the black books before the generic space marine lists since the start of the series. Admittedly, there's isn't *much* that distinguishes the palatine from the standard Aquila in the overall design, but it appears to be: curve along the top of the wings, additional detailing inside the central chest 'diamond' and internal cutouts to distinguish the flat sections/ feathers rather than bevelling between them - also there's of course the very obvious feature of the lightning bolts only appearing on the standard Aquila

Edited April 22, 2022 by Iron Hands Fanatic

[WrathOfTheLion]

In the article, they call it an Imperial Acquila as well, so I'm inclined to believe you've got it spot on.

 

 

 

The Spartan’s impenetrable – and more importantly, flat – armour panels provide the perfect canvas for customising your carrier with the iconography of your chosen Legion, and the kit includes sigils to show your allegiance with the Imperial Aquila or the Eye of Horus.

[lansalt]

This is supposed to be the actual Palatine Aquila used by the EC.



As you can see, it's the same used by custodes in their armour (normally in the legs), the main features being the wings tips turned upwards (not straight to the sides) and the central diamond-shaped body. Sometimes it has the stylized lightning bolts and sometimes not.

The one in the new Spartan is clearly the same to me, so unless GW has decided it no longer matters, it means that this precise aquila icon would only be fit for the EC. That, or the custodes got a sweet new ride
 

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

This is supposed to be the actual Palatine Aquila used by the EC.

 

 

As you can see, it's the same used by custodes in their armour (normally in the legs), the main features being the wings tips turned upwards (not straight to the sides) and the central diamond-shaped body. Sometimes it has the stylized lightning bolts and sometimes not.

 

The one in the new Spartan is clearly the same to me, so unless GW has decided it no longer matters, it means that this precise aquila icon would only be fit for the EC. That, or the custodes got a sweet new ride

 

 

it's not the same icon: it has neither the curved tops of the wings or the same body detailing you just described:

Edited April 22, 2022 by Iron Hands Fanatic

[lansalt]

 

This is supposed to be the actual Palatine Aquila used by the EC.

 

 

As you can see, it's the same used by custodes in their armour (normally in the legs), the main features being the wings tips turned upwards (not straight to the sides) and the central diamond-shaped body. Sometimes it has the stylized lightning bolts and sometimes not.

 

The one in the new Spartan is clearly the same to me, so unless GW has decided it no longer matters, it means that this precise aquila icon would only be fit for the EC. That, or the custodes got a sweet new ride

 

 

it's not the same icon: it has neither the curved tops of the wings or the same body detailing you just described:

 

Yes, it's not identical. As I said there are variations, but the key features are the raised wingtips and the romboid body. The aquila in the Spartan is the same as the one featured in the first Black Book to illustrate the sections making reference to the Emperor, and it was in that same book where the "Palatine Aquila" as such was first defined to differentiate it from the generic Imperial Eagle (the previous version of the story told in WD's Index Astartes). As far I know, that specific aquila hasn't been used in any other model before, and his book appearances are tied always to text talking about the Emperor itself.

Of course, maybe from now on it has been soft retconned to be a generic loyalist 30k aquila variant with no more meaning.

 

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

 

 

This is supposed to be the actual Palatine Aquila used by the EC.

 

 

As you can see, it's the same used by custodes in their armour (normally in the legs), the main features being the wings tips turned upwards (not straight to the sides) and the central diamond-shaped body. Sometimes it has the stylized lightning bolts and sometimes not.

 

The one in the new Spartan is clearly the same to me, so unless GW has decided it no longer matters, it means that this precise aquila icon would only be fit for the EC. That, or the custodes got a sweet new ride

 

 

it's not the same icon: it has neither the curved tops of the wings or the same body detailing you just described:

 

Yes, it's not identical. As I said there are variations, but the key features are the raised wingtips and the romboid body. The aquila in the Spartan is the same as the one featured in the first Black Book to illustrate the sections making reference to the Emperor, and it was in that same book where the "Palatine Aquila" as such was first defined to differentiate it from the generic Imperial Eagle (the previous version of the story told in WD's Index Astartes). As far I know, that specific aquila hasn't been used in any other model before, and his book appearances are tied always to text talking about the Emperor itself.

Of course, maybe from now on it has been soft retconned to be a generic loyalist 30k aquila variant with no more meaning.

 

 

 

see, the differentiating factor to me with regards to the palatine aquila's body is that the talons are tucked *inside* the diamond body, whereas the standard aquila has them external - otherwise the relic contemptor for example would have been carrying the palatine aquila pretty much since the game's inception:

 

 

It also features on a bunch of titans, and with the advent of Adeptus Titanicus has been used together with eye of horus armour panels to indicate loyalist/ traitor allegiance as on the spartan, e.g:

 

[lansalt]

I don't buy the contemptor's eagle being the same, but you're right that the one in the warhound titan is 100% the same. Man, now I have to find info about it, since I'm don't know much about AT... Maybe some legios got the same honor as the EC at some point?

[Petitioner's City]

Lansalt I really think you are misreading the spartan eagle - I don't think it looks at all close to the IIIrd legion's eagle, as Iron Hands Fanatic has shown well. And in AT, the eagle chassis is pretty generic (again as IHF lets us know) - it isn't the same honour as that given to the IIIrd.

 

To really emphasise what IHF showed above:

 

This ... 

 

 

is the same as this:

 

 

 

This 

 

 

is not the same as this:

 

 

or bottom-right below:

 

 

I think you are perhaps needing to look closer - the Spartan/Titan eagle does not have curved wings, whereas that E'C one does. 

 

Thank you to IHF for collecting all these images, they are very nice to see :)

[Cactus]

I always thought that the Palatine Aquila was never precisely defined so as to avoid these kind of "it's got the wong wings" debates. I guess it didn't work out that way. :rolleyes:

[lansalt]

Lansalt I really think you are misreading the spartan eagle

Welp, you are right. I was going by the description in the 1st black book, but I just realized that this aquila has been used for years as the loyalist icon in all kinds of media and ads:

 

 

I don't think the specific curvature or not of the wings is relevant, just that the wing tips are upwards, but the lack of lightning bolts in the EC version is a clear heraldic difference and more or less matches the one in custodes armour legs.

 

I guess at some point it was decided to use this symbol for the loyalists in media instead of the Imperialis, which came later in the war and maybe reminds people more of 40k.

[BitsHammer]

To muddy this all further: Mark II had the Aquila (albiet the Imperialis version we know from 40k) on their belt buckles:


Plus the single headed variant is on the Imperial Fists legion transfer sheet too:


I think when you sift this all out the answer is that much like real life iconography the rules varied a fair bit over time and the rules aren't as clearly defined as we think. I mean who knows, maybe the stylized sideways aquila is the Palantine variant and the curved variant often seen on the EC was a variant of the Imperialis?

Iconography is both something GW/FW has been very precise and vague about at the same time.

Edited April 22, 2022 by Fulkes