Snaggas and the future of 40k

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Ok, so a while ago when I first came back to the forums I asked if 40k was getting the AoS treatment but in less severe or drastic way.

A lot of people said no and gave their reasoning, I was not convinced.

The new orks, the beast snaggas to me look very much like the orrucks of AoS from the first model shown, and from the ork art. That one boss seems very reminiscent of the orruck megaboss to me.

 

 

Range refreshes, and drastic lore changes, it stills seems to me 40k is getting a more gradual AoS treatment to avoid the pitfalls they made with AoS.

[Brother Tyler]

Upon its inception, Warhammer 40,000 was just Warhammer Fantasy Battles in space. It's inevitable that there will be some degree of overlap between the two, especially for those factions that have the same basic theme within the two settings. The Chaos Daemons are the most obvious example of this, with Orks (or Orcs in WHFB/AoS) being the next closest. Ultimately, while the two games have seen more similarities arise in recent years, the influence is actually the opposite of what you're describing - AoS is much closer to WH40K than WHFB was. GW already demonstrated that they may have learned some kind of lesson (if that's what you want to call it) in terms of major storyline progression - instead of something drastic like the End Times changing WHFB to AoS, WH40K had the return of Roboute Guilliman and the Cicatrix Maledictum, something much less drastic.

Regardless, range refreshes are inevitable, especially if the WH40K game is going to continue. Adding new (or "new") factions, removing/refreshing old factions, and expanding existing factions are ways that game developers keep things fresh and ensure steady revenue (without revenue, they can't produce stuff and the game dies). There have been retcons and expansions  to the lore in every edition since the 1st edition. WH40K actually saw a major refresh in terms of the Primaris range replacing legacy Adeptus Astartes. Each faction sees a re-design at some point. The Aeldari that we know now started as piratical/mercenary Space Elves in early 1st edition and transitioned to the craftworlders later on. The Tyranids were vastly different in 1st edition and included subjugated races such as the Zoats. The Adepta Sororitas saw a significant refresh recently (with more expansions/additions coming). Feral/savage Orks have existed in the lore for years (at least as early as 2nd edition), so it's not surprising that we're now seeing them better represented in models.

This is nothing to be worried over.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Upon its inception, Warhammer 40,000 was just Warhammer Fantasy Battles in space. It's inevitable that there will be some degree of overlap between the two, especially for those factions that have the same basic theme within the two settings. The Chaos Daemons are the most obvious example of this, with Orks (or Orcs in WHFB/AoS) being the next closest. Ultimately, while the two games have seen more similarities arise in recent years, the influence is actually the opposite of what you're describing - AoS is much closer to WH40K than WHFB was. GW already demonstrated that they may have learned some kind of lesson (if that's what you want to call it) in terms of major storyline progression - instead of something drastic like the End Times changing WHFB to AoS, WH40K had the return of Roboute Guilliman and the Cicatrix Maledictum, something much less drastic.

 

Regardless, range refreshes are inevitable, especially if the WH40K game is going to continue. Adding new (or "new") factions, removing/refreshing old factions, and expanding existing factions are ways that game developers keep things fresh and ensure steady revenue (without revenue, they can't produce stuff and the game dies). There have been retcons and expansions to the lore in every edition since the 1st edition. WH40K actually saw a major refresh in terms of the Primaris range replacing legacy Adeptus Astartes. Each faction sees a re-design at some point. The Aeldari that we know now started as piratical/mercenary Space Elves in early 1st edition and transitioned to the craftworlders later on. The Tyranids were vastly different in 1st edition and included subjugated races such as the Zoats. The Adepta Sororitas saw a significant refresh recently (with more expansions/additions coming). Feral/savage Orks have existed in the lore for years (at least as early as 2nd edition), so it's not surprising that we're now seeing them better represented in models.

 

This is nothing to be worried over.

never said it was something to worry about.

