State of the Union (Heresy)

[bushman101]

Mostly happy with Blood Angel's

Reaction looks good. Sang gives good bonuses.

Did Dawnbreakers get cheaper?

 

Day of Revelation is still weird. Announcing a place and a turn seems like tiping my hand to my opponent

Edited May 28, 2022 by bushman101

[WrathOfTheLion]

 

 

All I want now is shooting reactions to be capped at 1 per turn and I probably won't have to cut the system wholesale lol.

You should be able to house rule them down to 1 per turn pretty easily.

 

For me, seeing Horus toned down is a good thing. It puts a nail in the previous statements reported here that the design team ignored any statements about Horus, they clearly found it necessary to address that rule.

 

As we can observe quite definitively that address it they did.

We'll see. It might be easier to just axe it all except for what's given by wargear.

 

Yeah, could do that. I don't think it'll really be that hard to play with/without them, and folks can do whatever they want with it. I'll probably play with them, honestly a bit surprised that they've generally restrained themselves thus far with them.

 

After more recent 40k publications, can clearly see that design team likely wouldn't have been able to achieve that.

[infyrana]

All I want now is shooting reactions to be capped at 1 per turn and I probably won't have to cut the system wholesale lol.

 

@infyrana the units/characters that got cut were ones without a dedicated model/kit to build them. But, they're going to be included in an equally legal pdf. It's not like legends where it's left in limbo and discouraged, the cut units are explicitly just as valid as the liber ones.

 

That.. is the correct answer ;)  Thank you for this tidbit of great news!  It will hopefully make some more of my plans come to life (looking at you Nemesis Destroyers).

 

I'm also pleased to see Scythes replacing power swords and not the more expensive fists.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I'm hoping that Sons of Horus/Imperial Fist decal sheet is included in a lot of kits, would be quite nice for either of legions if decals are easily available.

I have a friend doing Imperial Fists, so we'll probably split each sheet we get if so.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Something I meant to mention for raptors is that they too have the option for chainblades, also for the same price as glaives.

 

Not sure why they're the same price, as ATfM evens out the to-wound difference between STR 5 and 6, and you get an extra attack on top of that.

[WrathOfTheLion]

 

All I want now is shooting reactions to be capped at 1 per turn and I probably won't have to cut the system wholesale lol.

 

@infyrana the units/characters that got cut were ones without a dedicated model/kit to build them. But, they're going to be included in an equally legal pdf. It's not like legends where it's left in limbo and discouraged, the cut units are explicitly just as valid as the liber ones.

 

That.. is the correct answer   Thank you for this tidbit of great news!  It will hopefully make some more of my plans come to life (looking at you Nemesis Destroyers).

 

I'm also pleased to see Scythes replacing power swords and not the more expensive fists.

 

I'm quite hoping that's the case all around. I have some units like box dreadnoughts I'd love to have a nice home for, and I've always considered picking up the plastic baneblade and converting it into a Word Bearers tank, would look really cool. I'll wait for any PDF publication before doing something like that, though.

[Hfran Morkai]

As someone who has a Thunderhawk Transporter (proxy), Caestus and two Box Dreads including a FW Ironclad I concur!

 

I also hope they put a little work into the entries rather than just port, for example the Thunderhawk Transporter could do with being able to carry two Sabres.

[jaxom]

@infyrana the units/characters that got cut were ones without a dedicated model/kit to build them.

 

Ooooh, now I'm excited for the future Thursday were we get to see Corswain. I've been leaning away from Dark Angels because I don't think the way they come together fits the play style I want, but a good centerpiece model could change that.

[ShadowCore67]

 

 

@infyrana the units/characters that got cut were ones without a dedicated model/kit to build them.

Ooooh, now I'm excited for the future Thursday were we get to see Corswain. I've been leaning away from Dark Angels because I don't think the way they come together fits the play style I want, but a good centerpiece model could change that.

Dark Angels can be almost any play style that's what's so cool about them :)

[DesuVult]

For those who do not wish to dig through the document.  Legion medusas and basilisks are confirmed to still exist.

https://i.imgur.com/qdCoLg0.png

 

For resident IW players, your dreadnoughts can now take Iron Circle hammers.  They are S9 AP2 Brutal (2) Haywire.  In the Guerrilla Miniature Games leaked rules contemptor fists are S7 AP2.  We have a slight advantage.

[Omega-soul]

Well - printed version of rules is on the web and it EXCATLY as I expected. Almost zero changes given. Well yes, they added Deep strike to Sanguinius. Yay - big win.

