State of the Union (Heresy)

[Slips]

My only Volkite Squads were HSS Squads who got Tank Hunter for being IF HSS. The trade off of Tank Hunter on 40 S6 shots was worth way more than +1BS because it meant being able to just erase anything with AV12 they shot at even if they had to snap fire like at aircraft.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I mean, fists still don't get the bonus for volkites. Or plasma. Or melta. Or missiles.

 

No legion gets a rule that has 100% uptime. They all have a niche they excel at, and they all have an area they don't get any bonus in.

 

It seems that a lot of people who are suggesting rules are useless, or unthematic, or otherwise needed changing don't actually play the legions they're criticizing. Like, no one mentioned word bearers, sallies, or death guard; they talk about fists and IW and even night lords (as if fear is their trait).

 

Very odd.

[LameBeard]

I mean, fists still don't get the bonus for volkites. Or plasma. Or melta. Or missiles.

 

No legion gets a rule that has 100% uptime. They all have a niche they excel at, and they all have an area they don't get any bonus in.

.

If this is in response to me, then that’s what I’m saying: I’m not *asking* for a bonus to volkites. I’m saying a bonus to bolters is more than a niche, because bolters are pretty widespread. Just like the World Eater upgrade to chain swords is more than a niche. These are potentially very powerful upgrades and I wouldn’t mind if Legion rules (in general, so it’s fair across the board) were a bit *more* niche. Maybe the Salamanders/Death Guard flamer bonuses are good examples - not quite so widespread, nice encouragement to take a few, but you’re unlikely to want *every* model in your army have a flamer.

 

 

<please someone prove me wrong and post a picture of their all-flamer army>

Edited April 30, 2022 by LameBeard

[Slips]

I mean, fists still don't get the bonus for volkites. Or plasma. Or melta. Or missiles.

 

No legion gets a rule that has 100% uptime. They all have a niche they excel at, and they all have an area they don't get any bonus in.

 

It seems that a lot of people who are suggesting rules are useless, or unthematic, or otherwise needed changing don't actually play the legions they're criticizing. Like, no one mentioned word bearers, sallies, or death guard; they talk about fists and IW and even night lords (as if fear is their trait).

 

Very odd.

With respect to that, here's a shorthand of all 18 LA:X from current HH:

 