 

How ever, I started the hobby in '98 and left it roughly around '11-'13 before coming back in '20.

 

I wouldn't say that a range refresh ever occurred until 8th Ed.

Updating a few sculpts here and there, introducing new units here and there, but I'd say the closest thing to a range refresh that's occurred before 8th maybe the introduction of the 3rd ed marine sculpts, but again that seems like simply updating sculpts...and even that wasn't something that happened for every army until now...dark Eldar went what? 15+ years with the exact same models and units?

 

While I don't like AoS, I'm not saying "AoS treatment is an inherently bad"

And yes I understand that AoS rules are much closer to 40k now than WHFB's rules were, and at one time the two universes were clearly connected, but they spent a long time separating the two, and it now seems they may even be reconnecting them.

 

So ya, I think 40k is getting the AoS treatment, it's up to everyone else to decide if that's a good or a bad thing.

[Warhead01]

I'm not overly concerned about the idea of 40K becoming more like AoS.  On one hand 9th is very much like the current edition of AoS as far as I can tell. 
About the Orks. When I played AoS I did play Bonesplitters. I was sad that they merged them with the other greenskins but never continued to play as I couldn't find the time. I sold my army to a good friend and he told me about something like Waaaugh points. Or what ever it is from their newest army book. It sounds like an interesting set of mechanics and I could go for that. I do agree about the similarity of some of the Greenskin models in AoS and these new snagas. It is easy to see that this was going to happen because of the digital sculpting. Why not reuse a sculpt and change it up a bit if you can get away with it. I'd imagine it saves money somewhere. I'm not sure if these Saggas will be a supplement or a stand alone book or part of the next codex right away.  Being in two books is probably the way to go for GW and maybe for players. It might be more digestible as it's own Ork army rather than part of a book packed with so many units as the Ork codex is.  And armies can be drawn from more than one codex now days. 

Snaggas just seem like a modern version of the old Feral Ork list to me. ( so far.)Best part of that list wasthey could actually shoot having a better BS than regular Orks back then. 
 

[Noserenda]

Dark Eldar would beg to disagree, Genecults too and arguably a good few others. GW has always done range refreshes and revived old concepts from time to time and doing a snakebite update is very much in this wheelhouse.

Not sure what you mean by drastic fluff changes though? 

[Ryltar Thamior]

While there have been some rather drastic fluff *progressions* [so yes, changes - but not .. we're nuking the previous setting to make way for the changes ... even though Cadia may beg to differ!] - I don't think that Age of Sigmar can or will happen to 40k. 

Either in a fluff setting or in a gameplay space - I mean, there's no real parallel for shifting from the ranked mass battle to quasi-skirmish (and then to .. well, larger than skirmish whatever it is now) for 40k over the recent past; even though yes, there's been a reduction in army-size and play-area required over the past few editions. 

I don't dispute that you can say these new Orks are closer to an AoS release in some of the aesthetic - but honestly, I put that down to the sculpting techniques they're using nowadays [all CAD all the time] as much as anything else. 

I must confess - I was a little bemused at this new unit, because I could tell they were clearly 'suppposed' to be Boar Boyz , but evidently, there are no more Boars involved. 

Except then I thought about it for a moment, and considering the general nature of the Orcosystem , having boars springing up doesn't really seem quite so logical. Having Squigs which *work like boars* , and presumably look like pigs , ... well, yeah, ok, sure, that. 

As others appear to have said - what you're seeing here isn't really an AoS-ification. That would be a jump forward into the unknown with In (Trademarkable) Name Only resonancy value to the setting of old. 

This is quite different - a mirror image going the other way, if you will. It's a jump *backward* into the *previously known* ... but with some different aesthetics and substantive considerations to breathe new life into a previous concept - but still resurrect said previous concept , even *if* it's in new flesh, rather than replace it outright with something completely different. 

