State of the Union (Heresy)

[WrathOfTheLion]

Nice, I guess they'll do it in numerical order?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Only differences I could see is the advance reaction going from Fear (2) and fearless on pass and Fear (1) and stubborn on fail to Fear (1) and fearless on pass and Fear (1) on fail.

 

Pretty big change, might see other legion unique reactions toned down accordingly. Gives me hope for the shooting ones too.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Only differences I could see is the advance reaction going from Fear (2) and fearless on pass and Fear (1) and stubborn on fail to Fear (1) and fearless on pass and Fear (1) on fail.

 

Pretty big change, might see other legion unique reactions toned down accordingly. Gives me hope for the shooting ones too.

It's only speculation, but from Phase 1 -> Phase 3 we saw the traitors have really strong rules, and the loyalists in 3 have more subdued ones, so my thought is that maybe they were going from a point of strong and toning it down as time progressed, and that's how they designed the rules.

[jaxom]

I was looking at Forge World and if the price rumors (which seem pretty reliable) are true than I'm very curious if some prices will come down. A primarch being half the cost of 40 marines, 10 terminators, two characters, two vehicles, and all the rules.

 

Edit: also, a squad of 5 being 1/3 the cost of 40 marines, 10 terminators, two characters, two vehicles, and all the rules.

Edited May 10, 2022 by jaxom

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

Only differences I could see is the advance reaction going from Fear (2) and fearless on pass and Fear (1) and stubborn on fail to Fear (1) and fearless on pass and Fear (1) on fail.

 

Pretty big change, might see other legion unique reactions toned down accordingly. Gives me hope for the shooting ones too.

It's only speculation, but from Phase 1 -> Phase 3 we saw the traitors have really strong rules, and the loyalists in 3 have more subdued ones, so my thought is that maybe they were going from a point of strong and toning it down as time progressed, and that's how they designed the rules.

I'm not sure I agree that the loyalists have weaker rules; it's all rather subjective with how much the warlord traits, reaction, rites, units, characters and legion rules interact with the core rules.

 

I do think there's some outstandingly strong traitor rules that are bound to be adjusted, but I don't think that indicates a trend of vast toning down of power between playtest versions.

[Brother Kraskor]

Nice, I guess they'll do it in numerical order?

 

I hope so. 

[Ripper.McGuirl]

Nice, I guess they'll do it in numerical order?

Probably, that way they can save the best for last.

[WrathOfTheLion]

 

 

Only differences I could see is the advance reaction going from Fear (2) and fearless on pass and Fear (1) and stubborn on fail to Fear (1) and fearless on pass and Fear (1) on fail.

 

Pretty big change, might see other legion unique reactions toned down accordingly. Gives me hope for the shooting ones too.

It's only speculation, but from Phase 1 -> Phase 3 we saw the traitors have really strong rules, and the loyalists in 3 have more subdued ones, so my thought is that maybe they were going from a point of strong and toning it down as time progressed, and that's how they designed the rules.

I'm not sure I agree that the loyalists have weaker rules; it's all rather subjective with how much the warlord traits, reaction, rites, units, characters and legion rules interact with the core rules.

 

I do think there's some outstandingly strong traitor rules that are bound to be adjusted, but I don't think that indicates a trend of vast toning down of power between playtest versions.

 

That was just my thought on what it looked like, hence why I said speculation. However, we have invalid data, so there won't be anything to support it. Since we only have traitor playtest 1, and loyalist playtest 3, we cannot really make much of a valid comparison.

 

Playtest 3 to release rules should give us a much better idea of how that went when the release rules become available.

[The Scorpion]

 

 

 

WarCom Article.

First Legion (pun) article is now out. Guess we'll be seeing these daily until late May.

 

[Slips]

What are you even complaining about just yet? These aren't even the full rules for the Dark Angels.

[Marshal Mittens]

I like how they wrote it from the prospective of the legion. Looks like good rules legion, not generic rules before a future codex.