In other words - we're doomed brothers ( for the time being).

Take as many Dawnbreaker cohorts as you can only field, they are the only hope for decent blood angels legion portrayal (in game terms).

The only comfort you can get is that Blood angels are not the only who got short stick. 

 

 

 

The level of of those who wrote rules for Sanguinius is just astounding.

First being statline with 6 strengh, 6 initiative 6 attacks - as oppose to Lion and Russ having 7-7-7

Second special rules - it takes a special kind of to not give Sanguinius DEEP STRIKE RULE

I will not be bothered to compare his special rules to Lion and Russ - because his special rules suck big time hard.

I will not be bothered to mention his lost special rules and opportunities to fix stupid ones (one shot pistol AGAIN?)

 

So now essentially - he is not even remotely the killiest one, and secondly - gives even less bonuses to his army.

And now - when you can't have hit&run via RoW - all those "on charge" bonuses becomes a bandaid made of grass.

 

One may say "But hey he is still ok at killing random stuff" - but the point is - it's Sanguinius, he can't be mediocre dude - even Corax dish can dish out 12 attacks with s6 ap2 shred! 

 

I am sorry for this nerd rage - but it's unbearable - especially how much controversy his profile caused in the first edition.

 

 

Sanguinius gear and rules

 

 

 

 

 

Good thing this is still clearly playtest and not the final product then.

 

Edited May 28, 2022 by Omega-soul

[Brother Kraskor]

Some nice changes to Emperor's Children. Warlord trait giving whole army +1 to hit against all traitors in melee my favourite.

 

But confirmed no jump packs for Palatine Blades - curses! I shall have to convert them into a command squad.

[Marshal Loss]

Some nice changes to Emperor's Children. Warlord trait giving whole army +1 to hit against all traitors in melee my favourite.

The warlord & accompanying unit, not the whole army.

[Varyn]

 

All I want now is shooting reactions to be capped at 1 per turn and I probably won't have to cut the system wholesale lol.

 

@infyrana the units/characters that got cut were ones without a dedicated model/kit to build them. But, they're going to be included in an equally legal pdf. It's not like legends where it's left in limbo and discouraged, the cut units are explicitly just as valid as the liber ones.

 

That.. is the correct answer   Thank you for this tidbit of great news!  It will hopefully make some more of my plans come to life (looking at you Nemesis Destroyers).

 

I'm also pleased to see Scythes replacing power swords and not the more expensive fists.

 

Unfortunately for DG players scythes are now only rending 6+, which means deathshroud will really struggle against other terminator units 

[Cyrox]

Have there been any clear leaks of the tactical squad list at the back of the big box instructions? (or from the liber books)

 

I could do with knowing whats legal and whats not from a tactical squad perspective

 

Apologies if i've missed it

[Excessus]

Hmmm...disappointed for Lernaean Termies loosing Ws5, hopefully the defensive buffs will balance it out.

[Dagoth Ur]

Hmmm...disappointed for Lernaean Termies loosing Ws5, hopefully the defensive buffs will balance it out.

Yeah but they gain +1 to hit in ranged and melee against a legion of your choice. Could be worse - I definitely know what I'll be doing with my 10 Cataphracti.

[tinpact]

Question: what does the Brutal rule do? It's on Ferrus Manus and a few other datasheets, but I haven't seen the actual description for it.

 

Lorgar Transfigured with Ruinstorm Daemons looks like a fun thing to play with - almost enough to make me consider doing Word Bearers. Horus Ascended, too. Still wondering if they'll end up going through with those rumors about Daemon Primarch rules at some point.

 

Crimson Paladins got a better statline, can go up to 10, no longer have to pay quite as much for power fists, and didn't go up in points from Malevolence (unless equipment costs changed, I think they actually went down). They still have the weird outnumbering rules for their FnP (great, you get your improved FnP against...Tech-Thralls? Although they already have a 4+ invuln, so maybe it's best they don't overdo it) Day of Sorrows doesn't screw you as soon as your units go to half strength anymore, so it's at least playable now.

 

Assault cannons are assault now (imagine that!) and no longer have Malfunction at the cost of having Gets Hot, but only during reactions.

 

 

Well - printed version of rules is on the web and it EXCATLY as I expected. Almost zero changes given. Well yes, they added Deep strike to Sanguinius. Yay - big win.

In other words - we're doomed brothers ( for the time being).

Take as many Dawnbreaker cohorts as you can only field, they are the only hope for decent blood angels legion portrayal (in game terms).