• Dark Angels:
  • +1 to hit on equal weapon skill when fighting with swords
  • Cannot benefit from leadership of non LA:DA or Sire:DA units
• Emperors Children:
  • All units get Crusader and +1 init in challenges
  • +1 init on charges; unless disordered
  • Must issue/accept challenges
• Iron Warriors:
  • Opponent may force Turn 6 instead of rolling random length
  • Do not suffer morale from shooting and can re-roll failed Pinning.
  • Grenades and Meltabombs get Wrecker
• White Scars:
  • Units that move a full 6" away from where they started (or 12" if vehicle/bike) can re-roll failed wound rolls of 1 until the start of players next turn
  • +1 to seize the initiative and first reserve roll of each turn
  • Skilled Rider if you have a bike or jetbike
  • Cannot have more Heavy Support than Fast Attack
• Space Wolves:
  • +1WS if they charged; gain counter attack and must sweep if they won combat or being charged 
  • +1 to run and consolidation to non jump pack or TDA infantry
  • Night Vision, Acute Senses and 18" anti-infiltrate bubble
  • Only Centurions, Praetors and Named ICs can be Compulsory selections
    • Must take 1HQ per 1k points regardless of Force Org chart maximum; even in allied detachments
    • Chaplains, Libbies and Primus Medicae are replaced by Priests of Fenris
    • Only Grey Slayerscan be taken as compulsory troops by any Space Wolves detachment
• Imperial Fists:
  • HSS have Tank Hunters; all infantry get +1BS with Boltguns
  • Cannot choose to fail morale checks; characters must issue challenges and can reroll 1s to hit in challenges
  • Immunity to pinning in Cover or fortifications/barricades 
  • Opponent can force turn 6
• Night Lords:
  • +1 to wound and hit if they outnumber in CC
  • All models fall back +1", may choose to fall back instead of getting pinned.
  • Everything has Night Vision (even dreads)
  • +5 Cover on first turn of a game
  • If warlord dies, all units make a morale check as if 25% casualties
• Blood Angels:
  • +1 to wound in CC
  • Must sweep, can never voluntarily go to ground
  • Cannot take more Vehicles than units with LA:BA
• Iron Hands:
  • -1S to shooting attacks against them
  • Must pass an LD test to sweep or run, cannot go to ground
  • Cannot have more units with Jump, Bikes or Jetbikes than infantry
• World Eaters:
  • Reroll to-wound of 1s on charge. Characters get +1WS in chalenges
  • Must consolidate towards nearest enemy they can hurt. If they fail a morale check, on a 4+ they count as passing and gain rage.
    • Can be replaced with (Traitors only): units have Rage, must sweep, cannot go to ground and must consolidate towards nearest enemy they can hurt.
  • WE Apothecaries allow a unit to get +1A on all models but roll 1d6 per model. On a 1, model is removed from play (does not work on characters)
• Ultramarines:
  • Re-roll 1s to wound or armor pen vs units that have already been hit by another UM unit. May reroll failed charges against units already locked in combat with a UM unit.
  • Make regroup and fear tests at Ld10
  • If the warlord is slain, each unit without an IC makes an immediate pinning test. If all HQs are slain, enemy gets +1VP
    • If Robute is in the army and dies, even units with ICs make the pinning test and gets +1VP even if there are still other HQ units left.
• Death Guard:
  • Immune to Fear, autopass Pinning
  • Reroll failed dangerous terrain; 4+ FNP vs poison and fleshbane
  • -1 to sweeping
• Thousand Sons:
  • Army Warlord MUST have at least PML:1 and have the highest LD
  • Psykers have access to all disciplines except malefic; any HQ IC can but ML1 and exchange a power for force weapon
  • Cult Arcana (its a lot)
  • Any unit that suffers Perils makes every LA:TS unit take a pinning check. If all ICs are slain, detachment gets -1Ld (this bypasses stubborn) and may no longer Sweep
• Sons of Horus:
  • Reroll reserve rolls of 1
  • At init step 1, if outnumbering the enemy, may make a single extra attack if they have already fought (so units with Unwieldy weapons need not apply)
  • +1BS if shooting within 12" with Pistol, Rapid Fire or Assault; does not affect Snapshots, Overwatch or FotL
  • Cannot benefit from an Ally's Warlord Trait or Ld
• Word Bearers:
  • Roll 3d6 for morale and pick the lowest two (does not work vs Fear or pinning)
  • Must always sweep and re-roll sweeps of 1
  • Primary Detachment must have a 2nd Compulsory HQ that is a Chaplain or Centurion
• Salamanders:
  • Auto-pass Fear, must reroll 1d6 on failed morale and pinning
  • Hand, Normal and Heavy Flamers get +1S and enemy flame weapons are -1S when shooting salamanders
  • Cannot add initiative to Sweep if they win. Reduce run and charge distances by 1" to a minimum of 1"
  • No Moritat or Destroyers or Phosphex
• Raven Guard:
  • Non TDA or Jump Infantry gets Infiltrate and Fleet; TDA and Jump gets Furious Charge.
  • May not take more tanks than infantry
• Alpha Legion:
  • Choose either: Scout, Infiltrate, Tank Hunters, Counter Attack, Move Through Cover or Adamantium Will
  • If LA:AL Primary detachment has more destroyed units than your enemy at the end of the game, they get +1VP

[LameBeard]

Not sure who mentioned Fear and Night Lords but that comes from Trophies of Judgement (available to independent characters) and Terror squads, so they have access to it, but not through LA:NL.

[Slips]

People have definitely conflated Wargear selections and RoW Bonuses with some Legiones Astartes Rules because of how frequently they are all taken together.

[LameBeard]

Yes I guess I did that myself with the chain axes. Thanks to your list I also see my World Eater rules are not the most recent.

[Arkhanist]

I started World Eaters - having a free chainaxe is great. +1 S for a huge chunk of your force and a distinctive weapon that reflects the lore. But chain axes are £17.50 for 5 from Forgeworld. Seems a bit of a tax to be a competitive/fluffy player - I might just stick with chain swords for most - they look nearly as good…

 

Traitor World Eaters without chainaxes, yikes! I'm 3d printing mine because that's what I got my resin one for (bits and bases). But there's plenty of variety on shapeways too that are cheaper, e.g. these by red warden, and pop goes the monkey has a bunch, e.g. these. If you want to stick to GW, there's some good axes from 40k bezerkers and AoS blood warriors that fit a late heresy world eaters force nicely.