I'd say this looks arguably less "new" and unprecedented [i.e. AoS-esque] in this regard than the various Necromunda gangs we've got these days relative to the Necromunda gangs of the 90s. 

[Halandaar]

I wouldn't say that a range refresh ever occurred until 8th Ed.

Updating a few sculpts here and there, introducing new units here and there, but I'd say the closest thing to a range refresh that's occurred before 8th maybe the introduction of the 3rd ed marine sculpts, but again that seems like simply updating sculpts...and even that wasn't something that happened for every army until now...dark Eldar went what? 15+ years with the exact same models and units?

 

I can't really understand how you managed to namedrop Dark Eldar in a statement about range revamps not existing until 8th Edition; they are the example people point to when talking about what a range revamp entails! Their entire model range was completely scrapped and replaced back in 5th Edition.

[Doghouse]

I personally don't think it's getting the AoS treatment as much as I see it as all their major products as a whole are being cleaned up and made more marketing friendly while at the same time solidifying their IP.

 

I see it as more of a product of the rebranding of GW that we've been seeing over the last few years.

 

But I don't think Snaggas will become the new norm for an Ork reboot, I think it's like the vehicles they released a while back, an addition to the range rather than a rethink with a focus this time on the more bestial and tribal aspects of the Orks.

[Rik Lightstar]

I really like the idea of the SquigHogs or whatever it is they're called.

 

This is actually a really nice way to update and revitalise units to my mind.

 

There's clearly a call-back to the old 40k Boarboyz here, and the older models can surely be used as these guys they just have hairier SquigHogs.

 

It's nice to see that GW aren't railroading units into a particularly Klan too. Sure most Evil Sunz are Speed Freaks and most SnakeBitez are Snaggas. But if you wanna do Bad Moonz with some Speed Freaks and Snaggas that's an option too.

 

Rik

[Marshal Rohr]

They’re harmonizing how they release things. It’s all jacked up right now as the fix their supply chain and get the kinks out at the new factory but like Lumineth getting such a disjointed release over two years (and terrain not being available to the US) won’t be the norm. Instead you’ll get some kind a expansion, a few things, and then another expansion and a few more things. They aren’t interested in redoing old kits as they’ve said several times on Twitch.

[Bryan Blaire]

If what you mean by “AoS treatment” is “lore is progressing and new ideas are being introduced”, then 40K started getting that long before AoS came along.  It was really slow, but it’s always been happening.  When I started in late ‘94 (or it may have been the first few weeks of ‘95, my buddy and I bought it with Christmas money), there was no such thing as an Ironclad Dread, Dark Eldar, or Tau.  If anything, 40K had already changed more before AoS came out and blew up WHFB - two new races that I can recall (Dark Eldar, Tau) came out by what, 4th Edition? and we’d already lost a couple as well, one of which has now come back (Genestealer Cults, although they were different then - don’t remember any more if it was a full standalone army, and Squats).

 

If what you mean by “AoS treatment” is “everything about the game setting we knew has been blown up and a totally new setting introduced”, then no, that hasn’t and isn’t happening.

 

Even the factions haven’t been changed to totally new things like much of AoS factions have.  Nothing like Tomb Kings to Ossiarch Bonereapers has happened either.

 

You actually have to be able to define a thing before you can say “Yes, it’s happening” or “No, it’s not” - “AoS treatment” isn’t a term people can reference a definition of.  Seriously, if the closest cross-overs are “factions that have a similar source/background” like Orks/Orruks and Elves/Eldar, I think we’re doing just fine.  The future of 40K is secure in ever more new, detailed models.

 

I don’t understand why people keep harping on this idea.

[WrathOfTheLion]

The terrain thing is a supply disruption issue, they made the right call to continue onward with their schedule and fill it in whenever they can in North America.

 

I personally like the AoS release model, where 3-4 times a year, they do 6-8 kits for whatever faction. If we had that down packed for 40k, even with a token primaris one, Xenos and Chaos would be mostly updated within 9E. The focused releases of AoS I think does more service, because it ends up with at least most of a line being relatively consistent in age.

