State of the Union (Heresy)

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

So interesting thing. The melta blast gun stats for the kratos is different from the leaked rules. It went from large blast to heavy 4.

 

Looks like they really have a hate on for ap2 and large blast templates.

Probably a balancing mechanic. Perhaps Ap3 will be the realm of small blasts, while AP 4+ is large blast.

It's definitely a balancing mechanic, but what I'm getting at is that it's swung a bit far.

 

Cover is drastically lower, but the rest of the defensive stats got dialled. There's a big incentive for blobs that can access 5+ shroud with a reaction or sit on an objective with 4+ fnp and apothecary. A lot of more elite units got an extra wound.

 

All the counters to "mass infantry" got nerfed; it's desperately hard to shift a large amount of infantry with shooting now. Which means melee is the solution, as terminators can still hit at ap 2 and cause instant death. But its way harder to stop those 2 wound, reroll armour, option to evade, terminators from getting to you now and punching everyone with the STR 8 ap2 you weren't allowed to shoot with in large quantities.

 

I think the 315 point tank should be able to have a direct fire, STR 8 ap 2 large blast.

[jaxom]

It’s an anti-tank cannon. They lowered the versatility by making it heavy 4. Nuke a tank or a few elite infantry, but not a whole squad.

 

The push seems to be towards masses of infantry fighting over objectives while specialist units trim each other down.

[bushman101]

Heh. They are putting 'whippy sticks' in the starter as opposed to regular rulers.

[Baluc]

 

 

 

So interesting thing. The melta blast gun stats for the kratos is different from the leaked rules. It went from large blast to heavy 4.

 

Looks like they really have a hate on for ap2 and large blast templates.

Probably a balancing mechanic. Perhaps Ap3 will be the realm of small blasts, while AP 4+ is large blast.

It's definitely a balancing mechanic, but what I'm getting at is that it's swung a bit far.

 

Cover is drastically lower, but the rest of the defensive stats got dialled. There's a big incentive for blobs that can access 5+ shroud with a reaction or sit on an objective with 4+ fnp and apothecary. A lot of more elite units got an extra wound.

 

All the counters to "mass infantry" got nerfed; it's desperately hard to shift a large amount of infantry with shooting now. Which means melee is the solution, as terminators can still hit at ap 2 and cause instant death. But its way harder to stop those 2 wound, reroll armour, option to evade, terminators from getting to you now and punching everyone with the STR 8 ap2 you weren't allowed to shoot with in large quantities.

 

I think the 315 point tank should be able to have a direct fire, STR 8 ap 2 large blast.

The meta game is mobility and the ability and counter mobility. Moral tests, pinning and combat resolution are going to be strong. Which is basically the only way you can have a game be about the actual dudes, without just having carpet restrictions on tanks and templates.

[WrathOfTheLion]

It is interesting to see though, it does mean at first glance we can expect changes from the playtest rules, there are further refinements from there.

[Balthamal]

It is interesting to see though, it does mean at first glance we can expect changes from the playtest rules, there are further refinements from there.

 

I'm quite encouraged by it tbh - means there's a good chance things that were lacklustre getting a bit of a tune up as well as things that were overkill get dialled back. Guess we'll see in 4-8 weeks lol

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

 

 

So interesting thing. The melta blast gun stats for the kratos is different from the leaked rules. It went from large blast to heavy 4.

 

Looks like they really have a hate on for ap2 and large blast templates.

Probably a balancing mechanic. Perhaps Ap3 will be the realm of small blasts, while AP 4+ is large blast.

It's definitely a balancing mechanic, but what I'm getting at is that it's swung a bit far.

 

Cover is drastically lower, but the rest of the defensive stats got dialled. There's a big incentive for blobs that can access 5+ shroud with a reaction or sit on an objective with 4+ fnp and apothecary. A lot of more elite units got an extra wound.

 

All the counters to "mass infantry" got nerfed; it's desperately hard to shift a large amount of infantry with shooting now. Which means melee is the solution, as terminators can still hit at ap 2 and cause instant death. But its way harder to stop those 2 wound, reroll armour, option to evade, terminators from getting to you now and punching everyone with the STR 8 ap2 you weren't allowed to shoot with in large quantities.

 

I think the 315 point tank should be able to have a direct fire, STR 8 ap 2 large blast.

The meta game is mobility and the ability and counter mobility. Moral tests, pinning and combat resolution are going to be strong. Which is basically the only way you can have a game be about the actual dudes, without just having carpet restrictions on tanks and templates.

Maneuverability and movement have always been important in all the editions heresy has existed. Arguably it was the most important in 6th where nightfight shut down range at the start or end of the game, you could charge from infiltrate and scout if you went second, and ruins actually protected you from blasts.