 

(the leak for the traitors still had WE able to swap any chainsword for a chainaxe for free in addition to their other rules in heresy 2.0)

Edited April 30, 2022 by Arkhanist

[bushman101]

Random question on plasma (and those who have seen the leaked profiles)

 

Shouldn't plasma be 'fixed' in HH, similar to how it works in 40k? Meaning no 'gets hot' unless overcharged.

From what I recall, 40k Guilliman 'fixed' 40k plasma to its former function. So.....should plasma still Gets Hot in Heresy?

[Slips]

Random question on plasma (and those who have seen the leaked profiles)

 

Shouldn't plasma be 'fixed' in HH, similar to how it works in 40k? Meaning no 'gets hot' unless overcharged.

From what I recall, 40k Guilliman 'fixed' 40k plasma to its former function. So.....should plasma still Gets Hot in Heresy?

Still has gets hot, baseline Ap4 but goes to ap2 on a 4+ to wound; Gets Hot is resolved at the initial AP of the weapon.

[Brofist]

Idk anything about the 40k fluff, but plasma still has gets hot in the leaks with a few rare exceptions

[bushman101]

I know the leaks have Gets Hot, but should it according to lore

[LameBeard]

 

 

I started World Eaters - having a free chainaxe is great. +1 S for a huge chunk of your force and a distinctive weapon that reflects the lore. But chain axes are £17.50 for 5 from Forgeworld. Seems a bit of a tax to be a competitive/fluffy player - I might just stick with chain swords for most - they look nearly as good…

Traitor World Eaters without chainaxes, yikes! I'm 3d printing mine because that's what I got my resin one for (bits and bases). But there's plenty of variety on shapeways too that are cheaper, e.g. these by red warden, and pop goes the monkey has a bunch, e.g. these. If you want to stick to GW, there's some good axes from 40k bezerkers and AoS blood warriors that fit a late heresy world eaters force nicely.

 

(the leak for the traitors still had WE able to swap any chainsword for a chainaxe for free in addition to their other rules in heresy 2.0)

Thanks for the sources - I am not against 3rd party or 3D prints, I just have never found any I like as much as the forge world ones - so I’ll check these out. I have scavenged a couple of plastic, one or two forgeworld, so there will be a smattering. I also have some AoS so I will thinks about those too. And who said anything about Traitor? Mine might be the shunned of Istvaan or even some minor company that wasn’t there on either side …

[Arkhanist]

I kinda like chainswords on non-traitor World Eaters, helps make them look less lost to the nails, though it's less effective crunchwise. You only have to look as far as Cadmus Tyro's loyalists to see how cool it can look. (he used blackshield rules in his case, so doesn't get the free axes anyway)

e.g.

From the leaks, though obviously subject to change in the final:

"Any model with the Legiones Astartes (World Eaters) special rule equipped with a chainsword can instead take a chainaxe for free as long as this is appropriately represented on the model."

Will be interesting to see if we get more rules for loyalist versions of the traitors, and traitor versions of the loyalists as rumoured, e.g. traitor ultramarines!

Edited May 1, 2022 by Arkhanist

[LameBeard]

I kinda like chainswords on non-traitor World Eaters, helps make them look less lost to the nails, though it's less effective crunchwise. You only have to look as far as Cadmus Tyro's loyalists to see how cool it can look. (he used blackshield rules in his case, so doesn't get the free axes anyway)

 

From the leaks, though obviously subject to change in the final:

"Any model with the Legiones Astartes (World Eaters) special rule equipped with a chainsword can instead take a chainaxe for free as long as this is appropriately represented on the model."

 

Will be interesting to see if we get more rules for loyalist versions of the traitors, and traitor versions of the loyalists as rumoured, e.g. traitor ultramarines!