 

The nature of it all though is that some things come and some things go, and when a line is updated they'll do a mix of updating old kits and adding new ones. Some things, like Penitent Engines for SoB will end up as a dual build kit with another datasheet.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Dark Eldar would beg to disagree, Genecults too and arguably a good few others. GW has always done range refreshes and revived old concepts from time to time and doing a snakebite update is very much in this wheelhouse.

 

Not sure what you mean by drastic fluff changes though?

i mean the fluff of 40k has been static in the 41st millennium.

The great rift, return of primarchs on both sides, Dante being put in charge of half the imperium are drastic changes to the lore compared to historical lore changes which were almost always 'in the past' from where the lore currently was (that Armeggedon event being the only exception I can think of but even then it might have still been 'in the past')

[Bryan Blaire]

The only real “forward progress” event was the 13th Black Crusade/Eye of Terror campaign in 2003 - which would have carried the entire game setting forward, but was set aside for a long while, to be returned to at the end of 7th and moving everything forward into 8th with an altered end state than the campaign that played out.

 

So again, pretty big changes were in motion then that would have altered the setting, if GW had chosen to move forward with it - prior to AoS.  It was a somewhat false start, but the changes to the setting were already set in motion 14 years prior.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

If what you mean by “AoS treatment” is “lore is progressing and new ideas are being introduced”, then 40K started getting that long before AoS came along. It was really slow, but it’s always been happening. When I started in late ‘94 (or it may have been the first few weeks of ‘95, my buddy and I bought it with Christmas money), there was no such thing as an Ironclad Dread, Dark Eldar, or Tau. If anything, 40K had already changed more before AoS came out and blew up WHFB - two new races that I can recall (Dark Eldar, Tau) came out by what, 4th Edition? and we’d already lost a couple as well, one of which has now come back (Genestealer Cults, although they were different then - don’t remember any more if it was a full standalone army, and Squats).

 

If what you mean by “AoS treatment” is “everything about the game setting we knew has been blown up and a totally new setting introduced”, then no, that hasn’t and isn’t happening.

 

Even the factions haven’t been changed to totally new things like much of AoS factions have. Nothing like Tomb Kings to Ossiarch Bonereapers has happened either.

 

You actually have to be able to define a thing before you can say “Yes, it’s happening” or “No, it’s not” - “AoS treatment” isn’t a term people can reference a definition of. Seriously, if the closest cross-overs are “factions that have a similar source/background” like Orks/Orruks and Elves/Eldar, I think we’re doing just fine. The future of 40K is secure in ever more new, detailed models.

 

I don’t understand why people keep harping on this idea.

dark Eldar predate 4th they were definitely around in 3rd.

 

Most of what you're referencing is the first round of development. New lore was created, but wasn't moving the timeline forward. New units were created but they were variantions of old things.

 

II started in '98 during 3rd edition, and was involved in the hobby to various degrees until around 2012-13, and in that time period there has not been any changes in lore, or rules that even come close to what occurred with 8th Ed and the new story progressions used to enable it.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I personally don't think it's getting the AoS treatment as much as I see it as all their major products as a whole are being cleaned up and made more marketing friendly while at the same time solidifying their IP.

 

I see it as more of a product of the rebranding of GW that we've been seeing over the last few years.

 

But I don't think Snaggas will become the new norm for an Ork reboot, I think it's like the vehicles they released a while back, an addition to the range rather than a rethink with a focus this time on the more bestial and tribal aspects of the Orks.

what you just described is what happened to fantasy. They cleaned up their mainline, and solidified their IP, while making the game easier to market...

[Bryan Blaire]

GW blew up a game (WHFB) to make a new one (AoS).  It has completely different rules from the previous one, and a different setting.