 

Which is the next point; templates were affected by ruins for editions, until 7th just threw it all out. The reason why there were so many highpowered blast weapons was because ruins diffused their efficacy. A lot more elegant than screwing with all the blast weapon rules to try and make up for it and producing a completely new problem.

[Baluc]

 

 

 

 

 

So interesting thing. The melta blast gun stats for the kratos is different from the leaked rules. It went from large blast to heavy 4.

 

Looks like they really have a hate on for ap2 and large blast templates.

Probably a balancing mechanic. Perhaps Ap3 will be the realm of small blasts, while AP 4+ is large blast.

It's definitely a balancing mechanic, but what I'm getting at is that it's swung a bit far.

 

Cover is drastically lower, but the rest of the defensive stats got dialled. There's a big incentive for blobs that can access 5+ shroud with a reaction or sit on an objective with 4+ fnp and apothecary. A lot of more elite units got an extra wound.

 

All the counters to "mass infantry" got nerfed; it's desperately hard to shift a large amount of infantry with shooting now. Which means melee is the solution, as terminators can still hit at ap 2 and cause instant death. But its way harder to stop those 2 wound, reroll armour, option to evade, terminators from getting to you now and punching everyone with the STR 8 ap2 you weren't allowed to shoot with in large quantities.

 

I think the 315 point tank should be able to have a direct fire, STR 8 ap 2 large blast.

The meta game is mobility and the ability and counter mobility. Moral tests, pinning and combat resolution are going to be strong. Which is basically the only way you can have a game be about the actual dudes, without just having carpet restrictions on tanks and templates.

Maneuverability and movement have always been important in all the editions heresy has existed. Arguably it was the most important in 6th where nightfight shut down range at the start or end of the game, you could charge from infiltrate and scout if you went second, and ruins actually protected you from blasts.

 

Which is the next point; templates were affected by ruins for editions, until 7th just threw it all out. The reason why there were so many highpowered blast weapons was because ruins diffused their efficacy. A lot more elegant than screwing with all the blast weapon rules to try and make up for it and producing a completely new problem.

The problem that creates is any sort of open ground as being a death trap. Which is fine to a degree except that is effectively the whole point of power armour. So lowering the AP makes sense.

 

Either way having a lot of large bast low ap ends up as games off who has the toughest to remove scoring units, paired with the best templates. Really the only thing that stands in the way of that is Primarchs in a spartan with terminators.

 

I get your apprehension but I thing the chain of consequences makes for a better more accessible game; with templates being the loser.

 

I think this why we see chain bayonets make an entrance as in a game without large low ap templates dedicated assault units are very powerful and regular line units need to pose a bit more of a threat than their bare stats suggest. And heart of the Legion making them a bit stiffer in the objective game.

[SkimaskMohawk]

It’s an anti-tank cannon. They lowered the versatility by making it heavy 4. Nuke a tank or a few elite infantry, but not a whole squad.

 

The push seems to be towards masses of infantry fighting over objectives while specialist units trim each other down.

An anti tank cannon on a tank that costs 315 minimum to field. It's terrible; there are so many better options to get 4 melta shots. Like even the much nerfed javelin can get you 3 meltas and 6 twinlinked missiles/6 lascannons for 285.

 

Admittedly they might rejigger points more to fit with changed weapon profiles. But theyve had some very odd decisions to start with, like 150 for two wound, better save/faster terminators. So Im not holding my breath too much.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So interesting thing. The melta blast gun stats for the kratos is different from the leaked rules. It went from large blast to heavy 4.

 

Looks like they really have a hate on for ap2 and large blast templates.

Probably a balancing mechanic. Perhaps Ap3 will be the realm of small blasts, while AP 4+ is large blast.

It's definitely a balancing mechanic, but what I'm getting at is that it's swung a bit far.

 

Cover is drastically lower, but the rest of the defensive stats got dialled. There's a big incentive for blobs that can access 5+ shroud with a reaction or sit on an objective with 4+ fnp and apothecary. A lot of more elite units got an extra wound.

 

All the counters to "mass infantry" got nerfed; it's desperately hard to shift a large amount of infantry with shooting now. Which means melee is the solution, as terminators can still hit at ap 2 and cause instant death. But its way harder to stop those 2 wound, reroll armour, option to evade, terminators from getting to you now and punching everyone with the STR 8 ap2 you weren't allowed to shoot with in large quantities.

 

I think the 315 point tank should be able to have a direct fire, STR 8 ap 2 large blast.