 

I definitely would want some chain swords anyway, I like the mix and match look. Probably inspired by the old index starts article:

 

http://redelf.narod.ru/pi/w40k/ia/we_m1.jpghttp://redelf.narod.ru/pi/w40k/ia/we_genocide.jpg

 

Cadmus Tyro is such an inspiration though - he's making me want to abandon the few World Eaters I have and start again, to copy that metallic blue on the shoulder. Will also be a chance to get in the new scale - we'll see what the box set brings.

 

I see Cadmus has the same issue I have with World Eaters though - the red symbol seems a poor contrast to the blue shoulder, no matter what blue you use.  Maybe Cadmus likes it like that, but it's been bugging me for years ... the only time I treated myself to a Forgeworld decal sheet and I don't seem to be able to get the most from it ...

Edited May 1, 2022 by LameBeard

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

I mean, fists still don't get the bonus for volkites. Or plasma. Or melta. Or missiles.

 

No legion gets a rule that has 100% uptime. They all have a niche they excel at, and they all have an area they don't get any bonus in.

.

If this is in response to me, then that’s what I’m saying: I’m not *asking* for a bonus to volkites. I’m saying a bonus to bolters is more than a niche, because bolters are pretty widespread. Just like the World Eater upgrade to chain swords is more than a niche. These are potentially very powerful upgrades and I wouldn’t mind if Legion rules (in general, so it’s fair across the board) were a bit *more* niche. Maybe the Salamanders/Death Guard flamer bonuses are good examples - not quite so widespread, nice encouragement to take a few, but you’re unlikely to want *every* model in your army have a flamer.

 

 

<please someone prove me wrong and post a picture of their all-flamer army>

Yea sorry I was having a few drinks and conflated your post with others take of how little the 1st edition rules benefited the fists (and other legions).

[Cadmus Tyro]

I kinda like chainswords on non-traitor World Eaters, helps make them look less lost to the nails, though it's less effective crunchwise. You only have to look as far as Cadmus Tyro's loyalists to see how cool it can look. (he used blackshield rules in his case, so doesn't get the free axes anyway)

From the leaks, though obviously subject to change in the final:

"Any model with the Legiones Astartes (World Eaters) special rule equipped with a chainsword can instead take a chainaxe for free as long as this is appropriately represented on the model."

Will be interesting to see if we get more rules for loyalist versions of the traitors, and traitor versions of the loyalists as rumoured, e.g. traitor ultramarines!

I definitely would want some chain swords anyway, I like the mix and match look. Probably inspired by the old index starts article:

http://redelf.narod.ru/pi/w40k/ia/we_m1.jpghttp://redelf.narod.ru/pi/w40k/ia/we_genocide.jpg

Cadmus Tyro is such an inspiration though - he's making me want to abandon the few World Eaters I have and start again, to copy that metallic blue on the shoulder. Will also be a chance to get in the new scale - we'll see what the box set brings.

I see Cadmus has the same issue I have with World Eaters though - the red symbol seems a poor contrast to the blue shoulder, no matter what blue you use. Maybe Cadmus likes it like that, but it's been bugging me for years ... the only time I treated myself to a Forgeworld decal sheet and I don't seem to be able to get the most from it ...

Thanks Lamebeard,

That’s part of the reason I chose a metallic blue over a flat deep blue, there’s definitely a risk of a lack of contrast with the red decals. The metallic blue seems to give a more natural reaction to light and how it falls on a curved surface, it also IMHO looks closer to the original betrayal artwork which is quite a washed out grey blue. I’m quite happy with the level of contrast, when the light hits the pad directly, it’s easier to see the contrast (check the side profiles of my minis in the blog):

.

Achieving that contrast is quite difficult in reality. The silver base coat of the pad has to be extremely light in the centre where the decal sits, almost white in its brilliance (I use Vallejo game air silver/plata, I also use this paint as a final extreme highlight on metallics due to its bright nature it helps to add an extra layer of definition in fine detail). Once you achieve a bright silver centre, the blue has to be heavily thinned and applied very sparingly over the centre of the pad and then in more depth over the edges. I actually stripped a batch of 40 pads early on in the project because I went too far with the blue and the decals, when added, lost contrast.

Anyway, if you want anymore info about the blue, let me know!

Cadmus

*edit - pic changed to one that shows contrast of decal on blue pad better, text changed as sounded confrontational*

Edited May 1, 2022 by Cadmus Tyro

[LameBeard]

@Cadmus thank you! That one looks great - I might try an experiment and then post more questions in your blog.