 

That hasn’t happened to 40K.  The game isn’t new, but the lore is being moved forward, however, the setting is still the same setting, just with progression.

 

If all you mean by “getting the AoS treatment” is moving lore forward, then yes, that’s what is happened.  I just don’t agree with your definition.

 

———————

 

 

 

dark Eldar predate 4th they were definitely around in 3rd

Well, I definitely said “by what, 4th Edition?” Hence I acknowledged that one of them was out before then - I was around for the DE intro in 3rd Edition.

 

Dark Eldar were introduced in the 3rd Edition starter box.  Tau were introduced in 2001.

 

The Eye of Terror campaign “moved the lore forward” in 2003.

 

Then GW rolled the clock back some (different claims on why), then in 2017, let it start ticking again.

 

———————

 

There have been several rounds of new units released just for Space Marines that weren’t around from 1998 on - things like flyers and Centurions are not variations of old things.

 

Things have changed in 40K for a long while - yes, you are right, this accelerated starting in 2017, but it isn’t new.

 

If you are hanging your hat on that - and?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

GW blew up a game (WHFB) to make a new one (AoS). It has completely different rules from the previous one, and a different setting.

 

That hasn’t happened to 40K. The game isn’t new, but the lore is being moved forward, however, the setting is still the same setting, just with progression.

 

If all you mean by “getting the AoS treatment” is moving lore forward, then yes, that’s what is happened.

 

And?

they literally blew up a significant chunk of the setting, and the rules are vastly different from 3rd-7th editions.

So yes it does resemble what happened with the transition between WHFB and AoS.

[Bryan Blaire]

We said the same thing about the rules shifts from 2nd to 3rd Edition, and the changes around 7th Edition were also reminiscent.

 

I guess GW AoS’d 40K back in 1998 too when 3rd was released.  Except that it isn’t a whole new setting like AoS is vs. WHFB - isn’t now, wasn’t then.  WHFB to AoS was drastic - in 40K, the setting was progressed, and in a fairly logical fashion.

 

What’s old is new again - changing rules.  There was another big change in 40K rules back in 6th/7th - detachments, overwatch came back, etc. - why was that not the start of AoS’ing the game, if major rules changes Is what it takes?

 

It’s all about perspective.

 

—————————

 

I will ask again - and?  You’re clearly convinced they are AoS’ing 40K - do you have some predictions for the future of the game, since this is supposedly about the ‘future of 40k’ (in the title)?

 

I mean, they definitely 40K’d WHFB to AoS - Sigmarines, etc.  I guess turnabout would be fair play, but what will merge appearances?

 

Ossiarch Bonereapers and Necrons? - again, Necrons already had the appearance and the Tomb Kings took on more of the fused appearance like Necrons when they transitioned to Ossiarch Bonereapers.

 

A lot of the armies already had analogs and shared basic appearance origins - it only makes sense that they look a bit alike.

[Lexington]

I would say that 40K's already been "AoS'd" since at least 8th Ed's beginning, and arguably previous. I mean, obviously, the basic holding pattern and storyline of 40K was completely obliterated with the return of Guilliman and the appearance of the Rift, but there's also subtler changes that've been implemented. More and more, factions are coming under the sway of singular "supreme leader" figures. The fantastic and the supernatural have come into more prominence, while the more sinister and "hidden" parts of the setting have waned. Most of this is just moving with the culture, taking cues from explosive cinematic universes and video game franchises more and more while relying on real world and literary sources less and less.

 

I don't like any of this. It sucks and it's bad! But the new Orks don't worry me. They're just the old Feral Ork concept being brought back and welded onto the existing greenskin army list. If anything, Orks have stayed Orks more than any other faction in the game.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I would say that 40K's already been "AoS'd" since at least 8th Ed's beginning, and arguably previous. I mean, obviously, the basic holding pattern and storyline of 40K was completely obliterated with the return of Guilliman and the appearance of the Rift, but there's also subtler changes that've been implemented. More and more, factions are coming under the sway of singular "supreme leader" figures. The fantastic and the supernatural have come into more prominence, while the more sinister and "hidden" parts of the setting have waned. Most of this is just moving with the culture, taking cues from explosive cinematic universes and video game franchises more and more while relying on real world and literary sources less and less.