The meta game is mobility and the ability and counter mobility. Moral tests, pinning and combat resolution are going to be strong. Which is basically the only way you can have a game be about the actual dudes, without just having carpet restrictions on tanks and templates.

Maneuverability and movement have always been important in all the editions heresy has existed. Arguably it was the most important in 6th where nightfight shut down range at the start or end of the game, you could charge from infiltrate and scout if you went second, and ruins actually protected you from blasts.

 

Which is the next point; templates were affected by ruins for editions, until 7th just threw it all out. The reason why there were so many highpowered blast weapons was because ruins diffused their efficacy. A lot more elegant than screwing with all the blast weapon rules to try and make up for it and producing a completely new problem.

The problem that creates is any sort of open ground as being a death trap. Which is fine to a degree except that is effectively the whole point of power armour. So lowering the AP makes sense.

 

Either way having a lot of large bast low ap ends up as games off who has the toughest to remove scoring units, paired with the best templates. Really the only thing that stands in the way of that is Primarchs in a spartan with terminators.

 

I get your apprehension but I thing the chain of consequences makes for a better more accessible game; with templates being the loser.

 

I think this why we see chain bayonets make an entrance as in a game without large low ap templates dedicated assault units are very powerful and regular line units need to pose a bit more of a threat than their bare stats suggest. And heart of the Legion making them a bit stiffer in the objective game.

Well, open ground being far more dangerous than the best cover somehow worked for years, so idk what to tell you. You could screen from direct fire to get a cover save, and barrage also only got to subtract from its scatter roll if you direct fired (so the target would get cover if you wanted to be accurate).

 

Instead, they decided to keep the terrible terrain rules and try and warp blasts around it. They still have the problem of "open ground being a death trap" as things like a unit of javelins can pick up squads, as can phosphex. But now, ruins are even worse due to a lower cover save and allowing the infamous cylinder of a blast to tag far more models than it would be able to get in the open.

 

We're going to be arguing about why phosphex is still ap 2 and a grav Levi can scoop every thing in one round, when all the artillery got moved to ap4 with rending and weapon called a "melta blast gun" got blast removed. All because they chose to not fix the terrain rules and went with a far more complex, far less tested solution.

 

I disagree on the analysis of what "good" blasts lead to. The answer is completely army dependant, as well as the terrain situation. The best blasts being aggressively priced ordnance barrage STR 10 ap2 makes me think that Spartan bomb wasn't the wisest choice though.

 

I think that game would be less accessible with more complex terrain rules. 9th is wildly popular and has complex terrain rules. Templates getting mangled only works until it doesn't. Someone is still going to lose their unit to a grav Levi or Typhon. They're going to feel bad. Telling them that they shouldnt feel too bad because other blasts let them take saves isn't going to cut it.

 

I don't understand the melee unit statement. How are chain bayonets going to stand up to the juiced up terminators that lost all of their ranged counters and also stayed the same price? A tac marine with chain bayo is 12 points; an old tac with extra CCW was 12 point. The chain bayo averages fewer wounds, so the regular line units actually pose less of a threat. Against units that got their durability doubled...

Edited May 7, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk

[BitsHammer]

It is interesting to see though, it does mean at first glance we can expect changes from the playtest rules, there are further refinements from there.

In the stream they mentioned statline changes across the game from HH 1.0 as well so it'll be interesting to see where everything lands in the end.

[Marshal Mittens]

So interesting thing. The melta blast gun stats for the kratos is different from the leaked rules. It went from large blast to heavy 4.

 

Looks like they really have a hate on for ap2 and large blast templates.

I mean, Vindicators are still cheap. And S10.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

So interesting thing. The melta blast gun stats for the kratos is different from the leaked rules. It went from large blast to heavy 4.

 

Looks like they really have a hate on for ap2 and large blast templates.

I mean, Vindicators are still cheap. And S10.

They're str12 ap3, rending 6+, small blast, with a rule that makes each hit cause d3.

 

They're still the same cost, got better against vehicles, got much worse against infantry and dreads, and were already nowhere near being a competitive heavy support slot. So I'm not sure "still cheap" really means much.

Edited May 7, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk

[Noserenda]

Im hoping as attendees get hope we will get some further tidbits and summaries of stuff 

[MichaelCarmine]

@SkimaskMohawk

Actually, if you direct fire a barrage weapon, you don't loose the barrage benefits, you just gain the benefit of substracting your BF and loose the minimum range.

that way, you can, for example, fire a medusa directly at a flare shielded spartan and still hit the sidearmour.

Sounds a bit dumb, but thats how it works =]

[Brother Kraskor]

To the Heresy veterans in here: what unit best fits taking Mk6 armour? I know GW are obviously pushing them as the posterboys of Heresy now but the fluff doesn't have it as widespread until right at the end/after. Something fast & elite I'd guess?