[jaxom]

Question for those who followed the leaks pedantically, did the DA still have Masters of the Blade along with the Wing bonus?

[WrathOfTheLion]

I think Mastery of the Blade is part of the Deathwing bonus instead of part of the Legion trait, but I'd need to go back and read it.

[Gorgoff]

What is their legion rule anyway?

[WrathOfTheLion]

What is their legion rule anyway?

I think you now get to assign one of the Wings of the Hexagrammaton to each unit instead.

 

I may be misremembering though, or it may have changed, given this paragraph:

This flexibility plays into their rules in the new edition of Warhammer: The Horus Heresy, with Dark Angels commanders able to give their units a sub-type from one of the six Hexagrammaton Wings – the Stormwing, the Deathwing, the Ravenwing, the Dreadwing, the Ironwing, and the Firewing.

Edit: Nope hasn't changed from the playtest, just me not being able to read. For some reason I thought it meant characters for some reason. Too busy at work I guess to read it right.

Edited May 10, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[SkimaskMohawk]

Every unit gets a hexagrammaticon sub type. There's some slight shenans with mixing different subtype ICs and units and choosing which of the two to use at the start of your turn. You can't benefit while embarked.

 

The bonuses are:

 

Stormwing - +1 to hit when shooting with bolter, combi bolter or bolt pistol. Applies to reactions.

 

Deathwing - +1 to hit in melee with swords. Vehicles get +1 STR when ramming to a maximum of 10.

 

Dreadwing - -1 strength to all flame, plasma, volkite and phosphex weapons that shoot them. Poison are -1 to wound to a cap 6.

 

Ironwing - rerolls 1s to hit when targetting vehicles. Vehicles snap shot at bs2.

 

Firewing - +1 to wound when attacking a unit with an attached IC.

 

Ravenwing - non vehicles get +1 to run, cavalry additionally get to rerolls shrouded tests. Vehicles get +2 to move when going cruising speed.

 

They don't cost points like the old ones.

 

The lion can change his bonus every turn, which is pretty brutal considering he can guarantee hitting on 2s in melee. Or guarantee hitting on 2s with his gun. Or guarantee 2s to wound against units with an IC. Or tank up against quality firepower.

 

Obviously this can make for some very tailored unit that excel at particular tasks. Its also extra hard to evaluate strength because it's so context dependant, and also doesn't lock unoptimal units to the same bonus (unlike the other legions).

Edited May 10, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk

[jaxom]

Thank you, SkimaskMohawk!

[bushman101]

Nice, I guess they'll do it in numerical order?

Sweet. Let's see those II legion spoilers :p

[Slips]

 

Nice, I guess they'll do it in numerical order?

Sweet. Let's see those II legion spoilers :p

“404 Records Expunged” there you go

[Lautrec the Embraced]

 

 

Nice, I guess they'll do it in numerical order?

Sweet. Let's see those II legion spoilers

“404 Records Expunged” there you go

 

No, we need someting more thoughtful and deep:

 

Maybe the real II Legion was the friends we made along the way

[TheTrans]

*sigh* so the super boring Version 3 leaks we spotted have stayed with us to to the final. 

Calling it now guys, and always your mileage may vary, but the new legion rules are hugely uninspired, the lack of limitations, or expectations built into lists fundamentally robs the legions of some of their flavor and I feel like they've just copy and pasted :cuss from 9th in regard to legion/chapter traits/tactics.

Sure we've spotted some shimmying on the Kratos cannon, to bring it into line with most other High AP weapons in 2.0... But outside of slight weapon profile changes and equipment selection anyone expecting big changes between v3 and release is going to be somewhat disappointing and found out to be shockingly naive. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Ehhhh disagree on the inspiration. But I think we've had that argument already.

[ShadowCore67]

Also disagree on the "hugely uninspired", and while legion limitations are gone, a good chunk of them were basically non-existent anyway. Rite of War restrictions are still here and those are the restrictions you really feel.

[TheTrans]

Ehhhh disagree on the inspiration. But I think we've had that argument already.