[Cadmus Tyro]

@Cadmus thank you! That one looks great - I might try an experiment and then post more questions in your blog.

No worries, it’s purely how the light hits the pad. Because the pad on the above model is angled towards the light source it gives you a better idea of what I see in reality when I look at the model in my hand. The MkV in the image before, the light is coming from the top and front of the model, so the pads look darker, and therefore the contrast looks to be diminished. Hope that makes sense?! Essentially all the pads look the same when under the correct light exposure!

 

It’s a pain photographing metallics!

 

Cadmus

[LameBeard]

I feel totally ashamed now rereading my original post - that it could be read as criticism on an issue which you’ve actually thought hard about and worked to overcome, and overcome successfully. And a solution which I think is probably way beyond my ability to copy. Consider me suitably humbled. I remain, sir, your servant and admirer.

[Cadmus Tyro]

I feel totally ashamed now rereading my original post - that it could be read as criticism on an issue which you’ve actually thought hard about and worked to overcome, and overcome successfully. And a solution which I think is probably way beyond my ability to copy. Consider me suitably humbled. I remain, sir, your servant and admirer.

Ah, no worries everyone’s entitled to an opinion, looking forward to seeing your World Eaters!

Cadmus

p.s. the World eater decal sheet comes with a lot of gold decals as well, which is a much easier way of creating contrast between the blue:

But this does take you away from the original “look” of the world eaters a little, and IMHO the gold is a little too yellow which can conflict with the more subdued brass trim (hence why I’ve limited the use of them).

Edited May 1, 2022 by Cadmus Tyro

[OttoVonAwesome]

 

 

I started World Eaters - having a free chainaxe is great. +1 S for a huge chunk of your force and a distinctive weapon that reflects the lore. But chain axes are £17.50 for 5 from Forgeworld. Seems a bit of a tax to be a competitive/fluffy player - I might just stick with chain swords for most - they look nearly as good…

Traitor World Eaters without chainaxes, yikes! I'm 3d printing mine because that's what I got my resin one for (bits and bases). But there's plenty of variety on shapeways too that are cheaper, e.g. these by red warden, and pop goes the monkey has a bunch, e.g. these. If you want to stick to GW, there's some good axes from 40k bezerkers and AoS blood warriors that fit a late heresy world eaters force nicely.

 

(the leak for the traitors still had WE able to swap any chainsword for a chainaxe for free in addition to their other rules in heresy 2.0)

Thanks for the sources - I am not against 3rd party or 3D prints, I just have never found any I like as much as the forge world ones - so I’ll check these out. I have scavenged a couple of plastic, one or two forgeworld, so there will be a smattering. I also have some AoS so I will thinks about those too. And who said anything about Traitor? Mine might be the shunned of Istvaan or even some minor company that wasn’t there on either side …

 

Red wardens stuff is very high quality.

[Marshal Mittens]

Shapeways is expensive and I don't love the strength of their prints, but Red Wardens stuff is great. I have his spikey MKVI and MKIV helms, some shoulders, they look great.

[Arkhanist]

True story - I bought a 3d resin printer specifically because Red Warden's Blood Angels beakies got kicked off Shapeways, but I could still buy the designs and print them myself. I still generally adhere to the old old rule of conversions, that 50% plus must be recognisable GW parts. Because that's what I'm mostly doing - converting. it still wouldn't fly in a painting competition or warhammer world, but that's not a major issue for me. I do print some complete models for fantasy board games, or models that GW don't do (mechanized nids etc)

 

But mostly I print the same stuff I would have bought off shapeways, but waaay cheaper, and easier than combing bits sites to find that specific head that's only on one sprue that you need 20 of! That, and bases. Oh, I've saved *so much* on resin bases...

[Hfran Morkai]

His Scout heads look great and will be getting some for my Recon Marines/Scouts.

 

What are people's plans for their Box Dreads if they don't come out with rules for them (or at least at the beginning)? Contemptors? I managed to grab a SW MkIV one with claw and Assault Cannon as I love the MkIV chassis so will want to use it (the Ironclad as well is gorgeous).

 

If Cortus are still around in the release I may use them for that.