[ShadowCore67]

To the Heresy veterans in here: what unit best fits taking Mk6 armour? I know GW are obviously pushing them as the posterboys of Heresy now but the fluff doesn't have it as widespread until right at the end/after. Something fast & elite I'd guess?

My plan was personally to use them as firewing seekers. I do think they fit seekers very well. However unless you're a real stickler I'd say they are good for any unit except maybe breachers (although I don't know how you'd even convert these MKVI models to breachers).

[SkimaskMohawk]

@SkimaskMohawk

Actually, if you direct fire a barrage weapon, you don't loose the barrage benefits, you just gain the benefit of substracting your BF and loose the minimum range.

that way, you can, for example, fire a medusa directly at a flare shielded spartan and still hit the sidearmour.

Sounds a bit dumb, but thats how it works =]

I know how it works currently; I was talking about 6th edition.

 

I was trying to explain that for a solid 6 years, barrage and blasts were able to have a high stat distribution, precisely because there were other systems in place that created counter play and allowed players to reduce their impact. They never dominated the game during that time, despite the claim of open ground being a "death trap". Even the bogeyman of 5th, the infamous manticore in the leafblower configuration, was only really scary to vehicles (mainly because it was easier to kill vehicles off a pen, and could also do it off a glance) and Xenos, not marine infantry. Basilisks, Medusas, Vindicators, lrbt, fire prisms, etc...notably didn't dominate the meta in any way. The wyvern was pretty good when it came out, but that was without high strength or ap...and it was in 7th.

 

30k was designed for 5th and adapted for 6th. It was designed around the barrage limits and ruin interactions. Blast weapons never spiralled out of control with those rules, even with the Typhon existing since book 1; a ruin could limit your 10 man squad to 3 casualties a turn, despite its massive pie plate and ignoring cover.

 

We've played 7th a long time and tend to forget things, I get it. A Typhon these days scoops everything it sees; phosphex mortars ruined infantry for years before they changed it to a single large blast. It's easy to think of how dominating quality barrage spam has been. But that's not how the systems were designed, and that's not how it used to work.

[Slips]

If someone were to go back far enough through the B&C AoD Archives, you could probably pinpoint the moment in time Artillery changed and became more powerful as a result of the terrain rules changing.

[Astartes Consul]

Really hoping for some kind of write up / summary from people who were there about the play test tables and other stuff.

[OttoVonAwesome]

To the Heresy veterans in here: what unit best fits taking Mk6 armour? I know GW are obviously pushing them as the posterboys of Heresy now but the fluff doesn't have it as widespread until right at the end/after. Something fast & elite I'd guess?

It pre-dates the Heresy, lore from different places black books old white dwarfs etc support any legion using a company supplied with mark 6 at any point as supplemental, experimental or not yet fully sanctioned armour, it is however also said that many legions were using them in very limited capacity in recon and seeker squads to be precise as part of field testing the mark to be used specifically for those types of roles due to it's more silent qualities and better auto-senses. So in short you can make a whole army and not sweat it too much if your campaign isn't set in late stages of the war or if you perfer use it only for elite sneaky units no need to play Raven Guard or Alpha Legion to explain it.

[BitsHammer]

So there has been some talk elsewhere online about the MkVI shoulder pads being split things but looking at the old studded MkVI Tactical Marine versus the new HH ones and you can see why. Large, round studs that are closer to the edges of the shoulder pads where a single piece mold wouldn't be able to put them without possible sheering or putting a mold line right around the the shoulder pad.

 

Shoulder Pad seam:

I assume the wavy design is to ensure it lines up without slipping.

[Arkhanist]

To the Heresy veterans in here: what unit best fits taking Mk6 armour? I know GW are obviously pushing them as the posterboys of Heresy now but the fluff doesn't have it as widespread until right at the end/after. Something fast & elite I'd guess?

I did a long post on this recently basically laying out longstanding fluff reasons for Marks II-VI to be available to basically any force post Istvann III with the fluff/logistics reasons behind it. Sure, having nothing but Mark VI very early in the heresy would be a little odd for legions other than Raven Guard or Alpha Legion (both of which had it in quantity pre Istvann III), as it didn't go into mass production until just before the heresy started, but it's perfectly possible as there were pre-production versions of it in various legions, and certainly post Istvann V there'd be quite a bit of salvage.