The only comfort you can get is that Blood angels are not the only who got short stick.

 

I don't think Sanguinius is quite that bad, even if he isn't an especially good Primarch killer. A lot of his stats are in his wargear - he gets Rage, Rampage, and Shred on the Blade Encarmine. The Spear of Telesto lost ID but gained permanent S10, and I think the Moonsilver blade is the same. Between Lion and Russ, Russ is probably more comparable. The +1S buff he gives is generally as good as -1 on the wound chart, and I think he's about as durable on the charge (-1 to hit vs rerollable invulns), and cheaper to boot.

 

Sanguinius's warlord trait gives every jump pack/deep strike unit (drop pods count for that, right?) +1WS on the charge - normal assault marines go from hitting on 4+ to 3+, and Dawnbreakers and Paladins go to 2+ vs WS4 - and keep in mind that this is all on top of the legion trait.

[Excessus]

 

Hmmm...disappointed for Lernaean Termies loosing Ws5, hopefully the defensive buffs will balance it out.

Yeah but they gain +1 to hit in ranged and melee against a legion of your choice. Could be worse - I definitely know what I'll be doing with my 10 Cataphracti.

 

Yeah, but a lot of other special units get Ws5, so they'll be hitting the Lerneans on 3+ instead of 4+, and regular dudes hits on 4+ instead of 5+. The defensive aspect of it is gone, replaced with just an offensive rule.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well - printed version of rules is on the web and it EXCATLY as I expected. Almost zero changes given. Well yes, they added Deep strike to Sanguinius. Yay - big win.

In other words - we're doomed brothers ( for the time being).

Take as many Dawnbreaker cohorts as you can only field, they are the only hope for decent blood angels legion portrayal (in game terms).

The only comfort you can get is that Blood angels are not the only who got short stick.

 

Paladins and day of sorrows are both useable and quite good now. Tears are still good. Day of revelation is very strong. The blood angel charge bonuses are very strong; a chaplain with perdition and 10 ASM wipe any power armour unit off the board. Even sang got better in some ways compared to 1st; WS 8 makes him be hit on 6s against most things and 5s against the rest, the spear can actually kill vehicles reliably now and not just hope for the charge, and he's faster in movement and charging.

 

The things sang got worse in is that the spear is no longer the flat out better weapon choice, dawnbreakers don't get to be troops/score and sang is worse against primarchs. Arguably, only the dawnbreaker thing really matters.

 

He's still strong, and fast and buffs his army in a synergistic way. If it wasn't for terminators getting pseudo stubborn, he'd still be able to one round 10 cataphractii solo, taking less damage than he previously did.

 

BA are poised to be good. If your friends start spamming auguries, you can pivot to day of sorrows for a completely different list.

 

@tinpact brutal is every hit turns into that many wounds against toughness value. Default is d3, but perdition weapons have brutal 2 and Kontos lance for the golden keshig have 3. Kontos is only allowed 1 attack per model, but ferrus of course comes in with 7 on the charge.

Edited May 28, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk

[SkimaskMohawk]

Double post, but my earlier one about sang and terminators got me thinking; with how I've been hyped for the night lords and their leadership bomb, did I just fail to consider terminators shutting it down? Especially embarrassing considering that I've been talking them up left and right.

 

But no, inexorable explicitly still allows fear to modify your morale and pinning tests, so curze can still lay down a blanket -3 and force any pinning or assault phase stuff to fail on average.

 

That got me thinking further though. If you are laying down these huge leadership debuffs, and most units will be suffering -4 to leadership, what about just causing normal morale tests through 25% casualties? You might be thinking that pinning is better for suppressing units, and it is; causing them to fall back from morale is only step 1. Step 2 is charging them while they're falling back (preferably in the curze aura); if you make the charge and they fail the regroup, the unit just dies.

 

So a working strategy is turn 1, go for pinning on infantry units/destroy transports near the front/try not to get gunned by tanks with your advance stuff. Turn 2, have your drop stuff come in (dread/normal pod to anchor the deepstrike, contekar/atrementar/raptors for the secondaries), re-pin via deepstrike, try and pick off stuff for morale tests with no reactions because they're pinned, charge them when they're fleeing (with a handy +1) and watch the units auto-explode. Guess with volume of fire, contekar can really be good at forcing the morale test and then clean them up with the charge, though, on average, even with flamers they still can't quite kill enough enemy terminators to panic the unit on their own.