 

I don't like any of this. It sucks and it's bad! But the new Orks don't worry me. They're just the old Feral Ork concept being brought back and welded onto the existing greenskin army list. If anything, Orks have stayed Orks more than any other faction in the game.

dont think the new orks are anything to worry about, I just noticed they looked a lot like the orrucks.

[Lexington]

dont think the new orks are anything to worry about, I just noticed they looked a lot like the orrucks.

That they do, but GW's Ork/Orc/Orruk concepts have always been linked. Kev Adams did quite a lot of the designs for the originals in both the Fantasy and 40K lines. Brian Nelson started revamping the greenskin image in the late 90's with his work on the old WHFB Boar Boys and Big 'Uns, then took that same evolution over to GorkaMorka, and finally did the big 40K refresh in the early days of 3rd Edition with another refinement of the same aesthetic. It's all one clear line across all of GW, so I don't see this - just this, of course - as anything besides business as usual.

Edited March 22, 2021 by Lexington

[Doghouse]

 

I personally don't think it's getting the AoS treatment as much as I see it as all their major products as a whole are being cleaned up and made more marketing friendly while at the same time solidifying their IP.

 

I see it as more of a product of the rebranding of GW that we've been seeing over the last few years.

 

But I don't think Snaggas will become the new norm for an Ork reboot, I think it's like the vehicles they released a while back, an addition to the range rather than a rethink with a focus this time on the more bestial and tribal aspects of the Orks.

what you just described is what happened to fantasy. They cleaned up their mainline, and solidified their IP, while making the game easier to market...

 

 

Yes, I just said that they are doing that to the entire company. It doesn't mean Snaggas are proof 40k is turning into AoS.

 

I'm sorry but everyone had this conversation four years ago and moved on, the sky is still not falling even after another edition has been added. :)

[MARK0SIAN]

I have to admit, when I first saw the snaggas I thought they were for AoS. I do feel like the two systems are increasingly sharing similar design concepts/principles. If you look at some of the characters in particular some of them wouldn’t look out of place in the opposing system. Things like the Lord Discordant, void dragon, the triumph give me a very AoS vibe. Then there’s things like the sanctum which is a faction terrain piece like armies in AoS have.

 

It often feels like AoS is a beta for 40k in some ways. I’m not saying that’s good or bad but it’s definitely making them feel more and more similar than they ever have in the past. I think this is not helped by the speed at which AoS seems to get new factions and range revamps compared to 40k. I don’t follow AoS too closely but in the past couple of years they’ve had what 3/4 new factions whilst 40k has had no new factions but some in depth revamps of armies which have imported those design similarities I mentioned earlier from AoS. I think that has also led to the idea that the two systems are getting closer and closer.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

I personally don't think it's getting the AoS treatment as much as I see it as all their major products as a whole are being cleaned up and made more marketing friendly while at the same time solidifying their IP.

 

I see it as more of a product of the rebranding of GW that we've been seeing over the last few years.

 

But I don't think Snaggas will become the new norm for an Ork reboot, I think it's like the vehicles they released a while back, an addition to the range rather than a rethink with a focus this time on the more bestial and tribal aspects of the Orks.

what you just described is what happened to fantasy. They cleaned up their mainline, and solidified their IP, while making the game easier to market...

Yes, I just said that they are doing that to the entire company. It doesn't mean Snaggas are proof 40k is turning into AoS.

 

I'm sorry but everyone had this conversation four years ago and moved on, the sky is still not falling even after another edition has been added. :)

...no one said the sky was falling...