 

Mark II-IV would be most common early heresy generally, mark V and VI more common mid heresy, and a lot of mark VI everywhere with some artificer prototype mark VII for loyalists at the siege itself. But each legion was absolutely huge, logistics was all over, both sides had forgeworld alliances, and in the end there's enough fluff justification for any ratio of those marks to be in your particular force that you personally prefer. III, IV and VI obviously have the advantage of being in plastic currently.

 

Mark VII pre the battles of Sol would be anachronistic, along with any Mark VIII or of course primaris Mark X given they were both much later, but other than that, it's a broad canvas.

 

That all said, if you want to personally keep Mark VI to seekers and recon units (where it was mostly being tested pre-heresy) or despoiler or assault squads* where its relative agility and speed would also have been an advantage, that's fine too!

 

* the new plastic mark VI tactical squad will need some bitbox salvaging (there are some bits from 40k tactical/assault squads you can use, and sanguinary guard jump packs without the wings) or 3rd party parts initially to make despoiler/assault squads, though a future mark VI assault squad in plastic is a tantalising possibility.

[Arkhanist]

So there has been some talk elsewhere online about the MkVI shoulder pads being split things but looking at the old studded MkVI Tactical Marine versus the new HH ones and you can see why. Large, round studs that are closer to the edges of the shoulder pads where a single piece mold wouldn't be able to put them without possible sheering or putting a mold line right around the the shoulder pad.

 

 

Shoulder Pad seam:

 

I assume the wavy design is to ensure it lines up without slipping.

 

Yup, doing a single piece studded shoulder pad has real issues with the studs closest to the edge because you can't really do undercuts in bulk injection moulds (they would block the part from coming out of the mould or shear off) e.g. the classic assault squad pad.

 

 

(If you think where the metal mold would have to stick into to block the plastic filling in between pad and studs above, you can see there's no direction for the the shoulder pad to then come out as a single piece - the metal would act like 'teeth' stuck between pad and studs. So you'd have to be able to dissassemble the mould to get them out every time, which doesn't work when you're churning them out at high speed!)

 

The 2 parter solves that by leaving an axis free to get the part out, and the wavy line joint should give it a tighter, more flush seam that will be easier to conceal. Of course, 3rd party resin cast or 3d printed studded pads (that can do undercuts much easier) have been available cheaply for ages if you don't want to have to deal with that particular bit of cleanup.

 

Same problem would also affect Mark V in plastic, which given the number of studs would mean either lots of melty studs onto the plates, or split into a lot more parts than usual.  GW are the masters when it comes to complex injection mould designs though, so I definitely wouldn't put it past them.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Arkhanist

[Cris R]

Dominion Zephon's MKVI shoulder pad with studs is the split wavy design, so we've already seen this configuration out in the wild for a few months now.

[BitsHammer]

Dominion Zephon's MKVI shoulder pad with studs is the split wavy design, so we've already seen this configuration out in the wild for a few months now.

 

 

So there has been some talk elsewhere online about the MkVI shoulder pads being split things but looking at the old studded MkVI Tactical Marine versus the new HH ones and you can see why. Large, round studs that are closer to the edges of the shoulder pads where a single piece mold wouldn't be able to put them without possible sheering or putting a mold line right around the the shoulder pad.

 

 

Shoulder Pad seam:

 

I assume the wavy design is to ensure it lines up without slipping.

 

Yup, doing a single piece studded shoulder pad has real issues with the studs closest to the edge because you can't really do undercuts in bulk injection moulds (they would block the part from coming out of the mould or shear off) e.g. the classic assault squad pad.

 

 

(If you think where the metal mold would have to stick into to block the plastic filling in between pad and studs above, you can see there's no direction for the the shoulder pad to then come out as a single piece - the metal would act like 'teeth' stuck between pad and studs. So you'd have to be able to dissassemble the mould to get them out every time, which doesn't work when you're churning them out at high speed!)

 

The 2 parter solves that by leaving an axis free to get the part out, and the wavy line joint should give it a tighter, more flush seam that will be easier to conceal. Of course, 3rd party resin cast or 3d printed studded pads (that can do undercuts much easier) have been available cheaply for ages if you don't want to have to deal with that particular bit of cleanup.

 

Same problem would also affect Mark V in plastic, which given the number of studs would mean either lots of melty studs onto the plates, or split into a lot more parts than usual.  GW are the masters when it comes to complex injection mould designs though, so I definitely wouldn't put it past them.

 

I suspect the trick might be separate armour panel bits like how they do the leg armour on Intercessors separate from the legs to allow them to get that perfect knee armour detail.

 

Dominion Zephon's MKVI shoulder pad with studs is the split wavy design, so we've already seen this configuration out in the wild for a few months now.

Yup. I know it's not new but I also have seen people unaware of that detail or didn't expect it to apply to the new models for some reason.