 

The thing with this is that you have good insulation for bad lack. Going second still lets you have infiltrators set up advantageously (with +1 cover from skirmishers), have night fight limiting their range and output, and have curze protected at home. Having your reserves fail to come in on turn 2 should still give you plenty of time to work on their units due to the pinning set up still going strong.

 

Guess the caveat is having enough anti-tank, but that's kind of the earliest lesson to learn with night lords.

Edited May 28, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk

[bushman101]

Day of revelation is very strong.

Could you expand on this. To me, Day of Rev is looking pretty bad.

You announce when and where your DS ing stuff will drop, so your opponent can prepare a response. All so....I don't have to roll for Reserves? The cover save and pinning is now gone. And it still uses the new DS rules, so if I roll a 1, the opponent places my stuff.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

Day of revelation is very strong.

Could you expand on this. To me, Day of Rev is looking pretty bad.

You announce when and where your DS ing stuff will drop, so your opponent can prepare a response. All so....I don't have to roll for Reserves? The cover save and pinning is now gone. And it still uses the new DS rules, so if I roll a 1, the opponent places my stuff.

You announce where and when your stuff is coming. You can't fail a reserve roll and you don't scatter, so you have almost complete control for placement.

 

All deepstriking units naturally force pinning in a 6" area, so that's why it's been removed from the shooting.

 

It uses the new deep strike rules, so your initial model gets placed within 6" of the DoR marker, and then the unit gets to be filled out from there, but just in unit coherency and not the concentric rings. Then, on a 2+, you can place your other units within 12" of the first (not wholly within, just partially, so you can radiate out a fair bit, as it's still just unit coherency). And finally, because of the new deepstrike rules, you can charge with your brick of elite deepstriking units.

 

You lose the cover save because you're just going to be eating units in melee. And because they've axed most forms of cover save stacking and cover in general.

 

The only random element in the day of revelation strategy is that 1/6 for secondary units. Other than that, you have complete control. And as I said initially, if they've teched against it with tons of auguries, then you can field a very good list in the form of day of sorrows.

Edited May 28, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk

[BitsHammer]

Double post, but my earlier one about sang and terminators got me thinking; with how I've been hyped for the night lords and their leadership bomb, did I just fail to consider terminators shutting it down? Especially embarrassing considering that I've been talking them up left and right.

 

But no, inexorable explicitly still allows fear to modify your morale and pinning tests, so curze can still lay down a blanket -3 and force any pinning or assault phase stuff to fail on average.

 

That got me thinking further though. If you are laying down these huge leadership debuffs, and most units will be suffering -4 to leadership, what about just causing normal morale tests through 25% casualties? You might be thinking that pinning is better for suppressing units, and it is; causing them to fall back from morale is only step 1. Step 2 is charging them while they're falling back (preferably in the curze aura); if you make the charge and they fail the regroup, the unit just dies.

 

So a working strategy is turn 1, go for pinning on infantry units/destroy transports near the front/try not to get gunned by tanks with your advance stuff. Turn 2, have your drop stuff come in (dread/normal pod to anchor the deepstrike, contekar/atrementar/raptors for the secondaries), re-pin via deepstrike, try and pick off stuff for morale tests with no reactions because they're pinned, charge them when they're fleeing (with a handy +1) and watch the units auto-explode. Guess with volume of fire, contekar can really be good at forcing the morale test and then clean them up with the charge, though, on average, even with flamers they still can't quite kill enough enemy terminators to panic the unit on their own.

 

The thing with this is that you have good insulation for bad lack. Going second still lets you have infiltrators set up advantageously (with +1 cover from skirmishers), have night fight limiting their range and output, and have curze protected at home. Having your reserves fail to come in on turn 2 should still give you plenty of time to work on their units due to the pinning set up still going strong.

 

Guess the caveat is having enough anti-tank, but that's kind of the earliest lesson to learn with night lords.

With Curze you can get a free bonus for charging pinned units that adds an additional bonus attack to models that complete the charge. Pair it with the morale debuff you can just flat out wwipe units that try and retreat. Units that aren't effected by being wiped on the retreat don't really about pinning or morale anyways.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well the strategy was to avoid even having to fight in combat and just charge them while they were fleeing from the shooting phase, but you can certainly fight it out on units that stayed put and try and sweep them. Bloody murder is definitely handy for either scenario, but it's still a bit risky to take some combats against really elite units like terminators. Like even with a chaplain leading 5 raptors, you'll still lose a guy to 5 power fist terminators before they run.

 

Why take the risk lol.