 

Also disagree on the "hugely uninspired", and while legion limitations are gone, a good chunk of them were basically non-existent anyway. Rite of War restrictions are still here and those are the restrictions you really feel.

Brothers, please explain to me how +1 to x, y or z is particularly creative? By comparison to the variety (however useful, forgotten or not) of flavoursome stuff you got rolled into your Legiones Astartes trait before hand. 

 

From a purely competitive stand point, sure they are much more useful than many of the older rules, doesn't mean they are particularly inspiring, exciting or interesting. 

[jaxom]

 

 

 

 

I for one don't like the gutted legion rules. Some of them have less crunch than their 9th ed chapter tactics...

 

I want my negatives to my special rule positives.

 

(I think for future as well, we can all imagine an asterisk after every comment about the leaked rules saying "based on what we've seen". )

 

I for one don't think we'll see huuuuge changes in the rules in all honesty. Like how bent and no briainer augury scanners are, making it to the 3rd iteration is pretty worrisome.

Thats a weird take. All the legions lost their downsides and a couple lost other aspects, so the sheer amount of legion rules is lower. But, they interact far more with various core mechanics, especially when combined with the special units.

 

There's absolutely more crunch to how a legions rules can be leveraged in the game now.

To me its just made the legions significantly more homogenized which I think is a negative (YMMV) now they are just different colour marines with a +1 to hit, +1 to wound or something of a very similar ilk.

 

Compared to say Night Lords who had a talent for murder, got a cover save due to being night time weirdos, but scuttled away further when they failed morale checks and went down when HQs copped it.

 

But now they'll just have +1 to wound when outnumberering a foe or something and thats it. Compared to say +1 to hit with IF bolt (....and auto or +1 to wound Blood Angels when charging etc...

 

To me without the 'negatives'..but I'd probably be more inclined to call them flavouring than massive negatives.... its sucked out a lot of soul and definitely nods toward the 9th ed 'chapter tactics' generally just adding some stat modifier of some kind.

panascope covers it well; most legions didn't have negatives. The Night Lords required their Warlord to die, which is already something you want to prevent from happening. As a night Lords player, it very rarely applied. Running away further was a bonus in a lot of cases.

 

And a lot of the newer legion rules, units, rites, and USRs come together to offer much more crunch than before. Let's use the Night Lords again:

• ATFM procs off outnumbering, pinning, or any negative stat modifiers. It also works with shooting attacks and against vehicles,
• Night fight causes -1 ld and -1 bs, as well as denying long range. It procs ATFM.
• Fear is an aura of -(X) ld. It also procs ATFM.
• Arriving from deepstrike or outflank within 6" of the enemy causes a pinning test. During the night, this would now be at -2 ld, averaging a fail against base ld 8 units. Pinning prevents reactions.
• Bloody murder is a new special rule most Night Lords special units get (and Curze gives to everyone). When charging a unit that was pinned or falling back, you get +1 to your charge and +1 attacks.
• Night Raptors and Contekar can naturally deepstrike. Terror Marines can outflank, or buy a pod for deepstrike. Atrementar will probably keep their deepstrike. Sevatar grants it to normal terminators. All of your elite units can benefit from these interactions.

If you don't want to deepstrike:

• Terror marines can infiltrate and take rotor cannons that have shell shock and pinning. Get close during the night and force pining tests at -3.
• Movement value influences charge range. Raptors get +3 to charge when targeting pinned units due to bloody murder, and ignore difficult.

That's a lot more mechanically than being able to cheese drop pod assault and leviathans to get 2+ cover, and then filling up on criminally undercosted raptors to drown any unit in chainglaive attacks that hit and wounded on 2s. And is something you can basically recreate with the bloody murder bonus.

 

I'll also note that the night fight range cap helps recreate the protection from long range. As does the fact that both raptors and terror marines are skirmishers, benefiting from a 3" coherency and a +1 to cover saves.

 

Only the talent for murder is explicitly written as their legion bonus, but there's a lot of rules bonuses that are implicit in their application.